I went to a woodworking show at Seattle’s Woodcraft over the weekend and met with several very nice venders from companies like Shapton and Delta. However, when I tried to speak with the representive from Lie-Nielsen, he ignored me for about ten minutes even though I tried several times to ask him some questions about a number 5 I was planning on buying. When someone else came to the the table, he immediately started to speak with them and let them try the planes they were interested in. I felt this was very rude and definately turned me off from their company (thanks to Lee Valley for providing an alternative). I’ve read a few other posts of people saying that representitives from LN had been rude at shows. Is this a common occurance with LN? Just wanted to blow off a little steam.
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Replies
The L-N representative is usually Deneb Puchalski, a guy about 30-35 years old. He is very knowledgeable, and reasonably friendly. He does know the capabilities of the product line, so he is the one to talk to. Look at it this way..how would you like to keep all of those planes razor sharp and be away from home for many weeks at a time?
Well, this weekend, the guy from Shapton was sharpening his planes for him (BTW, thanks to that guy for the free sharpening lessons. His techniques were very innovative and I'm excited to try them out).
I have several LN tools, and I've been very happy with them. However, I've never tried one of their bench planes. All of my bench planes are antique Bedrocks I inherited from my great grandfather. My bedrocks are all tuned up and have Hock blades and chipbreakers. They're capable of taking very fine (1/1000th of an inch) shavings.
I was mostly interested in seeing if it was worth replacing my 605 which I use the most but is over 100 years old. I don't want to write LN off, so I wanted to see if anyone else had had experiences like this with them in the past. I think at this point it is safe to say the 605 will stay, if only out of principle. But theres always new tools to be bought.
CherryDust,
So what did the Sharpton guy have to share??? I've watched the demo but anxious to learn more....ok, please
Cherrydust
I have an almost complete set of bedrocks, as well as a pretty good set of Lie Nielsen planes, spokeshaves, both saws, etc..... I now keep the bedrocks in a display case, cause the LN's are imho better. Everybody I know who has a Veritas bought it because it was cheaper. They are very nice planes, but not as good as an LN.
If they were both sitting on a table, and free, which would would you grab!!??
I say, if you don't like the salesman, then buy it online, or go to Woodcraft for one of their 15% off sales (like they just had by me 2 weeks ago!)
Not getting something because of the rudeness of the salesperson, is like going to war with a knife instead of a bazuka cause the gun dude was rude to you!
My .02,
Jeff
I canna vouch for conduct at trade fairs.... nor for the capabilities of ye aulde bedrocks.... but I've a few L-N bench planes that've been worked hard these past few years....
if that #5 you're thinkin about performs anything like my #5 1/2, you'll be capable of taking that same 1 thou shaving.... against the grain.... awesome finish....Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
Keeping the planes razor sharp and being way from home for many weeks at a time is no excuse for rudeness(if thats exactly what happened). No one forced him to take the job and he can quit anytime he wants to if he cant handle it.
Life's short- I don't deal with rude people, don't buy their products, don't care what their excuse is-
AMEN, Brother!
I have always found Deneb to be very helpful, and while matter of fact and down to business, quite personable. Hopefully there was some kind of misunderstanding. I certainly support your need to be treated with respect and decency.
Charlie
a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts,
build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders,
cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure,
program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly.
Specialization is for insects.
- Robert A. Heinlein
Cherry,
Without being too frank, I guess one needs to figure why the LN rep was friendly with all other strangers, except you? There could be a missing bit of information here...
Personally, I believe one individual, who is probably only an employee, should not be allowed to spoil an excellent company. If you were really serious about this, you should have taken him to task and managed upwards, until the matter was resolved.
Willie
Well, one of the reasons I posted this message is that I've read in the past where people felt employees of LN had been rude to them. I've contacted them once about a saw I had bought. During that interaction, I felt the customer service had been very good. That said, when I left his table, I was certainly feeling a little insulted. Perhaps it was because I am younger (I am in my mid-twenties) than the older customers to walked up to the table. Perhaps he was hard-of-hearing and didn't hear me asking him questions. Who knows why he ignored me. I certainly don't. But asking him wouldn't have done any good (he didn't answer any of my other questions). Also, Just-for-the-record, he was an employee of LN, not Woodcraft. There was no management to bring this up to.
And as to the person that commented on how woodworking shows are a waste of time, I felt most of it was time WELL spent with the vendors demonstrating their techniques. The guy above that was asking about Shapton. He made use of only the outside edges of the stone to keep the stone from from dishing. This technique required him to do it without a honing guide and he showed myself (and others) how he holds the blade and the arm-movements he uses to make it work. Furthermore, he had a magnafying camera where he could show us close-ups of the blade as he progressed through the grits (like the ones shown in sharpening books). However, he could also show what it looked like when one of the attendees made a mistake sharpening the blade. I don't think that was a waste of time at all.
Furthermore, there is nothing wrong with wanting to try out a tool before you buy. And where else, except a ww show, is that going to happen.
Woodworking shows?
What a waste of time, IMO
Stay home and build something. If not that, go to a museum and study a furniture masterpiece. If not that, study a masterpiece in a book. Do something besides milling around figuring out what tool you'll buy next.
Edited 10/10/2005 4:13 pm ET by charlesstanford
Stay home and build something. If not that, go to a museum and study a furniture masterpiece. If not that, study a masterpiece in a book. Do something besides milling around figuring out what tool you'll buy next.
I agree.
This is ridiculus to both of you. I have multiple projects I am working on, I'm not sitting around thinking about what tool to buy next. I have an antique plane whose sole has been lapped thin enough that it needs replacing. That's a legitimate reason to consider buying a new plane. Furthermore, I think it is very hipicritical that someone who apparently sits around writing offensive newsgroup posts rather than building furniture would make a comment like that.
Sorry if you found it offensive.
Quite right! I actually had stronger words in mind.
In any case, I have more LN's that I should have ... I can't help myslef. I have dealt with the company directly on many occasions for all types of matters, including a broken lever cap wheel. They have always been excellent. I cannot speak to the rep, though.
You won't be disappointed with anything you buy from them, I would predict. Good luck.
"Do something besides milling around figuring out what tool you'll buy next." So, in this day and age, where else is he going to go to actually lay his hands on a specific line of hand-planes that he's interested in using? Certainly not his local Ace Hardware. Is he supposed to simply order the plane, for however many hundreds of dollars, and hope it's of the expected high quality. You and Charles might consider letting people set their own priorities. Cherrydust is, after all, an adult. A young one, granted, but an adult nontheless.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
It's a free world, and he can do whatever he wants. He asked for opinions, and I gave mine. Just like you are entitled to give yours.
The entire point of hand planing wood is the connection between craftsman and wood. Not how big of a booth the plane manufacturer had. It's easier to blame a cheap iron, than look at the true source of the problem. Ourselves.
Michelangelo painted the Sistine chapel with nothing more than brush, lantern, and wooden scaffold. The plane doesn't make the piece.
Actually, I never asked for you opinion, I asked if anyone had had a similar experience with Lie-Nielsen. Furthermore, it really doesn't matter if I "rubbed the guy the wrong way". His job is to get me to buy expensive top-of-the-line handplanes. Not make judgements about me. Furthermore, I don't see how me standing their asking questions about planes would rub him anyway... (let-alone the wrong way). Finally, his booth was not busy at the time. For a while, there was one other guy there trying planes and that was all.
Is he supposed to simply order the plane, for however many hundreds of dollars, and hope it's of the expected high quality.
Jamie... I understand what you're saying... that said, buying blind is exactly what I've had to do in order to get my L-N's. The first purchace involved months of soul searching, research and countless raw nerves that endured right up until the plane was unwrapped. With each subsequent purchace my faith in their ability to excell my performance and quality expectations has been reinforced. That faith extends to their customer support too... superb after-sales support...Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
Ain't this rich - Jamie, the preeminent defender of Grizzly no less, advises to lay hands on L-N before buying.
"So, in this day and age, where else is he going to go to actually lay his hands on a specific line of hand-planes that he's interested in using? Certainly not his local Ace Hardware. Is he supposed to simply order the plane, for however many hundreds of dollars, and hope it's of the expected high quality."
Thanks for the laugh, ForestGirl.
Edited 10/11/2005 4:36 pm ET by charlesstanford
Ain't this rich - Jamie, the preeminent defender of Grizzly no less, advises to lay hands on L-N before buying.
<chucklin...
nooo...I'm nae bitin... ;P~
seriously.... L-N's prices have a hellova pucker factor to them, and if you've yet to use one in anger, much less buy one, their price alone will cause a ton of caution...and rightly so.. I mean, they're pretty damn serious prices...
As for whether they're worth it... I doubt if anyone is qualified to say one way or another, that's a decision that has to be made by each and every individual buyer; only they can say whether the use / benefits they gain from the tool were worth the impact on their pockets... in my case (and no doubt there's others too) it's a no brainer... but there's plenty others who feel different, no doubt from the obligation to fulfill other commitments...
L-N's are quality tools, nobody's saying any different... they're a tool that's capable of lasting quite a few generations... the decision to buy one (or more) shouldn't be made lightly... says he speaking as someone who can't write off their cost as a tax deductible...Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
....as someone who can't write off the cost as a tax deduction".
Laddae, ye cannae have it both ways-are you declaring the income from the odd commission here and there?(is the pope catholic)?
You can do one of two things:- 1)get the taxman to understand that it is a hobby-and therefore is exempt from tax, or
2)Generate a material income from woodworking which will mean that it is now "part of your income earning structure" and therefore eligible for various capital allowances and deductions.
If you really get it right, you will make a tax loss in your woodworking business, which is useful for reducing your tax liability from your employment income....( a tax loss is not the same as an accounting loss).
I may be taking a bit of a flyer on this-but I'm assuming that the Blitish system is similar to what I studied when under the yoke of 5 years article clerkship , when Rhodesia was a country, and had the same system basically as the gentlemen to your south.Philip Marcou
Laddae, ye cannae have it both ways-are you declaring the income from the odd commission here and there?
Woahhhh now, stop the bus.. you sayin I can get paid for doing this..??????? Mannnnn.... I wish someone'd told me that years ago.... hell, I'd settle for recovering the cost of the materials....
Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
Edited 10/12/2005 3:07 pm by Midnight
If a salesman is rude or arrogant toward me, I will not buy his product. There are exceptions, but normally, I find something else.
Grits
Has anyone noticed that CDust is no longer reading his messages, and wandered why?Philip Marcou
If the kid had money in his pocket ready to spend he should not have been completely ignored or dismissed by the guy in the booth. No doubt about that. However, unless this guy is also in charge of manufacturing and quality control I hope CherryDust will buy the L-N plane he was wanting. The likelihood that he will be disappointed is remote and he will have long forgotten some guy in a booth after enjoying many hours of happy planing. And more importantly, he can get on with his pursuit of woodworking. Believe it or not, there is a point at which one can be finished buying tools and certainly this applies to accumulating a kit of bench planes.
I would not go to a woodworking show expecting a lot of personal attention no matter how much money I had to spend at the time. I would imagine that the logistics of this sort of affair really precludes that sort of attention.
I imagine these guys are set up to do a fairly canned demo and then answer basic questions from a lot of interested people. The unrealistic expectation of an inordinate amount of attention may have been nothing more than a subconscious excuse not to buy in the first place. I would imagine the guys who work these booths develop a pretty good batting average when weeding out tire kickers. Not batting a thousand, but I'd bet they're close.
Interesting little debate that has formed up here. By way of analogy,...
I like Martin Guitars, an American company that is somewhat similar to L-N in terms of quality and custormer service, except Martin has been doing it since, I don't know, the civil war, or something. I've owned a couple Martins (including one bought in a music store in Sapporo, Japan, of all places, when my address was an aircraft carrier) and any time I've had questions, I just called 'em up there in Nazareth, PA, and got taken care of. Now if I was at some guitar dealers show and Martin had a booth set up and they had the old Eric Clapton signature D-28 out there with it's mother-of-pearl bindings and gold trim (and ~$4000 price tag) I would certainly expect the representative to be nice to me while I tried it out. But it might be that he had heard the beginning of "Tears in Heaven" one time too many that day and just couldn't muster up a smile and say, "Nice chops! You sound awesome on the EC sig!"
Now the curmudgeon side of the issue is: Just freakin' learn to play better, dude. Stop mopin' around the Martin booth looking at gutars you can't afford and hook up with Esteban. For, I don't know, five easy payments of 29.99, you can get a good guitar, learn how to play like that guy and start rockin.' Maritin will be there when you need them.
Good points, both. One thing for sure, in the American marketplace today, you are selling image and customer service as much as the physical product.
Ed
I can’t believe this thread is still going......
Why did he not pay attention to you,,,, or,,, Are high end plane makers born arrogant , or is it part of their training? <!----><!----><!---->
Or It could be......<!----><!---->
He is blind in one eye and that was the side you approached him from , he had a horrible breakup with someone whose parent looked just like you... you subliminally asked him in a tone that flashed him back to his overzealous third grade catechism instructor..... he can only read lips and you have a mustache..... He is tone deaf in exactly the pitch of your voice. He was so jetlagged that he could only talk to people from his native time zone. His coffee had worn off so long ago that he thought he was talking to you but missed. You are so stunningly handsome that he had to avert his eyes in order not to fall under your spell. A guy who could be your twin brother just spent an hour with him trying to trade in his rusty Montgomery Ward planes. He is hopelessly in love with the Hitachi girl in the next booth and simply cannot focus. He is dyslexic and responds to people in exactly the reverse order they came in.... your only hope is to enter again.... In a company of metal-smithing engineers, he is the best they got. <!----><!---->
Or he could be struggling to do the best he can through the fog of attention deficit disorder, emotional scarring, and cultural or sexist , ageist ,bias that afflicts so many unconsciously. Or maybe he has foot long hemorrhoids that constantly distract him..... Or an unbelievably short attention span. <!----><!---->
Point is,,,, who knows???? Who cares??? He's just people,,,, and under a different circumstance you guys could be best buds. People are not perfect and they are not always in top form and the needed reaction may not be forthcoming. There is an art in creating the interaction that one needs from these mere humans. Because of the previously mentioned low expectations, one should be rarely disappointed and often amused. Vanna White already has a job, so we are left with these people and might as well cut them some slack.<!----><!---->
LN tools are wonderful. You are probably grabbing your butt over how expensive these things are and want to be spoken to in a soothing yet authoritative voice that would give you the confidence to actually lay out the dough. Firm handshake,,, look you right in the eye,,, yes,,, you are worth it,,, yes ,, good tools make a huge difference and are a joy to use, and yes , the quality of your work will improve. Even if you bought this plane just to hold and admire, it would be money well spent. Your significant other will see the light and delight in your eyes and will wish they had known to buy one for you a long time ago. You will be the envy of all your woodworker buddies and you will speak so highly of this tool that even people who haven't a clue will wish that they had your passion and skill. <!----><!---->
I never met any of the LN people..... They have a great line and can be proud of what they do and how they do it. Looking at the care that goes into the tools, I find them to be a bargain. I don't have the #5 but I have the low angle block and jack and look forward to using them every day. I am the envy of those who do not own these tools, and have sold a lot of them simply by letting these poor outsiders take a swipe at a board, feeling the difference a fine tool can make.<!----><!---->
<!----><!---->
Have any of you spent any time in a booth at one of those god-awful shows? It is pure hell, pardon the expression. The people in the booths would rather drive a tanker thru Baghdad than be there. After carting in the booth, setting up, bad food, bad beds, bad traffic, and the normal snafus in a consumer obsessed society, the lowly booth guy is all jolly and eager to see all his new best buddies.
A steady onslaught of the sweating masses, all paid dearly to get in the door to - do what? - pay more to buy more things. All feel they each have the defined and personal right to collar you and finally determine which router is REALLY the right router or what glue is the One True Glue that all real woodworkers are sworn to not disclose - even if it takes 2 hours to do so. Most of the patrons of such shows would rather talk wood than cut wood, and it gets real old, real fast. Then they want it at 20% off!
I have been to AWFS with a hundred K in the pocket and had a hard time getting any personal attention. It is a time to kick tires, look around, see what is available and make contacts for more serious one on one later on.
Of course, L-N are some of the finest products to be had off the shelf. If that isn't good enough for you, order one, try it and if you don't like it Send it back - they are cool.
Cut the wood, don't worry it to death.
I feel better now.
Hitai and acornw have got it just right. These are the only two posts that need reading here. Get over it. Were talking medium price hand tools here. Buy them, use them, enjoy them. Believe me, if all companies had the good intentions of the Lie-Nielsen organization, it might be a better world.
At the Chicago show last February, L-N was the only reason for a person to even walk around the room...unless you were there to buy a Little Giant ladder that folds fifty different ways...they were there too. At least the Lie-Nielsen product offers some real and lasting value.
"L-N was the only reason for a person to even walk around the room..."
Well, QS, I guess I can infer from your comment (above) that the Hitachi Girl wasn't in attendance at the Chicago show in February!
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
Since when are their (good looking) women (excuse me Forest Girl) at woodworking shows? Actually there was a girl in the L-N booth that wasn't half bad. Kind of had that Maine back woods earthiness. None of the young babes that work for the big tool makers were there, because most of the DeWalts, etc. boycotted the show. The only thing curvy that caught my attention were some nice manganese bronze polished castings.
>He is hopelessly in love with the Hitachi girl in the next booth and simply cannot focus<
I figured it out - this is exactly what happened.
He met the Hitachi girl on the plane to the woodworking show. Girls that look like Gwyneth Paltrow AND know how to convert motor amperages to horsepower just slay him - he has no defense against them. They talk of careers, pets, and amusing college romances on the plane and arrange to meet at the Tiki Tiki bar for cocktails after the first day of the woodworking show. Her eyes are warm and full of promise. He can think of nothing but the Hitachi girl. The morning of the woodworking how he surreptitiously (he hopes) watches her bending over the green SCMS to adjust the laser marker. 'Momma Mia!' he thinks. He cannot focus. He doesn't even hone the plane irons that morning, figuring, 'Ah he--, these things will sell themselves anyway.'
Later that afternoon, he sees the Hitachi girl talking on her cell phone, seemingly in a state of rapture. 'What the hey? Not good!' he thinks. Still later, the Hitachi girl comes over and says that she's sorry but she will not be able to make it to the Tiki Tiki Bar for cocktails because her boyfriend has surprised her by flying into town for the weekend. He tries to be suave and debonair, murmering, "Oh there's a boyfriend in the picture? Well you guys have fun, ya hear." The Hitachi girl even pulls a photo out of her purse to show him. He looks at it with feigned interest, but the image burns into his mind - 'THIS is the guy who my Hitachi girl loves. THIS schmuck!'
His heart is not into the rest of the woodworking show, or even the rest of the weekend. Just then, Cherry Dust walks up, looking,....remarkably similar to the Hitachi girl's boyfriend.,....
So there, Hitai, got it all figured out - the mystery is solved. Cherry Dust, stop being P.O.'d we got it all figured out,...
Ahhh,,, you've seen the hitachi girl..... I was going to get a poster signed once but did not want to stand in the river of drool that had formed in the queu.
You could not get the direct attention of ANYONE in her vicinity,,, it was hilarious.
So this hitachi girl is for real...I have not seen her-please send picture now.Philip Marcou
<<I have not seen her-please send picture now>>
View Image
Yeah that's her,,,, only more blond,,, and more cleavage,,,, in fact more everything except feet and ears.....
I don't go to WW shows to buy tools, or even to drool over them. I go to watch and learn. I can't think of anyplace where you can learn more on multiple topics in a single day for only a few bucks. Last year, after I had learned so much the year before, I took a stool and sat next to the Lie-Nielsen booth for hours watching Deneb answer questions and demonstrate tools. The benefit was profound. No book, and no video can teach as much as fast. A single book, or a single video costs more than the price of entry, and neither of those can clarify themselves by answering questions. As far as studying a masterpiece goes, you can see what was done, but you can't see how; and you certainly can't see what tools were used or how they were maintained.CharlieA human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher
a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts,
build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders,
cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure,
program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly.
Specialization is for insects.
- Robert A. Heinlein
Now you're talking.
I've been to a few shows, and I found nothing that useful.
You're pointing out the exact reason I'm hoping to take in the WW show in Seattle in ?April? -- I can't be an apprentice so the few chances I get to rub elbows with people who really know woodworking, I'm not going to miss. I may end up on a chair right next to yours. :)
In spirit, anyway; I'll be in Denver, on a different weekend...: )CharlieA human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher
a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts,
build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders,
cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure,
program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly.
Specialization is for insects.
- Robert A. Heinlein
"Stay home and build something. If not that, go to a museum and study a furniture masterpiece. If not that, study a masterpiece in a book. Do something besides milling around figuring out what tool you'll buy next.
I agree."
Totally disagree with you!!!!!!!!
At his age, when not building furniture, he should be chasing women, in a restored Corvette and enjoy life, before it's too late...........
LOL.
When I was in high school I worked to restore a basket case '68 GTO. Sold it 4 years ago when I started my carpentry buisness.
Stay home and build something. If not that, go to a museum and study a furniture masterpiece. If not that, study a masterpiece in a book. Do something besides milling around figuring out what tool you'll buy next.
I agree...............
I don't,now what?
Dunno, if you're not building something now, designing your next creation, or studying your next reproduction then exactly what are you doing that has anything to do with woodworking?
Oh, I'm sorry I forgot - planning a tool purchase. How fulfilling.
For we tool junkies, very fulfilling indeed.
At the moment I have a bookcase to do,2 bedside cabs and put beds in a friends horse truck.
Can I assume you are one of these people who like do everything the hard way?
Can I assume you are one of these people who like do everything the hard way?
I don't know, CAN you?
You MAY assume anything you please.
Thank you very much.
I don't,now what?
Are you going to be waiting for me after school?
Are you going to be waiting for me after school?
I thought we might go to a tool shop and just browse.
LOL.
Only if you'll hold my hand. ;-)
Whether you like it or not the way you dress and present yourself will get you more respect from folks. If your dressed in the same t-shirt you stripped that rocking chair in and have stained threadbear jeans and barefoot sandles on, you don't exactly look like you'll buy something. I frankly can't believe the way some folks dress when they are out in public, and why is it the more flubber the less clothes! Yikes..... cover that thing up for gosh sakes.
Anyway take a few minutes, shave (or trim) put on some clean slacks and a nice shirt, shoes that match and see if you get a better reaction next time..... for what it's worth......
I'm not sure why this was addressed to me, but I agree 100%.
Being self employed I never know when I'm going to meet a possible customer. I'm usually clean shaven, collared shirt tucked in, no jeans. Same with my vehicles. I keep my work van clean inside, and out. I think people have an easier time trusting someone that is well kept, and well spoken.
Just this morning, someone asked me for a business card while I was loading groceries into my van.
I agree with you about getting more respect from SOME salespeople, but the good ones don't worry about appearance. I know someone who owns a printing company(that does many millions of $ per year) and after putting in about 12 hours maintaining his machinery, he went to a local BMW dealer to look for a car. The salesman dogged him like he was going to steal something and made this very clear. The printer went to another BMW dealer, looked around and after being treated as well as if he was all gussied up, told the salesman that he would take one in black and another in dark blue metallic(for his wife). He then went to the original dealership and drove up to the salesman in his new 6 series Beemer and thanked him for the "information" he had given. I have spent a long time in sales and customer service, which has taught me that worrying about how someone looks can have little to do with if/what/how much they will buy. Preconceived notions can have bad effects, like this thread and all of the bad-mouthing. If Deneb said or did something to alienate someone, there could be many reasons for it, including a basic incompatibility. My point here is that if someone is there to sell things, the appearance of the potential customer should have nothing to do with the presentation and attempt to close the sale. If the person is covered in something that reeks horribly(hey, it does happen), I could see a reluctance to approach them. Re: flubber and less clothes- hopefully, they aren't wearing Spandex.BTW- the original poster of this thread said about 50 posts ago that they were leaving. We're talking to each other and the wall now.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
True the original poster is not in the discussion, but many others are. I'm going to come back with my comments about the trend of this discussion, since we are talking about a specific individual from Lie-Nielsen. At the Chicago show last week I ask Deneb and his sister, from Lie-Nielsen, if he was aware of any internet discussion about him. I don't know him well, but I would guess that he is not a computer geek the way some of us are, and I doubt that he reads any chats or forum posts. He is busy doing his job and traveling to the next show. I do think that he would care if he thought that he had offended anyone.
I am going to take exception to many of the posts in this thread and suggest that this forum should stay away from attacks on any individuals, since the person who made the original comments bailed out early on, and we only got his side of the story. I would go so far as to totally discount his position. In any case he was the only one there at the time, and the rest of you, who dont know Deneb Puchalski from a hole in the ground, are really not in a position to speculate about the circumstance.
As far as general comments about rude sales people, I hear you. As a sales professional myself, I always try to stay polite and calm even when customers are being rude and unreasonable. There is no place for disrespect or rudeness in the business place. I have always found the staff from all of the vendors at the Woodworking shows to be very accommodating, even more so than at some of the woodworking retailers in my area.
I didn't check out early. I spent several days on this thread. I refused to continue in the mud-slinging. When people stating it was because of the Hitachi girl, attacking me and making assumptions about the way I dress, I found this thread to be counter-productive. People wanted to defend the company's actions rather than discuss similar experiences. I think I got my answer. Most people seem to think the company has treated them well. But several other people have felt the way I did.
I didn't make this original post to to cause so much contraversy. I was asking if other people had had a similar experience. Lie-Nielsen is a company I respected a lot because of the quality of the tools I own from them. Their reputation is very good. However, in my only face-to-face experience with them, I felt I was treated poorly. Deneb may not remember me as I'm sure he saw a lot of people that day. However, I did go to his booth and I did spend 15 minutes trying to get his attention and failed at that. In the end, he failed to make the sale.
FWIW, I went to the L-N booth at the Portland, OR woodworking show this weekend. I can understand how this guy might rub some people the wrong way. He's not a professional salesman, but rather a subject-matter expert. Given the emphasis of L-N's marketing image on high-end tools, they are probably better off with this type than with a salesguy.
When I first went to the booth it was pretty crowded and I couldn't get any mindshare. I left and cames back when it was empty.
" He's not a professional salesman, but rather a subject-matter expert."I think you're right. I never thought of Deneb as a salesman. And I have learned MUCH from him, just by watching and answering questions. He IS down-to-business, but that seems typical of a certain type of person who is attracted to the trades. And I think Lie-Nielsen expects the performance of their tools to be the selling point, not relying on salesmanship to get the job done. Deneb's job, as I see it, is to teach those who buy how to setup and maintain the tools, and to demo a well setup and maintained tool to everyone.No argument against CherryDust's need to feel respected either. CharlieA human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher
a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts,
build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders,
cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure,
program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly.
Specialization is for insects.
- Robert A. Heinlein
Come to think of it, I don't think Deneb does any selling at all at the shows. There is usually a young lady (his sister) that punches in the sales at a laptop and pulls the item from stock. She unwraps every item and shows it to the customer for approval. Again, superb customer service all the way. About a week later you get a formal paid invoice from them by mail. Charlie you got it just right in your assessment of the situation. I'm glad the original poster came back to life, too.
I think you're right. I never thought of Deneb as a salesman. And I have learned MUCH from him, just by watching and answering questions. He IS down-to-business, but that seems typical of a certain type of person who is attracted to the trades. And I think Lie-Nielsen expects the performance of their tools to be the selling point, not relying on salesmanship to get the job done. Deneb's job, as I see it, is to teach those who buy how to setup and maintain the tools, and to demo a well setup and maintained tool to everyone.
Yup, and I think the personable, attractive young woman with him is supposed to handle the sales/customer-service aspect. 'probably a pretty effective 2-person team. If CherryDust only experienced half of that team, that may explain part of the problem.
I claim post 100 in this thread-- which seems to have wended on around the houses for far too long, ha, ha. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
In my own defense, I can only be held accountable for 2 percent of the posts in this thread...CharlieA human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher
a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts,
build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders,
cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure,
program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly.
Specialization is for insects.
- Robert A. Heinlein
And I haven't posted at all.
D'oh!
O.k. To get to the bottom of this, I propose we gather information:
How old is CherryDust? People are calling him young, but I don't recall him referring to himself that way.
What is the definition of young?
How old is Deneb?
What was CherryDust wearing?
What time of day was it?
How exactly did he attempt to get Deneb's attention?
Was Deneb's sister present?
Was the show crowded?
How many items does L-N typically sell at a show?
Is L-N aware that there have been over 100 posts about this situation?
Has anyone asked Deneb his version?
Until we get answers to these questions and more, people, we're not going resolve this. So let's get to work.
I just read all 103 posts in this thread just for the off chance that this Deneb character would tell his side of the story.
I doubt that he would respond. I'm sure that he didn't intend any offence, but these things just happen sometimes. He probably doesn't even remember the event. This really shouldn't be a big black mark on Lie-Nielsen, now if everybody had horror stories...<!----><!----><!---->
One of my first jobs was in retail. I had gotten numerous positive written comments from customers. One day a woman came to my area, and although I thought I tried my best she left unhappy. She felt she had gotten a lack of attention, and reasonably so. It was a busy day and I was alone rushing from customer to customer trying to make everybody happy. She had come to us with a reasonable expectation of service and however unintentional I failed to provide it. After all these years the only reason I remember it is because a comment was written to the the store manager, with specific details the day after.<!----><!---->
However as we can see a (probably) unintentional incident can generate a huge amount of comments and discussion. My suggestion for the original poster would be to write to Lie Nielsen directly. I think most companies can appreciate constructive criticism. It's the best way to get closure on this issue.
Buster
Well, I'll be happy to give Denenb's side of the story - he wasn't there. I just found out about this thread today or I would have responded a few dozen posts ago. The 'woodworking show' was actually a store event at the Woodcraft in Seattle, and the person in question was a Woodcraft employee, not a Lie-Nielsen employee. You can be sure I'm going to share this thread with the owner of the Seattle Woodcraft store! As most of you know, I take the way our people treat our customers very seriously indeed. Thanks for all the positive comments about LN and Deneb and Teale, who do a great job demonstrating our tools all over the country.Happy woodworking,Thomas Lie-Nielsen
Stick a fork in this thread, it's done. :)
Best laugh I've had on this forum!
You might want to have a chat with the management of the West Allis, WI store, too. They don't exactly have what I would call a staff with extensive retail experience. I have been in various areas of retail for most of my life with formal training and it seems like some of the people at that particular location are either relatives of the owner or just there to take up space. They aren't usually too enthusiastic about your tools either, going by the responses I have gotten when asking questions. They sold the Dovetail saw months ago and still haven't replaced the display piece.I spent quite a bit of time at your booth last winter when I went to the WW Show here(in Milwaukee) and I thought Deneb did a great job of demonstrating and they both answered every question I had. The local Rockler store is worse, but your tools aren't sold there.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Apparently, I owe Lie-Nielsen and his company an apology for assuming this was one of his employees. It turns out this wasn't an employee of LN or of woodcraft. Since all the other booths I visited were manned by employees, I assumed the one with the Lie-Nielsen banner on the front was the same. Sorry for dragging your name through the mud.
Cherry Dust
I attended the Edmonton (Alberta, Canada) woodworking show this weekend and had the pleasure to meet Rob Cosman. An amazing person, and an amazing woodworker, a credit to Lie-Nielsen. In my opinion he was the highlight of the show.
I watched him do a handcut dovetail demonstration. No test fitting and a perfect joint. He also has a hand cut mortise and tennon demonstration that I was not able to attend, but would have loved to see.
I'm going to the Calgary show next weekend. I'll look out for his demonstration.
Andy
A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butchera hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts,build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders,cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure,program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly.Specialization is for insects.- Robert A. Heinlein
I am an insect,never knew it.:>)
You don't say in any of your post if you are a man or woman. As a woman I have had salespeople look through me and talk to any man who walks up. I have been a carpenter for 20 years and when a salesperson blows me off or talks down to me, I move up the ladder and explain to their boss why my money is walking out the door.
This happens a lot less these days--but it still can happen.
Well, I guess it's not your aftershave.
I too found them to be somewhat cool, until I pulled out the credit card, hum....
However, the planes are the very best, (better than my old Bedrocks), period
If you still decide to go with a LN, give this site a visit. It's the only place I'm aware of that consistently has LN planes for 15% off. Usually ends up being cheaper that buying at WW show prices after you factor in the cost of admission and gas to get there.
http://www.finetoolj.com/ln/home.html
Waddaya mean it wont fit through the door?
I have a shop full of cheaper tools I've put lots of work into to make them work well, and a few LN tools. Perhaps you met a rude person or just rubbed him the wrong way; we all expect the extra mile from salesman - they are trying to get our money!
That said, the LNs I have have lived up to all the hype you'll read on this forum about the necessity of buying high end tools. Do you need the best of everything to do good wood work? That's one question that can foster quite a bit of debate on Knots. Whatever your answer, it's clear to me from their feel, their look, and how they work, that the LNs ARE the best in every tool type they make.
I am a real L-N fan but they should have someone at a show that as a minimum doesn't leave a potential customer feeling he/she has been rudely treated. Heck, why go to a show with someone like that. Unless there was such a crowd that the rep could only give personal attention to one or two at a time(and you are not the one or two), whether your young or not, you should not have left with a negative feeling about the Company. In a tight situation he could have said something like, " I am sorry I can't be with you right now but I will be with you in a minute." Usually, someone who does this for a living can pull this off; if not, they shouldn't be in that business. An excellent technician doesn't necessarily make a good salesperson.
I have a bunch of LN tools. Almost all are simply superb. I had trouble with the chisels with the handles coming off. When I called the factory about them I was connected to Mr. Lie-Nielsen himself who wanted to know what the probalem was, asked me to send them back so they could fix or replace them and was extremely interested in producing good tools for happy customers.
My question is, are you going to be using the tool or the saleman?
Stephen J. Gaal
I'm curious what they told you about the loose handles. It looks to me like they are just a dry, friction fit of the tapered handle into the matching taper on the tang of the chisel. I don't think there are any adhesives involved. I've been wrong before...just ask my wife.
By the by, I visited Lie-Nielsen in Maine this past summer and they were very hospitable. I even got to see some of the machineing processes. I also got some sharpening pointers and handson experience with tools of my choice. I had to chuckle when they had me test a plane on some curly maple. I don't have that kind of material sitting around to test.
Fun trip, and yes I bought something.
Nice picture, I try to head to New England every summer for a bit of fly fishing. Of course, there's the obligatory stop in Warren at the Lie-Nielsen shop for this year's tool.
You bet. I first got there some years ago when Peter Korn opened the Center for Furniture Craftsmanship and we visited LN as part of the course, and I've been back since, as well. But the only "fish" I know about in those parts come with big claws and turn red when you get them in a restaurant. Beautiful area, though, and I'd like to get to know it better. Did you ever visit one of the woodworkers there or one of the boatbuilders? Jim
They are a press fit. The replacement set works fine.They are a good company to deal with, in my experience, and they make great tools. And for the price, they should.I hope that person who asked the original question isn't so turned off by the responses, including mine, that he doesn't come back. I've gotten some very helpful information from this site.Best wishes.Stephen J. Gaal
I know what you mean. Some people get way too into these threads.
CD,
Sometimes people just have conflicting chemistry. It's possible that you could have unintentionally said or done something that rubbed the LN rep the wrong way. I'm not saying his reaction was excusable, but I would definitely expect him to be human - human failings and all.
Life's too darned short to harbor grudges and ill will toward others.
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
CD -- I do think it'd be appropriate to take this up with the folks at LN. Might be time-consuming to work your way up the ladder, but they need to know about your experience. Like many others, I simply won't deal with rude people. It could be, as suggested, you ran into some age discrimination. The guy (sorry, forgot his name) needs to be reminded that everyone deserves consideration, even the young, and that sometimes young people spend money!
Way to stand up to Charles and his friend. Does the term curmudgeon** come to mind? That's the polite form anyway. :-)
**An ill-tempered person full of resentment and stubborn notions.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
If CherryDust is young than I quadruple my admonition to study furniture and art instead of the L-N tool line.
When he gets ready to build his masterpiece, assuming he is able, the tools will be there.
Everybody's fixation is on the tools.
Mere tool ownership does not the craftsman make.
FWIW, I unhesitatingly recommend anything from the L-N line. Anything. Buy it straight from L-N itself and don't worry. If for some reason one is not happy, they will make it right.
If the bloke has the bucks then place an order and start building.
I'm dropping out of this thread now since all we are doing is throwing smut around. I think I've discovered there are a few people on here whose posts should be ignored, and I'll certainly be trying that feature out now.
It's up to you, bro.
If you're interested in the craft then you can do a lot worse than L-N when it comes time to equip your operation, their booth personnel nothwithstanding.
If you're more comfortable with another manufacturer then great. I've yet to have a client spec a brand of tool they wished a project be built with.
Go build something or study how to build something, or study how somebody else built/designed something. Learn a little art history. Again, the tools will be there when you're ready.
If you get uncomfortable at the admonition to not worry about the tools as much as the art then that's one of the first signs that it's all about the tools.
Your passion is misplaced if it is not about the decorative arts but more about bronze over ductile iron or cryo blades over non-cryoe'd blades.
Edited 10/11/2005 4:18 pm ET by charlesstanford
You seem like the kind of guy who would flash your bright lights at a person just as you pass them, thinking that you are proving a point.
Derek
And you?
And me, what? Would I flash my lights at someone? No, those people piss me off.
Derek
Well, I guess I've pissed you off.
I'll probably lose sleep tonight.
CherryDust, I too can say that I attended a show and the person manning the Lie-Nielsen stand was less than appealing to me, but he perhaps found something less than appealing about me too.
However, I know my way around handplanes well enough having used all sorts of them over the last thirty years or so and a wee bit of a personality clash made no difference to my opinion of Lie-Nielsen tools.
Lie-Nielsen do make very good planes and other tools and I believe you can buy them with confidence (sight unseen even) and if there are any problems-- which seems to be rare by all accounts- they'll sort it out for you.
Never mind your spat with Charles. He and I are mutually grumpy and curmudeonly buggers, ha, ha, but he often has information worth reading and noting. I've enjoyed lurking in this thread up to this point. I do always like a bit of friction to improve my day! Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
CD, hopefully you're still checking in. You're on the right track with the ignore button (you can always view his/their response if there's some indication it actually contains useful info in it). I too hope you don't dump the whole board due to a couple of .... wellllll, I won't go there. Anyway, due to the occasional unpleasant and unhelpful responses to your post(s).forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
FG,
I am shocked to hear you refer to Charles as a curmudgeon! I wouldn't have been able to come up with so kind a term to describe his, er, antics ; - )
-Jazzdogg-
"Don't ask yourself what the world needs. Ask yourself what makes you come alive, and go do that, because what the world needs is people who have come alive." Gil Bailie
Tssk tssk,
All this talk about a young man, in the prime of his life, feeling insulted by a fellow selling LN Nielsen hand planes.
Actually, I had exactly this same problem with Stanley's Bedrock sales representatives on each occasion I met them in person, only difference was that I was much older than the original poster. This was in 1902, when I was in my mid 40's. I can therefore not use the excuse that they ignored me because I was young.
I was so insulted by this matter, that I designed my own plane and built it. My name is "Victor" but more about that later.
So, to make a looong story short, at the next woodworking show, I set up a booth right across Bedrock, this I believe was in 1903. I challenged them to a planing match in public, where we took the time to hand plane 300 bd ft of prize Chestnut. (This was before those little men came and planted bugs which destroyed this national species)
I won the match, by cheating, some 100 years later, it's no longer a risk to tell the truth. But this is what I did, to win the match and plane 300 bd ft all into perfect 0.001" shavings taking only 15 minutes. Bedrock never finished the job by the way, this is why they lost.
I thoroughly rubbed the plane and the Chestnut with Vaseline. Because Chestnuts are part of the nut family and petroleum jelly works so well on nuts, this had to be a winning story. (I believe KY jelly was only invented many years later, after all the nuts shrunk and almost completely died.) The second trick was to hone the blade, until it was very thin, meaning it is impossible to dull. Some day LN may find this secret.
The results of the competition is shown in my picture, because my name is Victor and my plane worked so well Stanley bought the design. They called it the Stanley Victor and marketed it some 50 years later. This remains the best plane made in all history and it's performance has never been surpassed.
Willie, correct me if I am wrong, but as far as I know, the Victor is now out of production, due to mounting production costs and quality constraints on materials, in particular the timber which was being used for the handles, and the cast iron, which had reached the maximum cement input allowable. The accountants came up with a new model, called the SSSStanley Handyman, and this in their view solved the cost of sales problem: fibre glass lookalike was chosen for the handles and a new type of cast iron borrowed from North Korea solved all problems with the question of flat bottoms, so irksome to users in the west: one simply places the new plane from the box straight onto your workpiece and gives it a couple of firm clouts with a rubber hammer, making it conform to the workpiece. I believe some of them also will accept an upgrade, in the form of Bailey irons , machining tolerances permitting.
These are only available at woodworm shows, for the moment, so gentlemen who spend a lot of time in museums had better switch on.
One other snippet-I have been told that the salesmen, although gaily dressed, speak with sibilance, not because they are English boys, but because the size of each plane is designated by the number of S's-i.e a #4 will have four S's....Philip Marcou
Jamie, You are absolutely correct in <The guy (sorry, forgot his name) needs to be reminded that everyone deserves consideration, even the young, and that sometimes young people spend money!>There is no excuse for rudeness but the better way than with more of the same is to be clever about telling the rude person he is missing his sale. Sometimes people need to relearn their manners......even adults. Chances are both sides of this equation could benefit from the exchange. aloha......
I can sympathize; I have no experience with LN but, have had this happen occassionally in the past. It's especially annoying when you have money in your wallet ready to spend, and you feel like it is for a discriminatory reason. I take consolation in the thought that I'm a middle-aged white male, and it happens to women and minorities alot more. It used to happen to me alot more when I was young.
It sure is a stupid thing for the vendor. ~20 years ago my wife and I were touring the Santa Ynez valley and got pretty blatantly ignored at the Firestone winery. I don't think we've bought a bottle of their stuff since.
I have read the post, and thought that I should offer my experience. I attended a woodworking show back in March and the LN booth was one of the main reasons I went. Deneb was the representative, and he helped me immensly. Just for the record, I am 20 years old. I felt no negative attitudes coming from him the whole time I talked to him. I watched him throughout his whole demonstration for about 2 hours, and he let me try the No. 4 Smoother for as long as I wanted. I am sorry about your experience, and hope it doesn't happen again. Lastly I would like to say that every time I have called LN with a question or a problem (very rare) they were extremely polite and helpful.
Cherry, I wouldn't be losing any sleep over that-I suspect that you are not assertive enough-and there are ways to get a rep of this sort to pay attention, without making a scene.
Neither would I lose any sleep over the bollicking from Uncle Charles, who huddles all his planes under his workbench, because he can't step over to a nice tool display cabinet, for some reason;-)Museums are permanent things, shows move on:provided you attend with an open mind you can get all manner of benefits.
There are ofcourse some good reasons to lose sleep-as Willie has hinted.
I went to the WW show in Charlotte and had both good and bad experience with the LN guy. It was Deneb. For the most part, he was receptive to people's questions, and gave an excellent demo on sharpening and using one of the low angle smoothing planes. However, when a friend of mine mentioned that he was tuning up some old planes for use and experience, the LN guy seemed to get defensive. His tone of voice changed and he said why? And basically launched into how my friend was wasting his time. The casual observer would say that this is no surprise, after all he is trying to make a living selling new planes. I would agree except for one thing, the LN web site advises new woodworkers to do exactly what my friend was doing. Learn to use planes before you spend lots of money on a better one. This makes sense. You can determine which size planes you need before you buy the LN ones.
Anyway, I was not too put off, but when I went to their web site and saw that they were offering classes at their place in Maine, I thought, that would be cool. But I would not go to the one that this guy taught. Sigh, I did not get the chance this summer, maybe next.
Speaking as a salesman who has done many a trade show ( not wood working ones but from our side of the table they are all the same) the fact that you were interested in buying a tool may not have been accurately conveyed to the sales person for L-N. Now you might think, "so what difference does that make if I wanted to buy or to talk?". To a guy who spend countless hours at these gigs and who answers that same question a thousand times from "tire kickers" it can be understandable that the sales guy gravitates to the guy with the credit card out. It is , after all, a sale at a sales event. In his mind ( assuming of course you didn't actually give him a clear indication of a desire of a sale) he could spend time with you and forget about the guy who just came to the booth or vice versa. Now if it was me Id go for the sale because these guys are either totally or substantially on a commission basis. Now, you might be a great guy and all but when the rent is due the landlord doesn't want to hear how interesting you were at the show. After doing a few of these shows you do seem to develop a sense about who is serious and who isn't. This comes from reading body language. The salesman may have misread you but this may have come to you playing your cards too close to the vest. Salesmen have to deal with people all the time who have an animosity about being "sold" and are careful that they don't give too much information out. If I sound like I am on the hucksters side on this, I am because I have been there more times than I can count and I have L-N tools and I wouldn't trade them for anything.
Wicked Decent Woodworks
(oldest woodworking shop in NH)
Rochester NH
" If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"
Hi- I am new to this group and I was interested in your L-N comments. Firstly I occasionally attend fairs over here in the UK and I find that most exibitors use the fairs to off load dross.
Regarding Lie-Neilsen, I have various L-N tools and have been somewhat dissapointed with the quality of the cherry handles fitted to them, however, when I e-mailed L-N regarding this I received a prompt reply from Thomas Lie-Neilsen and a parcel duly arrived with replacements F.O.C.
I returned the faulty ones to the UK distributor for shipment back to the States
I attended the Chicago show today and Deneb and his sister Teale were staffing the Lie-Nielsen booth. I would have to say that they were very engaging and extremely busy at the same time. Teale was ringing up sales while Deneb demonstrated all sorts of plane techniques and gave a great deal of sharpening advise. It must have been a very long day for them, but they never took a break while I was there (over an hour). I hope this puts to rest any questions of the good intentions of the L-N staff. By the way, it appears that L-N will eventually be offering their own design of sharpening guide. Deneb referred to its development. He has a neat way of registering the blades to the desired angles for sharpening, but this is covered well in other threads here. Maybe I'm prejudiced, but compared to the cheesy commercialization of most of the show, the L-N booth was in a class all by itself.Edited 10/15/2005 8:02 pm ET by quartersawn
Edited 10/15/2005 8:03 pm ET by quartersawn
Nice to hear your assessment of the L-N folks. My experience has been similar.
Get the facts first. You can distort them later. ---Mark Twain
"C'mon! We didn't give up when the Germans bombed Pearl Harbor, did we?"
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Hello.
My name is Michael Egbert and I was the responsible for the Lie-Nielsen demo at the Seattle Woodcraft on October 7th through 9th.
I want tell you that any rude treatment you recieved from me during the event was wholelly unintentional. I do sincerely apologize for not making you feel welcome to talk with me about Lie-Nielson tools.
Please accept my apology and if you would like to email me with any questions that you may have I would be happy to help anyway that I can.
Sincerely,
Michael Egbert
http://michaelegbert.net/
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