Went out to the shop this morning intending to complete the joinery on a miter saw station I’m building. I thought “Before I set up the dado blade let me check the miter slot for parallel It’s been a while”. It’s out by a 1/16! WTF did that happen. Grab the socket and a dead blow to tap it back and I don’t have enough adjustment in the trunnion. I spent the whole day mucking with that thing. Had it completely disassembled twice. Now it’s parallel at 90 but out of parallel at 45! I have to shim the front trunnion down. I have to disassemble it again to get at it. GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR. Table saw 1. John 0. Anyone want to buy a
general contractor saw?
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Replies
Buy yourself a General 350. We horse lumber through ours day in day out and they havn't needed adjustment in years. That goes for all three of them!! Two of them are 20+ years old
The joys of using a contractor saw. I sincerely hope that whoever said the contractor design is on its way out is right!!! I suffered a similar situation with my old Jet saw, but it was because that arrangement of bars connecting the trunnions had gotten out of whack, no longer formed a rectangle, but some other geometric arrangement. No way I could figure it out, ended up toting it 50 miles away to an equipment tech guy at one of the mills, he set it right, locked it down, but I still don't use it to rip at 45° -- no way, no how.
I'm going to prop the top up sawhorses so I have the access to the guts and the table top. Shim and test with the dial indicator until 45 and 90 are parallel. If not I'm ordering a cabinet saw and keeping this as a dedicated crosscut saw if it will fit in the next shop. I just wish I were building something and not setting up machinery.
Pirsig's book "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance", as well as being a philosophical musing that may or may not appeal to you, also describes one of the most effective approaches to troubleshooting machinery I've seen, tailor-made for a situation like this. It mostly involves sitting and looking and analyzing.
Assembling Chinese bicycle requires great patience!
I remember the quote as "assembly of Japanese bicycle requires great peace of mind."
could be wrong: It's been 33 years since I read it, but that one kinda stuck with me.
[Avoid schadenfreude]
Could be it's been awhile for me too.I guess the important point is we still remember it.
I've read that book and I did a whole lot of staring, sitting and disassembly so I could analyze yesterday. I kept looking on the bright side that I'll have a well tuned saw when I'm done or I'll only be able to make cuts at 90 until I can save up for a powermatic or a saw stop. Is It comon for auto part stores to sell shim stock?
One of my favorite books. I love that book.
JamieDid you buy a saw yet? Just curious... Tom"Notice that at no time do my fingers leave my hand"
Nope, not yet. Time is running out on that Steel City sale, and I don't think I can pull that one off in the next few days. Will give Sumner WW a call and find out what they have on the floor, when the new hybrid's coming out, and get over there before I buy, methinks.
The 50" titantium model that's on sale is to die for, but I seriously doubt I could manage it in the limited space I have. Sad, sad.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Do you know when the SawStop contractor's saw will be released? Or are you wanting a cabinet/hybrid? Tom"Notice that at no time do my fingers leave my hand"
I really don't know about the SawStop contractor saw release date. Whenever I've heard an approximate date, it's been changed. I've decided I will not have another contractor saw, safety feature or no. Looking primarily at the Steel City cabinet saws, 3HP, and waiting to see if their new hybrid, which has a riving knife, debuts in February. This is the one with the granite top, but I would opt for the cast iron option.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Hi Forestgirl,
The Saw Stop contractor's saw will almost certainly be a hybrid type saw, just a lighter version of their cabinet saw. Given the mechanics of the brake mechanism, it is very unlikely that the motor will be hung off the back of the machine, or that the arbor and trunnion assembly would be anything like a traditional contractor's saw.
John White
Thank you for that info, John. It would really behoove them to put the design info on their web site. All the talk on the forums that I've read is about "Why a contractor saw" and I'm sure I'm not the only person who's written the SS off the list because of that.
I will call them or write and ask some questions. Still holding to the above-table adjustment requirement (45 and 90 stops). Thanks for giving me some hope!forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I'm also curious about why they are putting so much effort into a contractor's saw.
Carpenters are now using the portable saws from Bosch, Ridgid, and the like, and woodworkers have finally figured out that contractor's saws are more trouble than they're worth for shop work. Now that the hybrid saws are available, the contractors saw is finally going to get a long overdue retirement, not the best time to introducing a new contractor's saw, even if mechanically it doesn't have the flaws of the old style contractor's saw.
I think I'll give them a call and ask what they have in mind.
John
Well. I got it all back together last night and it's still wonky. Closer, but still not where I want it. I Shimmed the front trunnion down an 1/8 of an inch and I think It could go more! I did manage to make some sawdust today so that made me happy.I'm savin up for a sawstop 5hp! Now I better start making some money at this hobby to justify that kind of money for a saw.
JC, is there any chance the carriage underneath has gotten out of square? Really sounds like there might be a different problem than the one you're chasin.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Forestgirl,That is entirely possible. Before I started this I could get it parallel at 90 but when it was tilted to 45 back of the blade dropped .140!. I had the whole top off and suspended so I could shim and check for parallel. I had it nailed until I put it all back together and hung the motor on. Now it's only out by .009. Much closer but I want it dead on. It could be out of square. Is that what happened to yours? I have some pictures posted at Lumberjocks.http://lumberjocks.com/jocks/Jcpilot/blog
Hi, John. Lumberjocks, eh? ;-) OK, yes, that's what happened to my saw, I suspect when it was loaded into my van (used saw from a frame shop) the guys dropped it. From what I hear, that's one kind of activity that can force the rectangle formed by the trunnions and those tie bars between them, getting the bars out of parallel or plane or something.
Another thing that can do it is cranking the saw to 45° without removing an outfeed table that blocks the travel of the motor. Motor runs into table, table does not give, trunnion assembly does.
The symptoms of this kind of saw "illness" are like exaggerated Contractor Saw Syndrome -- that deviance that is a direct result of the motor hanging off the back of the saw, the forces of which make the blade go slightly out of alignment when tilted to 45°. The question about your saw, IMHO, is whether you're truly dealing with simple CSS, or is most of the problem due to Jammed Carriage Syndrome (JCS). Intuition (you know us women) tells me that with as much it's out, and the amount of shimming you've already done, there's a good chance it's the latter.
How to fix it, if that's the case? Hmmmmm, there's an article on the web somewhere, Ahhhhh, here it is. Steps 4, 5 and 6 address diagnosing JCS and correcting it.
That article wasn't in my library at the time my saw was suffering from JCS, I ended up toting it off to a machinery repair guy, who charged me $60 to fix it. That was the bad news. The good news was, he had an extra set of cast iron wings that fit my saw, which he sold me for $30!! The whole thing turned out to be well worth it.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Forestgirl,Thank you for posting the file on the bar alignment. That was the problem. It was way out and I know why. My bench is backed up to the table saw as an outfeed and I tilted the blade over and the motor hit the bench and racked the assembly. So I removed the shims, leveled the tubes and adjusted the blade to miter slot parallelism at 90. When I tilted the blade to 45 with the motor off both the tubes and miter slot stayed close to parallel. Doing the same test with the motor on was a different story. The weight of the motor at 45 racked the tubes out of parallel. It's nice to understand what's going on but frustrating that I can't depend on some accuracy. I'm starting a table saw fund and look forward to getting a cabinet saw. Thanks again for help.John
John, so glad you were able to pinpoint the problem! Yep, a cabinet saw (or a good hybrid) will relieve many frustrations.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Get a Powermatic and quit suffering.
Jcpilot
I had similar experiance with my Delta contractor saw.. I swear that thing was perfect when I turned it off at night but by morning it had moved so far out of square you'd swear it had been attacked by a semi on the freeway! So I'd spend the day getting it back square only to have the thing move around overnight again!
In the end I gave it away. That's right, gave it away! I tried to sell it and everybody who checked it out turned it down..
I replaced it with Grizzly table saw (12 inch) and have been tickled ever since.. I put away all my machinests tools because it hasn't changed siince I got it.. it came out of the crate square and remains square now 4 years later..
Dude, I feel for you. While I did not have a contractors saw, I had a shop smith. It was a constant battle to keep things right because you moved the table instead of the blade. I was always making test cuts to make sure it was just right prior to putting the real stuff through. Don't get me wrong, it did the job, but what a pain. I purchased the Grizzly 1023 cabinet saw, and never looked back. At first I would check it regularly out of habbit, but I have not had to adjust it since I moved a few years back, and that adjustment was the table to reattach the rail bars. Good luck.
If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it.
And if it stops moving, subsidize it.
I hate my Jet contractor saw too. Really not the saw. It has served me well for 5 yrs. but it has always been a hassle. Mostly the s... fence on mine. They don't call it a contractor saw for nothing.
I am getting REAL close to pulling the trigger on the sawstop. Business has been good and there is no price one can put on one's fingers. And I love everything about the saw; I love woodworking but am not prepared to sacrifice a finger. REAL close.
PMM
Go ahead and pull the trigger. YOU"LL NEVER REGRET IT!
Dick Dare, proud owner of a SawStop
Pull the trigger before you lose your finger...and then you won't be able to pull the trigger.Mine is on order and should be here this weekend.
Dear John,
Although I am a Powermatic user, I also have a friends Delta Unisaw in my shop that he is looking to sell. If you are in CT and interested, let me know.
Best,
John
John,Thanks for the offer but I'm in Indiana. Anyway, I couldn't afford it at the moment. I'll just save my pennies until I can afford the last saw I'll have to buy.John
I’m sorry to hear you’re having trouble with your General saw. I switched from a very cheap generic contractors saw to a General cabinet saw (primarily because of the cost of the General, delivered to my garage for less than $1000) and I’ve been pleased. I felt like I switched from a noisy vibrating bi-plane to a sleek whisper jet. It took some experimenting to get the fence set properly to keep it from burning my wood, but it works great. - And I promise I’m not one of those people that recommends something just because I bought it. If I end up with a lemon I’ll tell everybody about it.
Here's your fuel efficient whisper, er, prop. It's a Piaggio P180.
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What is the model # of the saw?
Josh
General International left tilting contractor saw. The one FWW magazine recommended a while back.
JC, I have a Delta RT-31 for sale, has had super light use. Check the classifieds.
I am so happy that I dumped my contractors saw last year. Not only was I having the problems you seem to be having, the fence was terrible. It took at least five minutes to set up every cut and even with that getting it within a 1/16" of the correct cut line was purely by accident. Yep, it was that bad.
Now, I'm elated with my SawStop and Incra fence. Wow, what a difference!
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