If you switched to a Slider . . . .
I have a PM66 and am very happy with it, but have been inclined to get a SawStop for the riving knife and safety feature . . . . . . but have also been toying with the idea of getting a Felder slider, in large part because i read so many posts praising them, but am still unclear as to all the real or perceived benefits. If you have switched from a cabinet saw to a slider, what has been your experience? Have you been disappointed? Have you been pleased? Would you do it again, or direct the $ elsewhere?
I am a weekend wwkr, hoping to spend much more time in the shop when i eventually retire, mostly doing furniture. Not alot of sheetgoods, and have a Festool and guide for that, but I will do several kitchens for self, friends and my kids over the next 5-15 years.
Thank you in advance, Patrick
Replies
Hi Patrick,
The slider on the Felder, also any other so-called 'European-style' saw, is designed for sheetgoods. Our training is to also use the slider for crosscutting stock safely.
You've answered your question - If you only want a rip saw and can cross-cut solid timber by another means, save the pennies.
Look to a short fence for ripping, not a full-fence like the Biesemeyer, et. al. on the Saw Stop.
Cheers,
eddie
ps/edit: If you're only buying the saw for a few kitchens, then amortise the cost of the saw over a few kitchens - you'll be looking at (guessing) $10000 more in equipment cost split over 5 kitchens, none of which would be re-paid.
Edited 2/23/2009 4:04 am by eddiefromAustralia
Patrick me lad,
A Felder! You don't count the pennies then. :-)
It's incorrect to assume that a sliding carriage TS with a cross-cut fence is only for sheet goods. In fact it takes the place of a chopsaw (unless one wants to cut 10 foot planks a lot).
When I make a piece the TS sliding table is used 50% of the time to cut parts to length, including any with mitres or complex mitres. Very accurate housing joints can also be cut with the cross-cut fence. The other 50% of the time the TS is ripping. The parts that are cut to length are typically planks up to 7ft long and up to 10 in wide - but often smaller of course.
I always struggle to understand how a unisaw style TS can do anything but rip -or perhaps cut small parts to length - inaccurately with a sloppy/short mitre gauge. Perhaps it doesn't and that's why unisaw owners also have chopsaws - or a vast home-made carriage made of mdf that can't do mitres.
If I do need to cut veneered ply or blockboard, the TS sliding carriage will do that too, with no spelching if one uses an 80 tooth 45 degree pointy blade; and very accurately.
*****
There must be good quality machines for sale in the US that cost far less than Felder.....? A Felder is very nice if you can afford one, of course.
If I was an entrpreneur, I would export Scheppachs and Kitys to the US, so you could all have a good-quality sliding-carriage TS for just a couple of thousand dollars instead of, what, $10,000 for a Felder?
Lataxe
Lataxe,
or a vast home-made carriage made of mdf that can't do mitres.
Ahem. My vast home-made carriage can do anything better'n yourn! Just kidding of course. It will easily cut mitres, plywood, 8' boards and I've even ripped short boards with it, albeit no longer than 3'. With its new companion keeper fixture together they cover the TS thus giving it added protection from moisture.
I will admit it took a fair amount of time/work to make and tune, but is well worth the small investment. After using it for several months now it has given me a new appreciation of a slider - they are very nice!
Oh, I didn't use MDF but instead used 1/2" Baltic Birch imported from Russia, or was it Sweden. 'Course I could paint it blue n' yeller.......
May not be the Ultimate Sled but is close enuf fer me.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
Them jigs! I took agin them a long while ago, not least because there's no room in the shed for such things. Also, I resent the time making them that could have been devoted to a nice wee cabinet instead. Also, I like a tool to be a complete thang - a TS without a slider would be like a cooker with no oven.
You must not paint your sled blue and yellah as this might be a first step towards a larger self-delusion. Before long you will be pretending all sorts of other things are something else and then the blokes in white coats come. I know; and have long accepted that I am not Napolean after all - Iam really Ghengis Lataxe, scourge to all [loon alarm].
Lataxe of the anti-jig society
One of the things I like about my Minimax is that it's really a giant jig. I bolt on bits of wood, steel and aluminium (sorry aluminum), with quick clamps and tape, and can make any cut in minutes.There's a key difference between a slider and a sliding table. A slider runs right against the blade (and a few thou above the RHS fixed table), rather than out some distance from the blade. The difference is critical.Malcolmhttp://www.macpherson.co.nz
Malcolm,
You're right about the improvement of a sliding carriage that moves right next to the blade as opposed to one that's attached to the side of the TS tabletop. Mine is of the latter variety but I do often think of swapping it for the same machine (made by Scheppach but brandname IXUS) with one of those better sliders.
However, the "lesser"sliding table/carriage does perfectly accurate crosscuts of all types, as well as panels. That "better" slider would allow me to rip waney edges and a couple of other useful operations; but I find I can do most such cuts on the bandsaw or even with a router. And that IXUS costs twice what my saw cost.
There does tend to be a price premium, even in Europe, for saws with "better" sliders, which also tend to be much more heavy-duty (i.e. meant for professional use). There are one or two exceptions and in fact I nearly bought a Metabo (made by Emco) of the "better" slider type, which is of similar cost, capacity and power to the Scheppach. However, it had an aluminium table and the cast iron table of the Scheppach decided it for me, along with the Scheppach's fold-down extension table (small shed syndrome, you see).
****
There is no perfect saw, if one takes into account price and size as well as versatility, power and safety. But if price/space isn't an issue it has to be a Felder or a Knapp. And such a machine would actually be perfect only if it had a sawstop mechanism added, as even one mistake in decades of woodworking would still leave one regretting the loss of a digit.
Lataxe
"There is no perfect saw ..."A really good reason for owning more than one?I'm about to make the call and buy a Festool circular saw and long guide rail.I really do need itMalcolmhttp://www.macpherson.co.nz
Lataxe,
OK, I'll come clean with you. Yeah it isn't a manufactured slider by any stretch of the imagination, but:
1. It is in my opinion a good alternative for those folks on a limited budget.
2. Provides a safe means for crosscutting/sizing of material. Once you use one it will quickly become apparent how much safer cutting parts can be on a TS.
3. Is a relatively inexpensive way for one to experience the joy(s) of a slider mechanism on a TS. Yes I would now highly recommend a slider after using my imitation one and when I win the lottery......
4. Can be fine tuned to provide a high level of accuracy. This factor might indeed set this approach apart from an integrated slider, depending on the dilligence of the maker. But then again the two most important reasons for making it in the first place were safety and accuracy.
I suppose an aftermarket add-on might gain me the 1/2" loss in blade height but my financial position just doesn't justify it.
As to the space thang I think mine actually takes up less space as the bulk of it sits atop the TS ans when not in use it hangs out of the way on the wall behind the TS. The only thing that does get in the way is the outrigger and am working on a solution to that as well.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
Although I make snorts about all them jigs and Pleistocene unisaws, I recognise that in the North American market as it stands you have little choice but to jig-it, unless you're prepared to shell-out for a Minimax or similar. So you can take my jibes as mere schoolboy sniggrin' on my part. Tee hee.
The truth is I'm too lazy to make a jig; but I do greatly admire the can-do aspect evident in most American woodworkers, many of whom make astoundingly good pieces without even a proper planer-thicknesser! I know some British woodworkers who have every luverly tool and gadget on the market but still make pine junk of the most lumpen kind.
*****
One day, after Belgium has successfully invaded the US, you will not only have proper TS with sliding carriages but also real chocolate and beer as well as criteriums in every town (pedalling madly round and round the town is a much better way to get rid of the angst than firing off a six-shooter). Get the banners of welcome ready now. Welcome Belgian Liberators!!
Lataxe, a dang Ypean
Edited 2/24/2009 9:07 am ET by Lataxe
Gentlemen and you too, Bob ( just teasing ya Bob),
Thank you kindly for the thoughtful responses. I much appreciate the insight.
Patrick
I've never used a true sliding table - so I cannot comment on their pro's and cons. I do, however, have a SawStop with an Excalibur sliding table. Love it.
Patrick:
I have a Felder combination machine (Jointer/Planer; Saw/Shaper). Nothing compares to the ease of use, accuracy and safety of a sliding table saw, with integrated riving knife and overhead crown guard. Whether ripping or cross-cutting, just clamp your work and push your slider. All extremities are nicely out of the way. And, should there be a kick-back, you should safely be on the left side of the blade - well out of harm's way.
You also have a brake that stops the rotating masses in about 3 to 5 seconds (Saw blade, planer and shaper spindles. Open a cover and a micro-switch disables the machine.
I can put a dial gauge on my table and slide a square clamped to the cross-cut fence with no movement in the dial, i.e., the slider and blade are parallel to .001 of an inch.
Make sure you get a machine with an arbor that takes the dado blade. This tool will fit a 30mm shaper spindle and saw arbor. It has insert cutters and makes wonderful rabbets, dadoes and grooves.
The saw shaper combination is nice and with changeable spindles, you can also use it as a router table.
Since you plan quite a lot of projects over an extended period of time, with both sheet and solid stock, a Felder will be a joy to use for many years and you will not have that itch to upgrade!
I have not had the slightest regret with my machine.
Hastings
I'm in New Zealand. I have a MiniMax slider (in storage for over a year - about to get into my new workshop and begin on a new kitchen at al) and I love it. I do everything on it - safely, quickly, accurately, and cleanly. It's a different way of working, but you'd never go back.
Malcolm
Patrick,
I have the Hammer line of equipment. Hammer is a division of Felder and is somewhat less expensive. "Somewhat" being a relative term, Hammer equipment is quite a bit more expensive than typical WW equipment in the US, even high-end equipment. There is a Minimax line at about the same price.
It is well-worth the price. As mentioned above, the sliding table saw is like a giant, extremely accurate, multi-purpose jig. The degree of accuracy, easily obtainable with these machines is fantastic. While they make handling of sheet goods very easy, they are by no means just"cross cut saws for flat panels."
I do everything on the slider that would normally be done on a "standard" cabinet saw, and then so much more. I do all ripping "on the left side of the blade" with material firmly clamped to the sliding carriage and my hands no where near the blade, ever.
The capability of these machines takes safety to a much higher level than found on the design of the "standard" type of machine. The Saw Stop, while a brilliant piece of engineering, and a very well-made piece of equipment is only a work-around to a basic design flaw of all such saws. The operator's hands must come dangerously close to the spinning blade. That's insanity in machine design.
On a sliding table saw, the work is carried through the cutting action by the machine, while the operator controls things from a safe distance. THAT's safety. And there are so many other safety concerns built into the machines.
Get the DVDs that both Hammer and MiniMax offer, spend a couple of interesting hours watching them. You'll be hooked. And then ask as many questions as you need to here.
Rich
I have a Hammer B3 Winner saw/shaper combo made by Felder. Before the slider I used a Unisaw for 18 years. IMHO their is no comparison between a cabinet saw and a Euro slider. I have been extremely pleased with the slider and wished I have bought one sooner. I will say that it takes some getting use to after using the Unisaw but after that I feel safer and the accuracy of the slider is excellent.
Since I rarely cut sheet goods I got the short sliding table, 49"/1500mm. I mostly make clocks, boxes and other small items. The large slider and outrigger would just be too big and cumbersome for me. I also just got the 31" rip capacity. One problem with the 31" rip capacity is that you just get a small steel extension table. I ended up ordering the full length extension table.
The Sawstop is very nice but IMHO I think the slider is a safer to use than the Sawstop. The crown guard is always in use and your hands are no where near the blade unless you use the rip fence. I use the slider to rip most cuts and with the eccentric clamp the quality of cut is excellent. I am in the process of upgrading to air clamps to hold the work piece. I like to use a clamp when cutting as the piece does on move. Also, I think clamping your work piece adds an extra level of safety. A lot of the users on the FOG (Felder Owner Group on Yahoo) use air clamps when cutting. The slider is better than you would think when it comes to cutting small parts. I needed to cut some 3 1/4" squares out of baltic birch for some clock/music boxes. I did this very safely using the sliding table and clamp.
I did not get the scoring option but I did get the dado option. I do not not cut sheet goods very often but I do have a Freud Fussion blade that is excellent for chip free sheet good cuts when needed.
I highly recommend viewing the Hammer or Felder video and trying a slider. Felder will hook you up with someone who has a slider in your area or visit one of the two showrooms in CA. The slider will be more money than the Sawstop but well worth it.
Life is what happens to you when you're making other plans.
When your ship comes in... make sure you are not at the airport.
At the cabinet shop I used to work in we had 2 Griggio sliders. We did everything on them from cutting out kitchen boxes to miters for doors and drawer fronts. If setup properly with the right blade, they are as accurate as any saw on the market. you just have to have the work to justify the cost.
Been using sliders in commercial shops for 35 years. Cabinet saw is only half a saw. Anyone who says otherwise hasn't used a slider. If you can't figure out why ####slider is better...
Takes more room but does a lot more.
Incredibly accurate to 1/64" or better. Replaces a radial arm saw and compound miter saw. Most do not take dado blades but not a problem. There's ways around it or you buy one that takes dado blades. You can get sliders with 4', 8', 10' or 12' crosscutting capacity. All will work fine. SCMI, Rojek, Paolini, Sicar, and many others on the market besides the expensive Martin and Altendorfs.
Patrick,
Co-incidentally I noticed this today:
http://www.woodworkersinstitute.com/page.asp?p=865
This gives an idea of the less costly Ypean TS. Note also the rather poor quaity of the test write up compared to a typical FWW write-up. (Or am I being too critical)?
This next one is badged Record but is the same as the Metabo (really an Emco). I was considering this as an alternative to my Scheppach. It has a "better" sliding carriage but less power and a bigger footprint for the same cutting capacities. I notice it now has a cast iron main table; two or three years ago it was aluminium.
http://www.woodworkersinstitute.com/page.asp?p=616
Finally, here is a Felder. Nice saw! But note the price difference between these and the previous two.
http://www.woodworkersinstitute.com/page.asp?p=495
If you scull about the pages with these "tests" on them, you'll find various other Ypean TS for comparison.
Lataxe
I am going to jump in late and paste a comment made by Traveller.
At the cabinet shop I used to work in we had 2 Griggio sliders. We did everything on them from cutting out kitchen boxes to miters for doors and drawer fronts. If setup properly with the right blade, they are as accurate as any saw on the market. you just have to have the work to justify the cost.
Now I will paste a comment you made..
I am a weekend wwkr, hoping to spend much more time in the shop when i eventually retire, mostly doing furniture. Not alot of sheetgoods, and have a Festool and guide for that, but I will do several kitchens for self, friends and my kids over the next 5-15 years.
If you can justify the amount of the Felder.. if you can justify the amount of space that a proper one takes to do full sheets... then you are indeed a candidate as they will do much... and safely. But.. otherwise you have about all you need currently with your American style PM 66.
I will dis-agree with Lataxe about the sloppy.. short miter gauge. By adding a $50 Incra V 27 to my 5 HP TS.. the miter gauge is not sloppy.. very accurate on miters and I can cross-cut up to around 60" safely with my hands no where near the blade. I chose the Incra without the silly high $$ fence for a reason. The reason is I add a 30" sacrificial wood face which handles most short cross-cuts. I did 60" long stock the other day for a desk top by adding a 72" long sacrificial fence to the face of that. When done.. I removed it in under 30 seconds with a palm.. cordless impact driver.
I do have a SCMS with 14' extension which sizes down 10'-14' stock coming in and over 60" on the rare occasion I need that long of a cross-cut. I may add a second Incra V27 to use in the right miter slot to add a very long sacrificial fence to when needed for over 60". I simply clamp the stock to the fence so my hands do not come even close to the stock and in essence.. just slide it through.
A slider rips the same way an American saw does. With the use of the fence and support left.. front and rear. I can do up to around 16' long on my Steel City TS. A slider properly set up the exact same way can do that also. I can plow trenches (dadoes with the grain without my hands coming near the blade.. I can rip long edge angles without my hands getting close to the blade.
So.... if you can afford the slider you won't have trouble selling your PM 66. If you have the space you can do full sheets as long as you get enough table which requires more space. If you meet all those conditions you should get one but.. if you don't you can safely use what you have to do most of the things with your saw. You already have a means of cutting down full sheets which is better for you and your particular saw.
Good luck...
Sarge..
I use a General Internaional left tilt. Not bad. This gent I went to to pick up some sheet stock, he had a Mini max and his son was doing long miters with out breakin a sweat.Jealously and passion. Me thinks the wee Colleen would not have to attend ripping days!Sell child buy Slider< Sell truck and buy slider< sell self to talk the wee Colleen to buy a sliderYou Lucky lot. When I get a slider you will hear a faint scream of joy, lataxe it will just take a bit longer to get there.By the way my dewalt 12 inch miter saw got a cough and the blade guard was toast. Parts on order. Had to buy a saw. As I live in a small town about 1 hour away from the big city.
I went to my local hardware store. Was pissing and moaning about my miter saw and hoped they may have an old part kicked around no luck.
BUT they did have a Maikita dual slider miter saw 10 inch. HMM stuck in trim mode. As as I showed a real interest. The marked price fell, no manuel no wrench... but $250 off retail!!! Down loaded manuel, have 13 mm wrench, set it up did a couple test cuts, As fine as frog's hair. Bolted it down and just fine. Happy as a clam after a few days I realized it also did the left tilt also. The factory blade is way above par. Once the dewalt gets fixed it is the mobile outdoor horse. This Makita slider is just something like breasts.OOps
That Makita slider is a great saw even at full tilt retail and that "stock" blade is $80 and made by Tenryu!
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Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.~ Denis Diderot
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