Replies

1. 
   donbean46 | Dec 03, 2009 07:39am | #1

   I would love to see some pictures, it sounds like something that I would like.

    

   I'ts just one board at a time

   
   

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   Edited 12/2/2009 11:40 pm ET by donbean46

1. 
   woodhors | Dec 04, 2009 02:37am | #4

   Thanks for your interest. I took a bunch of pictures today and will post a few of them very soon. - woodhors

2. 
   joinerswork | Dec 03, 2009 05:13pm | #2

   wood,

   Your sins are not mortal ones.  Go, and sin no more:-)

   Sounds like a Victorian piece.  The biggest problem with reassembling some of these things is getting a clamp on the irregularly shaped pieces where you want the pressure to be applied. 

   Cutting softwood cauls that conform to the shape of the curved or carved rails on their in-sides and provide a flat or square surface for the clamp jaw on the out-sides, will relieve a lot of heartburn.  Strap clamps can be a help too.  You'll want to use hide glue on re-assembly of the joints, of course.

   Any good upholsterer ought to be able to re-spring the thing when you get to that point.  At some point you probably will want to saturate the bottoms and insides of the seat and back rails (where they have been peppered over the years with tacks) with hide glue, to consolidate and strengthen the wood in that region, in preparation for new tacks or staples.  Some upholsterers will want more, or less, in the way of stretcher rails, thin strips of wood, or heavy wires, placed in such a way to provide a corner to wrap the fabric around at the corners of the back or at the bottoms of the arm panels.  It depends on the design of the piece, and how the frames themselves are arranged.

   Feel free to ask any questions as they arise.

   Ray

1. 
   woodhors | Dec 04, 2009 03:04am | #5

   Thanks for your interest and comments. I will post some pictures very soon. I am sure questions will come up as I proceed so thanks for the offer of future advise. A couple of questions for now:
   1.) I live in a small town with the nearest upholsterer about 100 miles away. Could I correctly assume that any bracing could be added after the basic frame is reglued - i.e. no mortise/tenon at both ends of the brace?
   2.) As shown in the pictures, the basic joinery is double 1/2 inch dowels. Should I stick with the same size in birch or perhaps drill out to 5/8 inch and go with another species? I tend to favor the 1/2 inch since the frame is a tad shy of 1 1/2 inch thick. Thanks - woodhors

1. 
   joinerswork | Dec 04, 2009 05:08pm | #8

   Wood,

   "1.) I live in a small town with the nearest upholsterer about 100 miles away. Could I correctly assume that any bracing could be added after the basic frame is reglued - i.e. no mortise/tenon at both ends of the brace?"

   Here's where I see that bracing would help:

   a) I'd put a brace running front to back in the center of the seat rails.  The webbing that supports the springs is stretched very tightly, and exerts a lot of force on the rails.  This brace, on the order of a 2'x4', can be pocket-screwed or dowelled into the seat rails, and ought to be curved downward from each of its ends (think of a really open "U" shape).  This will keep the brace from being felt by the sitter thru the seat padding.

   Corner braces inside the seat, spanning the leg joints.  These are usually 4-6" long, triagular in shape, 1-1/2" or more in thickness.  The legs of the triangle are shaped to conform to the seat rails inside surfaces, and if carefully fitted and glued and screwed in place, add considerably to the strength of the leg to rail joints.  Sometimes the hypotenuse side of the triangle is sawn to a serpentine line to allow room for placing a spring closer to the corner of the seat.

   The joints between arm upright and seat rail, arm upright and armreat, and armrest and back upright would probably benefit from triangular glue blocks as well.  The grain of all these braces ought to run parallel to the hypotenuse of the triangle, that is, diagonally across the corner of the joint you are bracing.

   I'd add an upholstery stretcher to each arm.  This is a 1"x1" rail, about 1-1/2" above and parallel to the seat rail.  It can be doweled or (easier) pocket-screwed in place.  It is a convenience to the upholsterer; it gives him something to stretch the inside fabric of the arm against.  The seat platform is covered first, then the arm's inside is covered and pulled down onto the top of the seat and tacked (working from the outside).  This makes that seam where all your pocket change, paperclips and ballpoint pens end up.  Having the stretcher there makes it easier for the upholsterer to make a tight job.  If the center of the back is covered down to the seat, it needs a stretcher, too.  Not clear to me whether the back's upholstery ends at the back's bottom rail, or extends down to the seat.

   2.) As shown in the pictures, the basic joinery is double 1/2 inch dowels. Should I stick with the same size in birch or perhaps drill out to 5/8 inch and go with another species? I tend to favor the 1/2 inch since the frame is a tad shy of 1 1/2 inch thick.

   Stick with the 1/2" dowels.  The holes' location and angles are critical, and there's no need to ream them out and possibly get them out of kilter.  Plus, the curved ends of many of those rails are short grain, and larger holes will only weaken them further.

   Ray

1. 
   woodhors | Dec 04, 2009 09:20pm | #9

   Ray,
   Thanks for your quick and informative answer. I think that I understand just about everything you say, but here are a some comments and questions to clear up a few things:a.)I took a picture of an existing brace running front to back but it was not one that I posted. This brace curved downwards with a "drop" of about 1 inch. The brace is about 1"x1.5" and was notched at both ends to fit between the rails. The notches fit the bottom of the rails and were attached only by glue and a few small nails. I plan to mimic this but with a larger piece as you suggest and probably attached with dowels and glue.b.)In reference to corner braces you say "spanning the leg joints". I take this to mean that the right angle of the triangular brace is notched so that the brace is not attached to the leg itself. The way I picture it is that the "run out" grain of the two legs of the triangular brace are attached to the inside of the rails. If this is correct, is it worth trying to find brace material with a curved grain to minimize the run out? In this piece the front and side rails are more or less at right angles but the rear legs are attached in the middle of a gentle curve. This should make it easier to brace them and have the glue joint be more "pure" long grain.c.) No questions about upright/armrest/seat rail glue blocks.d.) Upholstery stretchers and back. I follow what you are saying. Since the rails and arms are curved the stretchers will also have to be. While fitting them might be a bit tedious and time consuming I don't see a big problem. The center back actually has a "see through" opening between the back and seat with an oval of upholstery above that. I have some major questions about the back but will wait with them until I am further along.My plan is to first reassemble the four legs and four rail pieces using 1/2 inch dowels and hot hide glue. After this I will attach the arms and fit and glue braces. Lastly, I will ask some questions and worry about the back. Somewhere along the way I will try to pick an upholsterer and have him/her make suggestions. Two more questions and I am ready to begin:1.) In the past I have only occasionally used dowels - for face frame type applications or in my house remodel. I have always used either the fluted dowels available at the local hardware store or cut my own from birch dowel stock. The strength of this piece is mostly limited by the dowels ability to resist shear. Should I use something other than birch dowels, and if so what and where do I get them?2.) On my storage rack I have some poplar, white pine, soft maple, and white oak that I could use for braces, stretchers, etc. I could of course get almost anything. I like the strength of white oak but could see that an upholsterer might hate to drive tacks into it. Any suggestions on which secondary wood to use?Again, many thanks for your input. I might have done many things the same way without it, but I feel much better and more knowledgeable about it because of the input. Sincere thanks! - woodhors

1. 
   joinerswork | Dec 04, 2009 10:52pm | #10

   wood,

   a) Ok to re-use the brace you have, or replace if you feel it is inadequate.

   b)Just use straight grained stock for the braces, no need to search for curved grain stock.

   1) birch ought to be plenty good.  The corner braces will add considerably to the strength of the joints.

   2) ash is traditionally the preferred stock for upholstery frames.  But, anything that will hold a tack (or more commonly nowadays, a staple) will be fine.  I'd avoid the white pine as being too soft and the white oak too hard (it will be more of a chore for you, to fit corner braces in white oak- but use it if you want, don't worry about the upholsterer, he'll be able to deal)  the soft maple or poplar ought to be fine.

   Have fun,

   Ray

3. 
   WillGeorge | Dec 03, 2009 11:14pm | #3

   I read your post and I have no idea what you said! Some of it maybe...

   Is it getting it back together so two lovers can sit on it again? OR is it just holding all the old pieces together?

   Why not forgot about your 'SINS" and just make it work to sin with your lover. No picture so not sure what you have there,,, If all the wood is there and the joints are bad may I suggest get some quarter sawn hickory and cut it into thin strips. BAND clamp it together and glue the strips to the inside to hold the parts together. You may have to fit some corner blocks

   I would also suggest to locate some skilled local upholstery folks and ask them what they need to fix to apply the fabric you choose. They can get all the springs and webbing necessary!

1. 
   woodhors | Dec 04, 2009 03:22am | #6

   Thanks for the comments. Hopefully the pictures I will post very soon will clear up the situation a bit. What I hope to do is bring the piece of furniture back to a condition where it adds to the coziness of the room and can seat a couple of people, lovers or not. As I think you probably have guessed, I am not hung up on the sin involved - I used the words to perhaps get a few more readers of the post. A bit out of character for me. I am usually quite analytical.
   I like the basic idea of the hickory strips but wonder about their use at the joints where the grains run perpendicular. Thanks - woodhors

1. 
   woodhors | Dec 04, 2009 03:49am | #7

   Here are some pictures I took today. Hopefully they will show that the basic construction is quite simple - double dowels connecting frame members to the legs. To "assemble" it for the pictures I just inserted loose dowels a little bit into the holes. The right side is of course symetrical to the left, I just didn't put it together. The center of the back is in the worst shape of the entire piece so it is just resting on the base (in one picture). It was also originally attached with two dowels. I welcome any comments.

   
2. 
   WillGeorge | Dec 05, 2009 07:01pm | #11

   I am usually quite analytical..

   So am also so I was thinking of curved joints to hold together? Not sure now! Common joints can be worked out with glued on strips of wood, plane of some type. and whatever...

   I was thinking of Hickory strips to close and hold the pieces together unseen at the back of the origional.

1. 
   Shoemaker1 | Dec 05, 2009 10:52pm | #12

   Gee you sound like me somedays/years.While demolishing an old house about a month ago, in the ugly basement was an old chair. It got throw out of the hole. Once I got to look at it it has hand carved arms, front rail broken and nailed back inplace the dowels are intact. upholstry is shot. Others on the crew were looking at, it as salvage was OK. well I let it sit for most of the day then threw it in the back of the truck.When I got it home I started looking more at it and I can't find any info on it it is pretty funcky chair. Now I will have to go take a pic and start disaassembly. Its pretty loose.Can you tell me about releasing hide glue joints, water heat and vinegar. Before I sin also.I can do basic upholestry but in a pinch my neighbor is a pro.

1. 
   woodhors | Dec 06, 2009 02:54am | #13

   Hi Shoe - I am sure that there are many on the forum with much more hide glue experience than me, but I don't think the following is far off base - perhaps just missing a few good tips:Hide glue dissolves in water and melts at something less than 140 degrees F. (the thermostat control on a glue pot keeps it at about 140 F). So, to loosen up a hide glue joint you need to get it warm and wet. Sometimes hot water will work by itself but heat applied first with a heating pad or hair drier has worked best for me. I have wrapped the joint with a heating pad, "insulated it" with a towel and waited until the wood was quite warm. Inject hot water with a syringe or however you can get it into the joint. Twisting and rocking by hand hopefully begins to loosen the joint but you will probably have to repeat the process a number of times. A bit of vinegar added to the water seems to make the glue a bit more like water and less like honey, but it is the heat and water that does the job. Hopefully an expert will chime in with some good tips. All I can say is this has worked for me. Good luck. Let me know if I can help. - Woodhors