Winemane ,
In building face frames for cabinets pocket screws imo are a very efficient method to use , but in real furniture there is no place for pocket screws or nails , again imo .
dusty
Discussion Forum
Get It All!
UNLIMITED Membership is like taking a master class in woodworking for less than $10 a month.
Start Your Free TrialCategories
Discussion Forum
Digital Plans Library
Member exclusive! – Plans for everyone – from beginners to experts – right at your fingertips.
Highlights
-
Shape Your Skills
when you sign up for our emails
This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply. -
Shop Talk Live Podcast -
Our favorite articles and videos -
E-Learning Courses from Fine Woodworking
-
-
Replies
Dear Whineman
Surely if the CNC hobbiest is happy and can afford it, whats the problem? The pocket screw guy can look down with distain on the lack of craftsmanship on the CNC and the rusty ,bent nail carpenter down on him .Thereby elevating the rest of us to new and precious heights. My friend there is room for all .The most important thing is "are you satisfied with yourself and your hobby "
What do you think of
bisquits?
dowels?
nails? drawn and cut?
screws? plugged?
I personally think pocket screws are ugly and seem to cheapen a work somehow. But I don't have the same disdain for any of the other joinery methods I listed above (except maybe bisquits a little). I'm not sure why. I can't quite but my finger on a rational distinction beyond taste.
Are bisquits French fasteners? I like drywall screws and large nail guns to secure one piece to another. Hello!!!! Get modern.
Whinemane I think the answer is obvious ban the sale and use of pocket screws! Make it a crime punisable by 3-5 in the Pen! Seriously, if you don't like them don't use them! I don't own the jig, but if I were making cabinets, I could see where it would be a great tool.
If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it.
And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
bones and All ,
The guy in the cell next to me asked , what are you in for ?
" Pocket Screwing "
dusty , never been incarcerated for pocket screwing , yet
My opinion? Pocket screws, like pretty much anything, have their place and are fine if used in that place. Kitchen cab face frames are, IMHO, a fine application for pocket screws. You don't really need the strength of a M&T joint for these, and they ain't exactly heirloom furniture. (I forget the exact figure, but I read somewhere that the average kitchen cabs get replaced something like every 10 years, or less.) In most cases, there's just no reason not to use 'em for this application. Sure, M&T are traditional, and stonger, and, if you feel the need to examine the inside of the back of a face frame, might even look better. But do you need 'em? Do they make the cab "better"? I don't think so.
It would be great if we could all drive a Rolls Royce all the time, since they are way better'n Chevrolets. Hey, I might even enjoy that once in a while to take My Lovely Assistant out on the town! But for day-to-day stuff, even if I could drive the Rolls, I'll drive my pickup, thank-you, since it fits my purpose better 99% of the time.
Personally, I hate the attitude that everything always has to be the absolute "best" when, in most cases, "good enough" works better, cheaper, faster. (My pet peeve is posts asking "what's the BEST duct tape?. "what's the BEST sandpaper", "what's the BEST screwdriver". Man, get a grip!)
YMMV. ;-)
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
You open a can of worms. Then someone (jako17) suggests you taste one of them and you get all huffy. Sheesh....
You wrote that pocket screws don't belong in custom fine furniture. Well, I beg to differ. I make very contemporary, very high end furniture.... stuff that I charge $10K+ for. I use pocket screws, bolts, nails, dovetails, m&t joints, glue....... anything and everything. It's how, not what, one uses that matters.
If you don't like nor choose to use pocket screws, fine. But don't expect to disparage their use and not get called on it.
I hate...hand held power tools. Norm makes me sick.
Wait a minute, I hate...electricity. Roy Underhill had it right all along.
Hold it! I hate...steel. We should all use bronze and flint.
Just one second. I hate...
Love it.
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
Your calling what Jako said being belittled and put down? Wow! You should come to work with me sometime. I talk to my friends way worse than that. People that piss me off really get lit up.
Were you just bored and spoiling for an argument today? You've been a member of this forum long enough to know that you can't title a post "I hate (whatever)", and expect everyone here to say "yay for Winemane!". No one in this thread has belittled anyone yet. You seem the most antagonistic so far from where I sit.
Rob
"I guess I stepped on some toes with this post.
Sorry"
Naw, man don't apologize, just have some fun! Tell us we're nuts! You want to get people riled, it keeps it interesting! Start a thread about how Norm is cool, and boy you will get people going!
If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it.
And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
I was a little hesitant to post in this discussion...
I own Kreg's K3 system - their top of the line unit. I use it all the time when I want to do something quick. Many of my jigs and shop cabinets are built with pocket screws. I also occasionally use them in furniture - they've bailed me out of a few situations.
By no means are pocket screws or CNCs traditional, but they do work. We could have the same discussion with hand tools versus power tools.
Chris @ flairwoodworks
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Are you winemane or Whinemane? They have their place. Surely they are not the beginning of slippery slope to the end of the woodworking world. So I suspect that you cut your mortise and tenons with hammer & chisel, shape with a rasp, sand with homemade sandpaper, and have thrown out all of your power tools.
I use pocket screws for cabinet assembly all the time (all day, today, as a matter of fact.) They are great for attaching face frames to plywood carcasses, and the pocketholes can be placed in faces of the cabinet that are hidden.
I never use pocket screws when building furniture.
Like anything else, there's a time and place for anything, and then there's a wrong place, as well.
Jeff
Hi Jeff,
Pocket screws have been used for a long time in traditional furniture building, to attach tops on tables and chests of drawers. When I use this technique, I generally do not use a Kreg jig, but a drill, then a mallet and large gouge.
I agree that there is a time and place for everything. Not much new under the sun, either.
Ray
Ray
Yes, indeed. I used to attach tabletops with the same method. I used a drill press, though, on the apron. Then, I'd elongate the holes with a hand drill. Now, I prefer to use figure 8's to attach table tops.
I do use a kreg jig now, as it is faster for me. I've got the whole contraption jigged on a piece of plywood. I clamp it on the bench, and can work much faster that way.
I don't know if there is a single thing we do now that is much different than the days of old. Maybe we have better adhesives and hardware (maybe??), but it's all the same. Just a new fangled way of doing it.
I did not benefit from having any of this stuff taught to me, as I never apprenticed in a shop. I've been figuring it out as I go for over 20 years now.
Jeff
Winemane,
I think that not everyone read your initial post carefully or missed something that you said. I also think that the use of PS's is justified too. As Ray pointed out they have been in use for a very long time.
Aside from your feelings about their use in Shaker Furniture, which I think was the emphasis of your post, do you have any other problems with their employment?
Notice that I left that question open ended, not excluding furniture.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
By mid-summer, I expect to begin functional testing of my time machine.
I've just decided that one of my first trips will be to the beginning of the bronze age where I'll look for the earliest woodworkers to use bronze cutting tools - and listen in on their debates with those who insist that only sharpened flint is appropriate for true woodworking. Then, I'll skip forward to when iron replaced bronze; steel replaced iron, etc, and listen some more.
On a later trip, I'm going to find the first woodworkers who embrace using water wheels or windmills to power their work instead of relying on the more traditional muscle power. Ah yes,................more argument. - lol
I'm expecing that the early 20th century will be a gold mine as I observe the invention and implementation of electric motors....................and more debate.
If I survive, I'll report back. Stay tuned. - lol
"I wasn’t expecting to get the responses that I got..."
Out of curiosity, what were you expecting? The responses that you got were precisely what I would have expected.
-Steve
Steve,
What I read from Winemanes OP was that he didn't like PS's used on Shaker Furniture i.e., how they were employed on a stool. Not a blanket condemnation of pocket screws in general, as the title may imply.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Winemane
I don't use pocket screws on anything. I too don't care for them much either. I don't have a problem with anyone else using them. I'm sure there's alot of good uses for them. I'm just a bit of a traditionalist I guess.
I've used 3" screws (not pocket screws) on faceframes before, and found they can shift under force. I don't know how pocket screws can work better than two 3" sheetrock screws. But maybe they can.
GRW
Did you know you can buy 5000 of them and put them in a burlap bag and use them for a anchor? Boat stays steady and fast.
Well you can nail or screw a butt joint, or the wood can be cut in a way that the pieces will interlock in some fashion and be held together with glue and maybe a wooden peg or two.
I think I'll stick to the latter method.
Edited 2/7/2008 7:02 am ET by BossCrunk
I looked and the shaker stepstool I found on the PW site is held together with dovetails. PW does have a feature called "I can do that" for rank beginners; maybe you found something from that.
Authentic Shaker furniture used whatever joinery seemed appropriate, including nails. But they were used in ways that did not compromise the structure of the furniture, for instance in shiplap backs. Pocket screws holding on tabletops may predate the Shakers.
I would speculate that had Kreg jigs been around, Shakers might well have used them. But not for all their joinery, just where it might be appropriate. I don't think many disagree with that use, but opinions vary significantly as to where it is appropriate.
But please don't think of the response you got here as an attack. You expressed an opinion, and people responded, some agreeing and some not. The most vigorous responded to your title. This is a discussion. Attacks happen, and are a lot uglier.
The step stool that the Wine Guy is referring to is indeed from an "I Can Do That" article (November 2007). The funny thing is that the pocket screws were used on an edge-to-edge joint, where they're basically superfluous. I think the only reason that they're there is to act as clamps during glue-up, or maybe to account for less-than-perfect joint preparation.
-Steve
It's more a matter of the proper application for what method you want to use. A cabinet face fram probably won't be subjected a lot of racking force so a mechanical fastener like a pocket screw will work fine. But if you move to something like a chair that takes a lot abuse you had better stick to traditional joinery simply because a screw will work itself loose over time. another way of looking at it would be to put the effort into what a customer is going to see. Most clients wouldn't be able to tell from outward appearances whether a face frame is tenoned or pocket srewed but they would readily notice the joinery on your drawers and the amount of detail put into a rail and style door.
Eh, I'll use pocket screws when the situation calls for it. For a face frame on a piece of functional cabinetry, heck yeah. No problem with that.Now, if I'm building something heirloom, I'll break into M&T, Dovetails, you know, the traditional joints to showcase my skill.They have a place for me...Tom Iovino
Tom's Workbench
http://tomsworkbench.com
I think you hit it on the head Tom.
In cabinet making, there is a place for for pocket screws. Why... because they absolutely get the job done and they can't be seen. If they did not make a very strong joint or if they could be seen we would not use them.
I think the most common face frame assembly technique, before pocket screws, was to dowel them. I'm sure that when dowels began to replace M&T face frame construction it was because the doweling jigs that came out (modern technology) made it faster and easier to make the joint - and it was very strong joint that could not be seen.
If you think about it, why do we use dovetails on drawers in cabinets? They are no longer functionally needed if we're using today's drawer glide hardware? With today's adhesives, we could use a but joint and some brads. We could pocket screw the drawer components (I do both of these with shop and utility drawers.) Yet I wouldn't think of not using dovetails on a kitchen cabinet or desk drawer with mechanical guides. Why... because they show.
As for continuing to M&T face frames, even on heirlooms, I would ask everyone to think long and hard about this. Think of it... the year is 5075 and some multi-degreed, 6-book archeologist is doing a dig and finds your M&T face frame. "Eureka!" he exclaims, "what we have here, ladies and gentlemen of the press is clearly a pre-Kregian cabinet assembly." Immediately Nova and Natl Geo start fighting for the rights to create a special on the find. Then... a month later, on the same dig, they find an Accuride, undermount, self-soft-closing drawer glide! Theories start being formed about missing links and alien intervention to early 21st century cabinet making.
All this because one of us bozos thought it would be cool to use the M&T joint on a face frame! Stay with pocket screws boys and girls. The future of mankind depends on it!
Frank
Wow, hey now! I knew I'd be more valuable to society dead! :DTom Iovino
Tom's Workbench
http://tomsworkbench.com
Frank,
Ya mean I can't use dowels no more!?
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Ya mean I can't use dowels no more!?
Bob, get hold of your senses man! You will screw up future historians for centuries through the careless use of dowels in a post-Kregian world!
Frank
Frank,
I apologize. I missed the inference - Kregian.......
OK, I'll stick to finish nails. Does that mean no glue too?
:-)
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Well put, Frank. Maybe the alien intervention came in the form of the Domino.
Paul
Surely we are forgeting that the object of wood working as a hobby is to give pleasure to the participant.If he/she is happy with the result however crude by our standards as observers so be it .Magazines including FWW (more and more )are becoming beginner orientated to capture that market share.By showing such plans they give the beginer a simple, gratifying experience to accomplish.Shaker furniture no matter how perfect the reproduction is still reproduction as the Shakers are just about extinct as a sect(I believe)So when something as obviously a high school shop class project standard is produced it presents no threat to either genuine Shaker pieces or reprductions .Even if offered for sale (heaven forbid), the kind of buyer who purchases the pocket hole stool is not going to spend the kind of money required for antique or repro Shaker goods.This thread has been a great way for me to pass the worst bout of flu ever when sawdust is impossible to face so it did have a purpose.THANKS Winemane <G>
Wine,
One should never put screws in ones pocket. They'll prick ya every time.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
They also tear up your pockets. Next thing you know, you'll have screws falling out your pants legs!Tom Iovino
Tom's Workbench
http://tomsworkbench.com
Re"I hate pocket screws".
Me too!
I can remember going into a furniture store with my parents when I was a kid and the furniture salesman telling my parents about the great construction of the furniture he carried, mortise & tennon, dovetails, daddo construction, solid wood. Those were the old days, now adays most young buyers do not care what the constructions is as long as it meets their needs, this includes my own kids, I don't think pocket screw construction would even be noticed by them. Most furniture salesmen today don't even know how the stuff is manufactured nor do they care. Just a thought. I fine most of my young clients are clueless about construction and again they really don't care as they don't plan to keep it for ever and pass it down from one generation to another. They often bring me pictures of knock down furniture and want me to make it like that but a little longer, higher or smaller. So you know what they are looking at.
Winemane,
You just don't get it do ya!? It's a ploy man, it's a ploy.
We wouldn't want everything to last now would we? That would be anti-capitalistic what with the throw away mentallity of today. Screw quality (no pun intended) cause they'll never have to replace it! Can't have that laddy.
Fill up them landfills with all the junk, create more jobs, spend more money. Don't you understand? See the cycle? For gawds sake DON'T RECYCLE, just throw it away. Stop blasphemin with that heirloom stuff!
That Frank dude is just trying to fuel the fire, don't pay no tention to im.
:-)
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 2/15/2008 9:35 am ET by KiddervilleAcres
Wineman,
Even a pocket screwball like me's gotta have a little fun sometimes.
But the times they are a changing. A long as some of us hold on to the traditional ways, and others of us challenge with innovative new ways - and as long as there is a healthy tug of war going on - the change will likely be carefully measured and considered and be for the better in the long run.
Slow and steady.
Frank
Too bad for you. I use them all the time for face frames and constructing plywood cabinets. I wouldn't use them in some projects, but a blanket "I hate them" is pretty darn stupid. Be sure to turn in all your tools and go back to a stone adze, if you are so dead set against new technologies.
How can you possibly advocate using an adze? A proper joint requires careful selection of wood and vines plus traditional lashing. Your use of the new fangled adze just bastardizes traditional joinery and can in no way be considered Fine Woodwork.
I am shocked...shocked I tell you, that a craftsman of your caliber would resort to such a shortcut.
Ya would pocket screw a Queen Ann face frame would ya?
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Maybe - if the holes were hidden. But I don't have customers asking for QA work, just contemporary kitchens and wall units. I could build them with M/T joints if I wanted to slow everything down and lower profits. I'll just explain to my next customer why a joint they never see on their trash compactor cabinet needs to be an authentic mortise & tenon that is truly "fine" woodworking. I'm sure they'll cough up the extra bucks to be "pure."Recommending the use of "Hide Signatures" option under "My Preferences" since 2005
So what is so wrong with Norm? He earns a living thru woodworking. He does it the way he wants to. He is as ugly as I am and can get his mug on television a couple times a week. He must be doing something right.
I am with you and admire the guy. Sometimes I think its a major case of sour grapes. I still think that if you are going to paint something, a cheaper wood would do as well. Cheers,Peter
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
Edited 2/17/2008 9:53 am by PeterDurand
AB ,
Just a small clarification , I respect Norm for what he does and his promotion of woodworking at the DIY level but,,,,,,, Norm does not make his living from profits received as a result of his wood working the way many of us do .My guess is he has no income from selling his work .
No , he makes his living from his television appearances and contracts , imho there is a major difference . I doubt if Norm would have a clue on how to even bid a real job in the real world . Lets face it the shows advisors and writers tell Norm what he needs to do next .
dusty
'I doubt if Norm would have a clue on how to even bid a real job in the real world .'Oh my. Feeling a bit defensive are we? He used to be a successful contractor, both in period renovations and new construction.
Better life through Zoodles and poutine...
Hi Peter ,
Just calling a spade a spade , you are welcome to interpret to your liking .
When was Norm actually last licensed and involved and bidding as a GC ?
He has been on TV and such for what seems like many years .
regards dusty
Hey man, just pulllin your leg. My customer (wife) could care less how I put anything together if the trugth were to be known. I on the other hand would prefer a more elaborate approach, mainly cause I get the enjoyment and satisfaction from doing it. I guess that might be one difference between having to make pieces for a living and doing it for your own edification.
To me it's the challenge more than anything else.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Pocket screws - "new" technology? You're kidding, right?
Boss, I'm late to this thread, but......... a few years ago my mother gave me a small three drawer chest that she had received from her parents, who, in turn, had received from their parents. Easily 100+ years old. It's nothing special, but well constructed and a decent finish. So you can imagine the 'shock' when examining the piece I flipped it over and found the top was attached with (horrors) pocket screws!!! Oh! The humanity! I wept for days. 8^) Oh well. I guess I'll hang on to the hunk o junk a few more years. Though I can't imagine it lasting much longer!
Best,ONWARD! THROUGH THE FOG.
Chuck
Winemane,
That's why I make as much as I can myself. You know... If you want it done right...
Chris @ flairwoodworks
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
Winemane - thanks for expressing your opinion and I agree to a point. I have learned everything has its place in this hobby I think. I also believe there is a whole generation that doesn't know or doesn't care to learn how to hand cut dovetails or mortise and tenons. The difference for me is if I was making a living at this, I would look for every efficiency improvement I could find or afford. I have used pocket screws instead of dowels in the parts where the can't be seen and find it a great way to join a couple of boards. I sold my biscuit joiner. and I know how to hand cut other joints, I think it is a matter of what you enjoy doing. Take Care
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled