HI,
I am hoping some one out there knows enough about Stanley planes to answer a question for me.
A while back I purchased a No. 5 Stanley Bailey plane at a garage sale. It was in good shape and only $12 so I didn’t spend a lot of time looking at it. Recently I decided to clean it up, along with a couple of other used Baileys I have picked up. A number 3 and number 4.
When taking the No 5 apart I discovered it does not have a frog adjustment screw nor any provision for one. The frog is adjustable but without the screw. I thought by definition a Bailey had an adjusting screw. Have I been wrong?
The plane has maroon japaning, as opposed to black on the No 3 & 4. Bailey is in raised letters in front of the knob and Made in the U.S.A. is behind the knob. C466 and 60 are stamped on the frog. The blade adjusting knob looks like chrome instead of brass, as on the 3 & 4 and the rest of the adjusting mechanism looks to be of lesser quality.
Did I just get a inexpensive version of the Stanley Bailey? I have not been able to find any resource on the Web that mentions such a version.
I am not complaining because I am happy with the overall condition and I believe the price was more than right. Also, I don’t expect to be changing the frog adjustment much after I get it set any how. I am just curious to see if anyone knows more about this plane.
Thanks, John
Replies
Dr.,
As you'll see from the attached, several modifications were made to the planes over time. Perhpas by poring over the details you'll be able to date your planes...which also correlates with 'type' of Stanley Plane
BG,
That helped somewhat. I found the doc to be very interesting and made a poiont of saving it for future reference.
The plane I have would definately fit in Type 20 or except for the lack of a frog adjustment screw and the color.
Hi John... one of the fastest ways to identify this plane is to look at the adjusting fork. If it is made of two pieces of metal held together with a hollow rivit, it is the 'home-owner special' that Stanley turned out in the late 60's and into the 1980s. It will work, but you MUST be careful not to force it, as the two legs will spread and no adjustment will be made. I believe that you can salvage a cast iron (steel) forks from a 'junk' plane and it will fit and work. SawdustSteve
SawdustSteve,
It definitely has the adjuster you describe. It works fine now and I will be sure to keep all the surfaces polished and oiled well so there is less chance of spreading the forks. Thanks for the input.
Doc,
Nope, not a Bailey. I'd say it's a Fulton, Shelton or Dunlap. Look at the lateral adjust lever, Baileys will have a lever that has a riveted on tab on the thumb end. The others all use a stamped thing. They are the cheap copies of Bailey's, but if you're happy with it, great!
There are some serious differences between a Bailey and the others, but with enough tweaking, it'll work. Bailey #5's usually go for around that much on Ebay. If you want a good plane to fool with, find an older one of them, and have it sent to Planewood for a tuneup. You'll have $50 into a guarenteed workhorse.
Dirt,
This plane has the Stanley lever cap and Stanley blade and I am sure it was made by Stanley unless it was a complete counterfiet. They just cheapened it as I have seen them do to other Stanley tools over the years.
Next time I will be more observant when shopping but I think I still would have purchased this plane.
Hmmm.... Stanley did make maroon planes for a while, but the ones I've seen are pretty good fit and finish wise. As for the Defiance line, the one I have is black with maroonish wood. I wonder if someone put the Stanley stuff on a Fulton? A photo would probably nail it down if you could?Steve
Ditto on the Defiance line here, same colors...do you know anymore about Defiance tools you would care to share?
Well, I know they are a cheaper version of the venerable Bailey line of Stanley tools. I suppose they saw a market with homeowners or something, but their arrival seems to coincide with the downfall of Stanley's quality. I guess I've never bothered to tune one up, but if you've got a Defiance plane you want to tune, they should work fine, just more work. They lack some of the niceties of the Bailey, like the frog adjustment feature.
The old Defiance line of Leonard Bailey, 1900 or so, is a completely different animal. If you get one of them, its as good as cash to a collecter. They are quite scarce, but they do turn up occasionally.Steve
I have an old Defiance #5 that I have been using for 30+ years and like you said, crude but sound. When do you think they were sold? Mine was my Father's so likely a post-war purchase. I always wondered how they fit into the Stanley's marketing plan and where they were sold, maybe at department stores? I have also seen framing squares and a few other basic tools stamped with the name. The squares are real junk, at least the planes are useable.
I guess I don't know the exact dates, but like you said, after WW2 to probably sometime in the mid 60's? I buy a lot of tools from estate sales, and you kind of get a snapshot of the old guys life by his tools. The Defiance folks are usually thrifty, but not stupid, so you don't get any gems from them, just honest tools.
You mentioned a Defiance square, did the one you ran into have the plastic yet? Stanley really made some crap after the early 70's. I'm too young to know anything first hand about their marketing at the time, but sure seems to me like everything took a quantity rather then quality slant starting in the early 70's and for some things, continuing through today. Although, an argument could be made that some tools a getting much better now.
I think if a guy wanted to get a good plane, cheap, there are better planes to start with. If on the other hand, you get your Dads Defiance, or in my case, Grandpa's cheap old 220, them sentiment alone makes them worth the extra effort. Geeze, now I'm getting philisophical, better call it a night. Have a good one.
Oh yea, forgot to ask if you are a user/collecter of old planes, or just curious? Steve
Yeah, I am a user/collector of planes and a few other tools. Sad to admit that I have the bug. I like Stanley type planes for their ease in understanding and using. If I had more time I would be a bigger collector but that darned work thing keeps getting in my way. But I would like to eventually have one of each Stanley (or quality copy) bench plane. The type of work I do frequently involves repairing or making old "parts" and there are many times when nothing but the "right tool" will make something happen. Machines? Oh yeah, couldn't get anything done without them. But for ultimate fitment and finish it takes hand tools 99% of the time.
No, the Defiance square is a normal size carpenters square made out of steel with so few numbers stamped on it. I think all it has is inches with the smallest division being 1/4 inches. The thing is so blamed out of square as to be worthless.
I do think electric tools are improving and have improved a lot. Just think back to the 1970's when B&D started making that line of tools in the same colors as kitchen appliances. Remember those avocado green circular saws? Or the harvest gold drills with the little 8" orange cord? What size of chuck did they have, 3/8"? Boy those were some hum-dingers. Did you ever see the router in that series? I bet you even owned one of the jig-saws! And people, that was almost all we could get back then!
Anyway, if I could collect anything else it would be "junk" tools from the 1970's...just to make a point. We are darned lucky to have what we have.
After I posted last night, I noticed you said carpenters square. I missed that somehow. I've got a real gem of a try square they made. The blade is pot metal or something, the rest is plastic. It's a beauty.
The collecter bug is fun though isn't it? I'm trying for all the bench planes too, need a #1, and a #2. Ditto on the old tools doing the best job. I like to use old wood molding planes for the details on my stuff. It's fun to hear pople say, "how did he get a router set to do that?".
I do have one of those harvest gold drills! Dang thing still turns. Never saw the router, I bet it's a masterpiece. I was thumbing through an old issue of FWW, 1980 or so, and the prices of tools was amazing. You'd think with inflation, that tools would cost more $ now, but it really dosen't seem like it. The tools listed for the big $ where things like Ryobi, Hitachi, and BD. It is good to be a woodworker now.Steve
I really belive we are living in a golden age these days. We have access to so many tools, materials and customers. When I was a kid we lived in a small town and they had to pipe in daylight. The only wood source was whatever the local farmers could find in their fence rows and drag to one of the few operating saw mills. Kiln dried wood? Whoeverd hear of that?
As far as tools go, I see a lot of people gripe but they have choices too. They could buy Festool or other high end tools so they really are getting what they pay for. To get a bosch 1617EVS for $169 is a serious bargain, it does so much so reliably and it is not harvest gold! We have to count computers as a tool at our disposal as well. I deal with a lot of different types of people and most of them can log onto my on-line portfolio and e-mail me questions. Just amazing.
If you can find your market niche you will find your customers are quiet amazing. Most of mine are of upper (a few middle) class and will pay for what they want. The number of affluent people out there just amazes me. I think I read that 1 in 7 people have access to $250,000 or more in resources. God Bless 'em. And distance means nothing to them, most of my big commisions have been out of county or out of state. Cheap gas and reliable cars mean I can serve a whole region of the country rather then just my hometown. God Bless America!
I still do live in one of those tiny towns, 950 at last count, and you are absolutly right about the importance of the computer as a tool. I'm not a trained pro, but I like to do nice work, and when I need to know something, right here are the answers to most questions.
Information is powerful indeed. My last house was built in 1918 by a good carpenter. Then someone else added on, and on, and on. Each time, someone new, with their own way of doing things. They were each probably the best at the time, but the first builders work stands out still. If there would have been an easier way to pass information on, perhaps my old house would have been a better house.
I got into this "hobby" several years ago, knowing only what Norm said. Thanks to curiosity and access to the answers, I feel pretty confident in the quality of my work. Sounds like you've got a nice group of customers. Someday I'd like to try making a few bucks with furniture making.
If you don't mind, I bet I'm not the only one here who would like to see some of you work?
Have a good evening, and God bless America indeed! Steve
I have (and have seen) a cheaper line of Stanley Planes sold under the name "Defiance by Stanley". They are a little odd and many parts of the planes are throw-backs to older models. Look closely at the side of the tote and see if you see the Defiance name there in the form of a tiny white decal or paint stamp. Never seen any other markings on one. Let us know what you discover.
el papa,
No other names anywhere. The casting is the same thickness and the grain apprears to be the same as my other Baileys. All of the parts except the frog and adjusters seem to be of the same quality.
The mystery deepens.
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