Replies

1. 
   Napie | Aug 30, 2008 05:27am | #1

   An L-N #7, it’ll do everything.

1. 
   roc | Sep 02, 2008 02:49am | #5

   I have most every style and more than one of each. No question a Veritas bevel up low angle.If you are a light weight get thebevel up low angle smoother. You can instantly open the throat huge, put in a radiused blade and hog off wood like a scrub plane (but you can not smooth with a scrub).If you are a big person get the low anglebevel up jack. Can do mostly the same work but if you use it all day you will know it.The jointer is a luxury. You will need a long precision straight edge in any case and it will show you where to plane whether jointer, jack or smoother.Get lots of blades so you can grind to fit all those different applications. $40 to $50 each so you may have to sell one of your children but it is worth it. Ok to be honest I don't have kids and so can afford lots of blades. The advantage of many planes is not having to change the set up; you just grab what you need and go.Until I got this down I was always grabbing my little planes to correct the problems the long plane was creating. See the thread on "why is my board always going convex".

1. 
   Napie | Sep 02, 2008 04:25am | #6

   I own a lot of planes including BU types and they are my least used, I don’t care for them very much save maybe on end grain work.  The #7 will do everything I need done.  I have been using planes many, many years and build a lot of pieces without power tools including stock preparation, but hey that is just my opinion.  

2. 
   sapwood | Aug 30, 2008 11:44pm | #2

   You already know this.... it all depends.

   But, I use my #5 more than any other. Or... maybe I use the low angle block plane most...hmmm

3. 
   sjscat | Aug 31, 2008 12:03am | #3

   For a bench plane: a Jack Plane. If you are looking at a plane to supplement power tools: a low angle block plane. I have the LN one with the adjustable mouth and it is wonderful.

4. 
   flairwoodworks | Sep 01, 2008 06:50am | #4

   That would have to be a rabbeting plane.  Why you ask?  Simply put, it's the hardest one to make.

   Chris @ www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com

    - Success is not the key to happines.  Happiness is the key to success.  If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer

5. 
   dkellernc | Sep 02, 2008 04:54pm | #7

   That depends greatly on what you want to do with the plane.  If you're a user that aspires to four-square, flatten and smooth planks with handtools, one hand plane is insufficient.  It isn't that it absolutely can't be done with one hand plane, but it's extraordinarily inefficient, and if you're not skilled, frustrating.  In this case, you absolutely require 2 planes, a jointer and a smoother.  Much better is 3 planes - a jack (a #5, a #5-1/4, or a #5-1/2), a jointer (a #7 or a #8), and a smoother (a #4 or a #4-1/2).

   If you typically sand your boards/finished parts before assembly, and only want something to remove those nasty jointer/planer marks, then a #5 1-2 will work admirably - a smooth plane is not necessary.

   If you do all your straightening/flattening by machine, but hate sanding, than a smooth plane is what you want (a #4 or a #4-1/2).

   If you finish sand your work, and do your edge joints by machine, but want something to flatten boards that are too wide for your planer, then you need a jointer (a #7 or a #8) or a fore plane (a #6).

1. 
   WillGeorge | Sep 03, 2008 02:18am | #8

   This was just a general question I had.

   I have a old wooden jointer WWI vintage? It was my grandfathers and as he told meit was used for making spare parts for artillery guns? He was a Artillery Officer. Front line stuff.. Not the way-back guys as he called them. Somehow he survived.

   I love my old Stanley/Baley #7 but it is a bit heavy and big for general work. Although I use it the most.

   A Stanely #90 that works very well but it will tear-out grain if I'm not careful.

   I have a small handplane that works quite well. A GROZ (India?) I have no idea what it would be called. Fit and finish is lacking but reasonable (No worse than my old Stanley/Baley)  but works very well. Low angle Bevel up blade with an adjustable mouth. However when fully closed the mouth is still a 'bit' wider than I would like. However I have no idea how far it should be able to close. Nothing I could not fix but never bothered to do yet.

   Edit:

   I was thinking of a Scraper plane because I use my hand scrapers all the time (I do NOT sharpen them in the traditional manner). I use a polished AND square edge with NO hook. Yes, I get shavings AND dust depending on the grain and the wood.

   Power tool guy here that does most things on my TS and Router tables. Yes, I have no objection to sanding but would rather use a scraper if I can. AND no objection to ANY hand tool. If will do what my power tools cannot do without making a special jig of just otherwise impossible!

   My real handtools are wrenches and whatever it takes to fix something that moves made out of metal!

   I was just looking for ideas for my Christmass (Yes I know it is spelled wrong, Went to a Cathiloc school when I was little and a Old Nun taught us that and it still sticks!) present I buy myself every year.

   Edit2: On the junk GROZ (India?)

   The bottom to each side (out of the box) was almost a perfect 45 degrees!

   Edited 9/2/2008 7:32 pm by WillGeorge

   Edited 9/2/2008 7:36 pm by WillGeorge

1. 
   dkellernc | Sep 03, 2008 03:54pm | #9

   Will - As I think you surmised from my response to your original question, "what plane do you need" is generally answered by the job at hand and the length of the plane, regardless of bevel-down/bevel-up configuration.

   If you're removing jointer marks from the edge of a board (and obviously want to keep the edge straight), then a plane that's at least 1/4 of the length of the board is desirable, hence the use of a "jointer plane" like the #7 or #8 for cabinet-sized parts.  If you're a model builder, a #5 is a "jointer plane" and a small block plane is a smoother.

   If you're trying to put a finish surface on a board surface by a planer, then a short plane (a "smoother") is ideal, as you really don't care about dips and crests in the board's surface of a few thousandths, but you want all of it smooth.  A short plane will cut all of these features, regardless of their length, which results in fewer passes to get the whole surface smooth.  You can start with a long plane, of course, particularly if absolute flatness is important, but you'll have to take more passes to get the plane to cut a shaving from the entire surface.

   As to whether to get a scraping plane - I find these tools very useful, others I know hate them.  They aren't generally used to make a heavy cut (it's almost impossible to push them with a smooth motion on a heavy cut), so they're often used after a smooth plane on lumber that has heavy curl or is otherwise resistant to planing. 

   My personal opinion is that it's a waste of time to use a scraper plane on a well-behaved piece of mahogany, as the smoothing plane leaves a surface that's ready for a finish, whether film-based or oil & wax.  If I'm using a piece of heavily curled maple, the scraper plane is an incredibly useful tool, as it leaves no frustrating tear-out behind.  And in the case of recently finished project made of honduran rosewood, the scraper plane was indispensable - even my smoothing plane with a 60 degree cutting angle tore the surface badly, a scraper plane was the only thing that worked.

1. 
   roc | Sep 06, 2008 05:29am | #10

   Hi dkellernc,>smoothing plane with a 60 degree cutting angle tore the surface<this stuff fascinates me.What smoothing plane were you using?What method of sharpening? What grit did you take it to?By the by a technique I apply occasionally in this instance that works well is wet the surface of the wood, let it dry/soak in until it looks dry and then plane. Then repeat. When done for the moment must take the plane apart and dry it and oil it or of coarse rust is a problem. Works well for me on rose woods with reversing grain or end grain. Is tricky on purple heart. For last passes got to let it dry a bit more, if a bit too wet wood turns dark grey.

1. 
   dkellernc | Sep 06, 2008 08:23pm | #11

   I tried a couple of my planes (I've got dozens - a bad case of tool collector's disease) on the rosewood.  One is a wooden smoother I made myself with an antique blade.  The blade (not sure I'm spelling this correctly, and I'm too lazy to walk down to my shop to look up the correct way) is a Peugot Ferris.  I'm not real up on French antique tools, but I've been told this brand was the equivalent of a Butcher from the early 19th century.  The other plane I tried was Norris A5 (Original Norris blade) with a back-bevel on the blade that yields an equivalent cutting angle of about 60 degrees.

   Like almost all of my cutting edge tools, these blades were hollow-ground on a Tormek, then honed on Jap waterstones through 8000 grit (both the back and the bevel).  After this initial work (which admittedly takes quite a while), I re-establish the edge whenever needed with a leather strop and honing compound.  That's quick and easy, and the result is ridiculously sharp - it will cut through eastern white pine endgrain like it wasn't there.

   That said, though, all of the stock of Honduran rosewood I have is a nightmare to plane - there are all kinds of swirls and small knots in it that will tear out without almost no coaxing.  My impression is that though the wood fibers themselves are really, really hard, the bond between the fibers is weak, and so it splinters, chips and tears out easily.

   I do use the wetting trick frequently with curly maple, and it seems to work really well, but I never thought of doing it to rosewood.  I had the (possibly mistaken) impression that the oil in the wood would reject all attempts to wet it with water or even alcohol.  But thanks for the reminder - I'll give it a try.

2. 
   roc | Sep 07, 2008 03:49am | #12

   Nice job making your own plane. Not as easy as the books say. And a Norris ! now I am jealous!Tormek: I like sharpening all my blades except the tighter radius on the scrub plane blades. Is the Tormek good for this?I have not planed any wood that was labeled "Rosewood" when I bought it. However I have made some things from cocobolo (I believe this is in the same family) and the cocobolo smells just like roses when I work it!I have not needed the technique yet but have you seen this article by the best dressed man in woodworking Mario Rodriguez ?
   http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesPDF.aspx?id=2665He uses a spiraling round and round technique, for a certain type of grain, as if he were rubbing wax on with the sole of his hand plane.You probaly know this but for anyone else trying the wood wetting for the first time it is a good idea to use distilled water to prevent effecting wood color from elements in tap water (iron etc).

   Edited 9/6/2008 8:51 pm by roc

3. 
   dkellernc | Sep 07, 2008 04:38pm | #14

   Thanks for the note - I'll read the article. 

   Regarding the Tormek and grinding radiuses on plane blades:  To my knowledge, Tormek doesn't make a jig for this specific purpose, though it seems they make a jig for just about every other tool ever invented.  The Jet sharpener (that's basically a cheap clone of the Tormek) does have a plane iron camber jig, and according to David Charlesworth, it can be made to work on the Tormek.

   However, you don't really need a jig to do this.  Christopher Schwarz wrote up a blog entry on doing this accurately, and it works very well:

   http://www.woodworking-magazine.com/blog/Sharpen+A+Fore+Plane.aspx

   I've used basically the same method for quite a while, but I've made several other templates that I use with planes designed to take more/less of a bite with each stroke.  I've one that's a 10" radius (I didn't like an 8" radius - too aggressive), a 14" radius, and a 22" radius.  The 10" radius is on my fore plane, the 14" on a couple of jack planes, and the 22" on my jointer plane.  The smoothing planes I do directly on the honing stones by putting pressure in each corner on alternate strokes (the microbevel on the 8000 grit stone only).

4. 
   roc | Sep 07, 2008 09:08pm | #15

   Good ol' Christopher Schwarz always a pleasure checking out his info. Thank you!I must be trying to do something different without realizing it because all of my 'roller on the hand sharpening stone' type jigs rub on the stone at the roller support legs before I get enough tilt to sharpen the tight radius of a true scrub plane blade so I wind up just holding it on the hollow grind by hand.Perhaps I was unclear my problem sharpening the scrub planes is not getting the edge radius it is getting my honing down on the actual cutting edge without beating up my stones and putting facets all along the edge. Maybe I am getting too focussed on the way the edge looks when I am done. When I am sharpening a lot of blades I like to just get on with it without a lot of concentration.I am about to take my jig to the grinder to get some more clearance. I do have one of the cheep clamp on the side of the blade jigs that he mentions. I will make the 10" template that you recommend and try this again. The other templates would be handy to have as well. Thanks again. Seems like I've been just correcting the radius as the material dictates for what seems best and I have not payed attention to the actual radii.dkellernc; since we are on the subject I was wondering at the time I read your scraper post . . . are you putting some radius on the scraper blade similar to the above blades but much less? I am assuming you are using a true scraper plane like the Stanley 112.I really like to look at my Lie-Nielsen large scraper. The two wheel adjustment etc. is so nineteenth century, but I use it so rarely that it is a foreign object in my hands. I have gotten it sharp and cutting well after much time and effort but then the blade dulls rapidly and I grab one of my other planes to take out the chatter marks left when the scraper went too dull and I did not have a clue until it was too late. I am using a straight across, no radius, blade edge because, if I remember right, that is what is called out in the instruction pamphlet.I bought it before I found out about back bevels and bevel ups. I didn't realize it was intended mostly for veneer and crumbling problems in wood like you are working. There is no way I could do a table top or large cabinet side as I have it configured. The blade is shot in about one square foot of planing on purple heart or bubinga. Perhaps these are just too hard for this plane but these are the woods in which I was getting tear out and the reason I bought the plane long ago. Of coarse the blade is too wide to go in a hand held sharpening jig.Now that I am verbalizing the problem and thinking of the cabinet scrapers that bow the blade with the thumb screw; lack of curve to my edge may be my problem.thoughts?PS: I hope I am not wearing you out with all this. I understand if you want some shop time and do not answer.Cheers !

5. 
   dkellernc | Sep 08, 2008 02:44am | #16

   Roc -  Form the standpoint of sharpening a curved blade, it is very difficult to do as you would hone a (relatively) straight across smoothing plane iron or a chisel.  That is, placing the bevel on the stone and dragging it back towards you.

   It's considerably easier to move the bevel from one end to the other with the blade held perpendicular to the stone, and angled such that the bevel contacts.  This is the way carving gouges are typically honed free-hand.

   Another thing to remember on the scrub plane blade is that only the very edge matters so long as the bevel is -reasonably- smooth.  That means that it one takes 2-3 strokes on an 8000 grit waterstone (or a fine arkansas oilstone) with the blade held about 2-3 degrees steeper than the bevel.  That will put a finely polished microbevel on the blade that's on a few thousandths wide.  Thereafter, and until you get a chip in the blade or really roll the bevel, you just strop 2-3 times to return it to sharpness.  Saves a lot of time.

   In regards to scrapers, I was indeed referring to a L-N copy of the Stanley #112.  On this tool I've simply rounded the corners with a smooth-cut file.  One important point is that if the tool chatters, it's likely that the blade angle is too steep and/or extends too far past the sole.  To really sing, this tool needs a very, very shallow set on the iron, and I find that it performs best if it's tilted back from vertical about 20 degrees (i.e., the top of the blade is farther towards the toe of the plane than the cutting edge).  One way to set the iron is to lay the tool on its sole on a very flat surface (like a piece of MDF) with the lever cap screw loose, then press down on the front tote and tighten the lever cap.  Then do a test cut.  If it's not set deep enough, you can place a thin sheet of paper under the toe and repeat the procedure.

   And - the "old school" method that works quite well is to -slightly- loosen the lever cap, and gently tap the top of the iron with a metal (preferably brass) hammer.  Sometimes this is described as "tinking" and that's an accurate way to describe the sound that procedure makes.

6. 
   roc | Sep 08, 2008 08:40am | #17

   dkellernc,Good info; sounds like I got some practicing to do ! Thanks again !

2. 
   WillGeorge | Sep 09, 2008 02:59am | #18

   I have decided.

   All my current planes seem to at least work to MY satisfaction.. I will be ordering a Veritas Medium Shoulder and a Scraping plane with optional blade. I love my hand scrapers!

6. 
   jointerman | Sep 07, 2008 09:30am | #13

   My vote is either the LN rabbet block plane, which is a block plane and rabbet plane in one! Or, the No. 4 1/2 bench plane is the classic looking plane. It's also easy to use and looks great in the shop.