Replies

1. 
   jgaiennie | Feb 06, 2003 07:34am | #1

   >> I'd like to hear from anyone who has completed the procedure to see what kind of results they experienced.

   So Mike, what...? You're not interested in hearing from those of us who don't know what we're talking about.  Bummer.  Man I feel all dejected.

   jdg

1. 
   Marcello | Feb 06, 2003 08:26am | #2

   Me too, I was ready to write up a whole bunch of stuff I know nothing about!!! hahaha

   Seriously though, I didn't know the performance of the saw would increase with the change of voltage.  I thought maybe the machine would run more efficiently, the motor would last longer, and you would save on your electric bill, but that is about it.  I would like to know if vibration or noise is less, don't really know.

   Edit: I do know that the added hp would plow right through some of those cuts that bogs down the motor, causing the blade to stop, like ripping 3" stock.  But then again that may result in added chance or more powerfull kick back.

   Marcello

   Edited 2/6/2003 12:29:23 AM ET by TMARCELLO

1. 
   foghorn | Feb 06, 2003 05:25pm | #5

   In my case, saying I don't know much is simply the truth. Being ignorant however is not the same as being stupid. Hence my visits to this forum where little by little the ignorance is being replaced by knowledge.

   The above doesn't sound/feel right (pedantic, priggish etc.) but I'll let it go as I'm too tired to change it. Back to the voltage question.

   Everything I have read, I have seen it published many times in many places, says that increasing voltage from 110v to 220v will increase the HP on my Delta from 1.5 to 2.0. I have also seen it said in even more places, that more HP- within reason -  is always a good thing where saws are concerned hence the preference for cabinet saws over contractor saws (yes there are many other factors but HP is one of the more significant ones).

   My question is simply an attempt to find out from those who have actually done it what if any difference the change makes in the saw's performance.

   Many thanks for your feedback.

2. 
   foghorn | Feb 06, 2003 05:06pm | #4

   JDG:

   I don't see the connection. Really! I know that it was not my intention to slight anyone and thought I had gone to great lengths to acknowledge my appreciation to those who had responded to my first question of whom you were one of the most significant.

   My question was and is directed at those who have actually done the exercise in the - what for me is straight logic - belief that only they could comment on results based on the best of all possible sources namely actual experience.

   Thanks again for your (always valued) response

1. 
   jgaiennie | Feb 06, 2003 06:26pm | #7

   Mike,

   I was simply trying to inject a bit of sarcastic humor.  Sorry if it's been misunderstood.  I meant no disrespect sir, nor to raise anything uncomfortable. 

   I appreciate the questions you've placed and am looking forward to the replys you get as I too am interested.

   There's got to be a good reason that TS's are wired for 220.  Otherwise, wouldn't they just be all 110?  To me, the simple fact that that option is available is a strong suggestion that there's a significant advantage to it.

   jdg

1. 
   foghorn | Feb 06, 2003 06:41pm | #8

   No problem..

   Your point regarding the mere presence of upgrading potential seems logical to me.

    I sent off a post earlier this morning to Kelly Mehler about this whole topic. I'll share his response when and if. 

2. 
   noone51 | Feb 06, 2003 08:48am | #3

   Mike, first off you won't (can't) gain additional hp by simply rewiring for 220 (which is really 240). And as far as saving current.. you might save a very little bit but not enough for the effort. You will experience faster and smoother starts and each of your (now two) breakers can be reduced in amperage to a combination of the total amperage required for the motor under 120v operation.

   In a normal motor you have two sets of field windings that have specific current requirements. Lets say that each winding requires 7.5 amps to develop the horsepower that the motor is rated at. That would be a total of 15 amps to make things work. With the motor wired for 120v you would require a 15 amp service at a minimum to make the horsepower that the motor is rated at.

   Now, if I wire the motor for 240 I give each winding 120v and each winding requires 7.5 amps. The total is still 15 amps for both windings but I might be able to get the required amperage there in a shorter period of time so the motor may start faster and if demand increases I may be able to get more current there faster so bogs may seem to be less significant.

   So you see, horsepower doesnt increase just the amount of time for current to build. If that is lessend then sustained horsepower is in fact better on 240 than 120 and there is likely an advantage. The result would be less bog and less chance of blowing a breaker.

   As for more HP.. its physically impossible.

1. 
   foghorn | Feb 06, 2003 05:35pm | #6

   You obviously know a lot more about electrical "stuff" than I do so all I can say is that your post is at odds with the info I got from Delta and elsewhere.

   According to their specs, the HP will go from 1.5 to 2.0 while the amps generated drops from 14 to 7 (approx).

   My real question is whether,all other things being equal, a 2.0 HP saw performs better because of the increased power than a 1.5 HP saw.

   Thanks for your feedback.   

1. 
   dmt | Feb 06, 2003 06:44pm | #9

   An estimate of motor horsepower can be made by the formula: horsepower = (amperage x voltage) divided by 746 watts (the number of watts in 1 hp). For  example, a motor rated at 15A running on a 120V circuit would theoretically produce about 2.4 horsepower. However, in practice it doesn't work this way because a motor can't convert all of the electrical energy it uses into mechanical power. Some energy goes into magnetizing the rotor and windings. This is recognized by the use of a power factor, which is generally represented by a 20 percent loss, meaning the motor can use only 80 percent of its rating. In the example above, a closer estimate can be made by multiplying the result (2.4 hp) times 80 percent. The rating would then be 1.9 horsepower. If you do the math and change 15A and 120V to 7.5A and 240V you will get the same answer.

   Motor standards are set by NEMA (National Electrical Manufacturers Association) and are based on the ability of a motor to deliver its nameplate rated horsepower continuously, 24 hours a day, under full-load.

   Machinery manufacturers are not required to comply with NEMA's rating standards and sometimes take liberties with claimed horsepower ratings. Any electric motor is capable of producing far greater power than its continuous-duty rating. For example, a 3 hp motor can actually produce up to about 7 hp for a short time. It will then reach its breakdown point where it may overheat and burnout. On machines that have induction motors the words "maximum developed horsepower" and "peak power output" are marketing words for a motor whose claimed output is near its breakdown point.

   You may want to talk to Delta again to determine exactly what hey meant.Dan T.

1. 
   jeffrow1 | Feb 06, 2003 07:38pm | #10

   I also have the above mentioned Delta motor. The plate on the motor does specifically state 1.5 hp @110 and 2.0 hp @ 220. I think this topic has been beat on other forums. The general concensus has been that the motor was "crippled" at 110v to keep within code limits for amp draw (UL?). I wired mine for 220v though it runs well I have no empirical evidence that it improved the saw in any way

   Jeff

1. 
   RANGERP75R | Feb 06, 2003 09:50pm | #11

   JR

      I got into this topic almost a year ago when I came to this forum and it generated well over 100 post. I have the old marathon motor from Delta and a Delta rep at the International WW show told me the same. Many electricians and EE's responded and no true conclussion was drawn in my mind. The old Marathon was wired as you said to meet code and was a de-tuned 2 HP that operated on 110. When switched over to 220 it picked up the additional 1/2 HP supposedly.

      I don't want to get into this to deep, as it was a heated, raging debate as Steve (no-one) can confirm. The amount of increase in power I detect is: I don't know as I have no way to scientifically detect a difference. Maybe slight, maybe none or maybe just physcological.

   Best I can do I'm afraid. ha..ha..

   sarge..jt

2. 
   foghorn | Feb 07, 2003 02:06am | #14

   Sarge:

   I couldn't agree more re: "going too deep". I just wanted to hear about other people's actual experiences. Like DanT, yours apparently was that there wasn't enough noticeable (to the senses) change to write home about.

   That kind of answer is sufficient unto my needs.

   Many thanks for the feedback.

   Regards,

   Mike

3. 
   RANGERP75R | Feb 07, 2003 03:02am | #15

   Mike

      Before I got the response I did on this forum way back when, I had already wired and connected 220v on what I had been advised by Delta. Keep in mind that if you do it, if you ever upgrade to a larger HP, you will already have eliminated one step.

      I have and old junk saw I bought in a yard sale. With the help of my BIL and the guys at the Delta AL machine shop, we did a little modifying to the guts so I can add a higher HP motor if I chose. You get the feel of what your equipment is capable of and you just know what you can and can't. I have never added the larger HP as a neighbor has a PM 66 I use to muscle thicker hardwoods when I have the need. The cost of the motor would be about what I have invested in the whole saw ($280) including the maple cabinet I custom built with the small shop refrigerator underneath. ha..ha..

      Pretty good old saw as I ground the aluminum tables down to .001 and added a 3 serpentine belt system. The belts are about 8" long, so I don't lose much efficiency. I got a rivving knife and I custom built a crown gaurd.Beefed up the slider a mite also. Added an old Delta 2 HP marathon motor I had from a contractor.  It ain't bad for what used to be a junk Ryobi. I guess one mans junk is anothers treasure. <G>

   Junk-yard saw with a little attention...good luck with your TS

   sarge..jt

   
4. 
   foghorn | Feb 07, 2003 06:31pm | #16

   Thanks for the info.

   Listening to what you and others do around your shops is a very humbling yet still very interesting experience.

   Regards,

   Mike

5. 
   foghorn | Feb 07, 2003 02:00am | #13

   Thanks for your feedback. You gave me the kind of answer I was after and it wasn't the empirical side of things. Your experience was that there wasn't enough change in the saw's performance to notice.

   If I get enough feedback like that, I'll probably still go forward with the project but simply to have 220 available in case rather than to maximize the saw.

   If you get a chance, take a look at my response to Sarge further along.

   Regards,

   Mike

2. 
   foghorn | Feb 07, 2003 01:55am | #12

   Dan:

   Thanks a lot for your response. I found it very impressive and that's not sarcasm.

   If you get a chance, take a look at "Sarge's" post and my response to it.

   Regards,

   Mike

3. 
   glatt | Feb 07, 2003 11:20pm | #17

   When I got my Delta table saw, I wired the motor for 240 volts before I ever used it.  That means I can't compare it to the performance you can expect from 120 volt wiring. Sorry.  My gut tells me that there is no measurable difference in the performance of the motor either way.

    I chose to wire it for 240 volts for one reason.  It is not going to trip a circuit breaker wired for 240 volts.  At 240 volts, it only draws about 7 amps on each of the 15 amp circuits.  Plenty of leeway there.  If I left it wired for 120 volts, it would have drawn about 14 amps from a 15 amp circuit.  There's much less leeway in that situation.  That meant that I wouldn't have been able to run a shop vac or anything else on the same circuit at the same time, and there was a chance that the circuit might trip anyway.  I wanted to be able to have other stuff plugged in, so I wired it for 240.

   Your mileage may vary.