but your stuff is better, it lasts much longer. I can’t afford what you charge. Can you match the price that they charge for what you make?
In a word,— no. I didn’t put it so bluntly.
Discuss, ha, ha. Slainte, RJ.
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Replies
My stock answer when people try to "negotiate" with me is to ask them how many they would like to purchase in order to get the quantity discount. Golly, i love the looks on their faces...
Or you could do what I like to do when my manager asks me to recalculate an estimated schedule. If I don't find some obvious mistake that made the original schedule longer than it should be, I come back with a schedule that's 10% longer than the original.
Now if he comes and asks me what features we can cut to make the schedule, I'm happy to work with him.
In sales, when you get the objection, they are usually ready to sign the deal...all they are looking for is a tiny bit more value to justify the decision they have already made....
Sgian--
Tell them you are an Artist and refer them to the world's longest thread, right at this very site. Make them read the entire thread before you will let them go. Before they get halfway through they will promise to pay whatever you say if you will only release them from the torture.
Edited 10/4/2002 12:52:28 PM ET by Donald C. Brown
Thank you Don, I needed a good laugh this morning.
Jeff in so cal
Slainte
Here in Atlanta there is a cheap furniture store. The owner is Wolfman. He has a heavy beard. His daughter is Donna. They have two stores and have been around for many years. They advertise constantly on the non-national TV stations.
I suggested to a freind that builds as you do for a living, to reply that "you want custom, hand-crafted, one of a kind furniture at Wolfman and Donna prices. You can get a whole bedroom suite for $300 !! Here's their phone number."
I will e-mail the phone # if you want to refer them to the Wolfman. Donna will aprecitate it too. BTW, he and Donna don't deliver to Houston. Ha..ha Good luck and keep a sense of humor.
sarge..jt
I said something diplomatically along the lines of, "And people nearest the fire in hell would maybe like a glass of iced water now and again." I got the job anyway, and the relationship with this client is ongoing, so he just sort of laughed-- he was fishing as usual. Without items of the type I make for him, he wouldn't be in business-- kind of like a taxi driver without a taxi-- it's not reception area flim-flam or anything. It ain't pretty stuff, and it gets abused and busted up, and it has to be fixed from time to time. I made all the jigs, patterns, etc., so I'm sort of prime supplier of the item, if you get my drift.
Still, it's a common enough variation of that type of response when dropping a price on a client, or potential client, and I know I'm not cheap-- don't even try to be. I just wondered how other people handle it. After all, as I've said elsewhere in this forum, we can all sit on tea chests. Who needs dining chairs at $2,000- $3,000 a pop? Slainte.Website
Sgian:
I bet if you were to visit some of the showrooms in the design centers like the Merchandise Mart, $2000 - $3000 dining room chairs would be the rule rather than the exception.
The primary difference is that those showrooms are clean, the staff are attractive and nicely scented, and there are a zillion other items they can dream about buying in their striving to become king/queen of the mountain (of stuff). You on the other hand talk funny, are probably thinking about when you will get your next pint of bitter and have likely had parts of your face re-arranged from rugby competion. I will make no inference about the cleanliness of your shop or how you smell!
Stanley-
I will make no inference about the cleanliness of your shop or how you smell!
You may be unwilling to make an inference, but may the rest of us give it a try?
As far as I am concerned, Sgian is fair game for anyone willing to poke a wee bit of fun at him.
That he might smell could be related to the combined heat and humidity in Houston. Muggy, muggy!
Sgian! How 'bout big ugly warts, torn ears, excessive flatulance, etc.?
But seriously, the cost of some manufactured items in the showrooms of the design centers can be higher priced than craftspersons' work.
Where I'm from, Stanley, mutual insults are constantly hurled between close friends, so it's all like water off a ducks back to me, ha, ha.
It's true. I've been into Roche Bobois(sp?) here in Houston. It's heavy on very expensive trendy veneered chip (particle) board poorly assembled. The Design Center here in town has many furniture outlets that sells only to the design trade-- private clients aren't welcome. A lot of overpriced tat can be found there too, as well as good stuff. But that's life in general. Slainte. Website
Since we are talking faces here lets put faces with the names. I am enjoying the thread very much thank you . http://bartswoodshop.freeservers.com/images/me.jpg
Bart:
Buried within the fine print of this website's rules and protocols are two important notices -- the first is that no one should ever actually tell me that I am right on an issue ('cus it goes to my head and I supposedly might become more arrogant than I seemingly appear to be); and the other is that I am to remain faceless (which I have been trying to due for years and years by covering as much of it as possible with hair).
Since we are talking faces here lets put faces with the names.
I have seen that face in the post office, or was it the side of a milk carton. LOL Is that your shop you are at? I would love to see the rest of it.
YOU don't even want to see my face. I am so ugly I scare the orange color out of a pumpkin. I can't sneak up on a glass of water, I can't even get the galss to stand still long emough to get hold of it.
quality might be like pornography. While i cant describe it, i sure know it when i see it.
Ha, ha, Stanley. I'm extremely handsome. The nose going in three directions is a fine feature, along with the missing teeth-- worn, lived in. I don't talk "funny" at all. It's all those darned Yanks that talk funny. You mentioned something very interesting there-- you've just reminded me that it's time to go off to the fridge for a cold one! Slainte, RJ.
Website
Edited 10/4/2002 9:54:23 PM ET by Sgian Dubh
Sgian;
Buying quality is like buying oats;
Some people prefer to buy them direct from the farmer's field. Others are content to buy them after the horse has used them.
Side bar question - You always sign your posts "Slainte". I have a mouse pad sent to me by some dear friends in Gateshead which is of a malt whiskey theme. There are pictures of a still roof with the caption "pagoda", a piture of a wash still with the caption "was still" (what else), and others. There's also a picture of a Scottish Tam (I believe that's the name of a beret-like head piece) with the caption "Slainte".
What, pray tell, is the connection?
And yes, I prefer the Islay malts.
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
Dennis, Slainte is short for slainte bheatha. It's a greeting, or a thanks, or a cheers, short for 'good life.' Try typing that phrase into a search engine. Try also typing my handle into a search engine too, just for fun. Slainte.Website
Thanks for the explain, Sgian.
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
ha ha,
Things that go bump in the night. I'm married to a proud highlander - I had no idea you were talking about a skean dhu.
Cheers,
eddie
Sgian Dubh,
Took your advice and looked your handle up. This would be the same piece of attire that got the kid here in Michigan expelled from school and graduation for wearing to his high scool prom.
From what I read, how do you know you ae spelling your name correctly? Wouldn't want to confuse you with Skeen Dubh, Sgian Duh or Sgian Dub. haha My grandfather was Scottish. A country where the accent makes phonetic spelling meaningless! Actually, when he would get together years ago with his relatives and friends, while they were still all alive, it would have been hard to convince anyone they were speaking English!
Don
Don, You're right. There are different spellings. Even in modern English though, I spell realise, colour, favour, cheque and tyre as I do, and these spellings are as correct as realize, color, favor, check, and tire. It's somehow 'unnatural' for me to use the spellings in the latter examples, so I don't. Helped out my stepson once with an English paper for his school work. It came back with a lot of red lines under all the 'wrong' spellings and a coomment that his spelling needed to improve. There wasn't actually a single mis-spelling, but it was all in British English, whoops, ha, ha. Forgot to translate it all into Americanese for him at spell check time, and his spelling was nothing to write home about at the time, so he missed it too. Slainte.Website
When I put your handle in Google, the first site that came up started out with an pictures of what the Sgian Dubb is, but then pretty much dedicated the rest of the ditty to how there seems to no proper spelling because there is no concensus on what is proper. Wasn't testing your spelling here. Heck, I'm not even sure I know how to pronounce the darn thing. As for your son's paper, you Brit's do have a habit of putting an "e" on the end of everything! Honestly, I could never read Shakespere (sp?) unless it was an "americanized" version. I didn't have a clue of what he had wrote and there was no dictionary to go to!
Don
PS...Got to thinking that you should feel fortunate that you don't live in an area where once your cultural background became known, your son's entire class isn't dedicating time to learning your spelling background as a multi-cultural necessity to a proper education or some psuedo life experience. lol
Edited 10/8/2002 11:51:52 AM ET by Don C.
Your comment ("Others are content to buy them after the horse has used them. ") what how trickle down economics was once explained to me especially in reference to chicken feed!
This is interesting, I wonder how manythat reply to this buy from HF and shop only bottom line prices on tools? No difference
Steve K
Sgian,
When I was a kid I worked at a service station. The owner was becoming concerned about losing customers to the discount auto service centers that were beginning to pop up. He decided to try to compete with them. Stopped selling Michelin (sp?) tires, (a very expensive product in those days) started selling cheaper "no name but just a s good tires", and began to offer $10 oil change specials and so forth. What a mistake. His customers didn't want discount tires; they wanted the best. They didn't want quickie oil changes. They wanted $25 oil changes that included complete service. (At the time this included washing the car by hand.) What his customers wanted was good product, good service, and a fair price. None of us can ever compete with the big guys on price; but they can't match us on quality and service.
BTW, my boss ended his short-lived experiment after a couple months and went back to what he did best. Those looking for a good deal went elsewhere. His faithful customers returned.
Jeff
Jeff: What his customers wanted was good product, good service, and a fair price. None of us can ever compete with the big guys on price; but they can't match us on quality and service.
Truer words have rarely been spoken, Jeff. Well said!
I kind of like the way this thread is dodging around all over the place, and there's even been some levity, too. Slainte. Website
After seeing your work on your website, and what you have posted here, it seems the obvious answer would be, "It's easy to spend money, no matter the amount. Making good investments with your money is much more difficult! (because it involves thought and consideration)
Surely not as much fun to say as what has been shared here so far, but to the point anyway.
Don
Ya know reading this thread brings up a interesting point to me. Ive mentioned it a couple of times but I really believe that the general public dont know what quality is anymore. They read about all these high priced broyhill furnishings with solids and veneers, they really dont know . What I think we ought to do is educate the public. So when they come in to your show room or shop/what ever you have to educate them first on what quality custom furniture is all about.
I dont know about you gyus but Ive had customers/friends associates tell me to look at their new cabinents (for example) and they tell me theyre solid wood custom abs. I start by telling them that they more than likely are some sort of veneer. Ill ask them to remove one of the shelves (if they are removeable) and show them the edge banding and explain that is more then likely particle board with a edge banded face. Some times if its obvious enough (and more times than not it is) show then where the PB is usually in places the average h.o. dont look like on top of a entertainment center and or the back and show them the PB.
I think we need to start educating them. Darkworksite4: When the job is to small for everyone else, Its just about right for me"
I think we need to start educating them.
I'd advise caution on how you go about educating your potential customers, Ron. Despite your observation about the general public, there are plenty of people in that group who are far more sophisticated about design, materials, and construction than, for example, me. They might not like to be talked down to by their potential vendor.
I agree that you should talk down to your customers. But there is a big difference in talking to them about what makes a quality custom product and IKEA.
Lee, I guess me and your mom see eye to eye. Ive been furnishing my house with garage sale meaning : high quality items that a lot of people dont know what they got and estate sales.. I furnished my kids BR with a solid maple BR set. 2 single beds w/ head boards foot boards side rails, desk , chair, mirror, splayed leg night stand and double dressor. I paid 300 bucks for the set it took about 20 hours of work to frefinish it, includeing takeing the chair apart and repairing it. The guy I bought it from was in his 40's tld me he had it as a kid and he got it from is uncle.
Darkworksite4: When the job is to small for everyone else, Its just about right for me"
Edited 10/5/2002 7:42:58 PM ET by Ron Teti
"But there is a big difference in talking to them about what makes a quality custom product and IKEA."
If you translate IKEA into english it spells J-U-N-K. It last about 2 years and then it needs reowrking to get the drawers to slide and stay together.
What a lot of people expect is quality Wood furniture (indoor or outdoor, it doesn't matter) at an IKEA or Mills Pride price.
AAAHHHH, Mills Pride, the IKEA of kitchen cabinets. The cabinets are cheap enough, you just shell out a lot of dough for the doors. What a con game.
Dave in Pa.
AAAHHHH, Mills Pride, the IKEA of kitchen cabinets.
Actually, IKEA sells cabinets, full-extension slides and all. OK, they fall down with that peculiar metric sizing, but i can adjust for cabinets that cost little more than i could buy raw materials. I've inspected them in showrooms where i found that the sanding and finishes were excellent. There are a limited range of styles, but i prefer a clean, modern look to arched panels so i'm happy; thankgod they have no time for "distressed" finishes.
As to low class, how much stainless steel or art glass does Mills Pride use? IKEA has had the free-standing furniture thing going on longtime, while most designers are still scared to death to make a kitchen where everything isn't firmly attached to a wall or floor. Ok, it's not Johnny Grey, but to continue the car analogy, it's Volvo...at Volkswagen prices.
It last about 2 years...
With which IKEA product(s) have you had this experience? I have only purchased a futon frame so far, but it has the smoothest working mechanism i've used...ever..and it gets converted frequently from couch to bed. I've only known about IKEA for a couple-three years, so maybe their product has improved over time, à la Grizzly, and i never saw the J-U-N-K.
Edited 10/5/2002 10:53:46 PM ET by SPLINTIE
We purchashed 4 chest of drawers from Ikea for my 2 daughters a few years ago and within 16 months I repaired 75% of the drawers. Less then two years ago my youngest daughter, Danielle, purchased an entertain center (MDF with a cherry laminate and silver piping to hold the shelfs and body together) and a 5 drawer chest of drawers for her bedroom. The drawer slides fell apart (those little ball bearings are a Bit#h to find even with a magnet.) over the summer so I had to make up some oak rails to fit the slot in the draw sides. One drawer had to made replaced completely. The entertain center list to the right because the clips and screws the hold the main body up broke the MDF side. If I could figure out a way to make a living REPAIRING Ikea furniture I get rich in a few years.
As for kitchen cabinets, I have Mills Pride cabinets (not happy with them) in my kitchen and had to make two new drawers. And yes, you can get glass doors for them. I would rather buy American Crafters, KraftMaid or Thomasville.
Thanks, Dave. Maybe you should rent the kids out as testers for Consumer Reports!
I'll be on the lookout for such problems when i browse the store next time. Thanks for the info.
If they could make more money then me , sure. What do you expect with teenagers.
My oldest is now 21 and my youngest is 18 so the days of Ikea are over. My oldest went out and bought her own bedroom set from an antique store. She got a matching set from an estate sale the owner picked up. All the pieces are cherry and are in excellent condition. Its amazing what a little Murphy's Oil Soap and some polishing wax will do.
Edited 10/8/2002 10:09:44 AM ET by DAVE6281
I can't totally disagree with you, but I do believe that most folks do know "quality" (please don't ask me to define it) when they experience it. After all, they are exposed to it every day in all sorts of ways. What people don't do, is look past the surface appearance of quality. And they aren't doing that in regards to a lot of the items they purchase and use.
Regarding the use of partleboard like products in furniture and cabinets: I do not believe that the use of these products is, by itself, grounds for dismissal from the catagory of fine furnishing. Rather it's the overall manner in which mass producers (must) fabricate their products. Personally, I use mdf quite often as ####substrate, and I see nothing wrong with that. But, it's the way I deal with it -- the stuff I add on (custom veneer, special edge banding, a knock-out finish) that makes my work special. It's attention to the details that makes custom work so special. And let's not forget that our relationship, as makers, with our clients is one of the details that gets attention and deserves compensation.
In response to Sgian's original tease: I've never had a client overtly ask me to lower my price because it can be acquired elsewhere for less. I have had people tell me that they "...don't have much to spend...." or something like that. And, depending on how hungry I was at the time, I'd respond accordingly. Luckily, after many years of producing quality and creating a satisfied client base, I can pretty much get the price I need for all my work. The downside, for my bottom line, is I always seem to "throw in" extras on a commission because I discover that the piece needs them. I'm referring to the creators disease that keeps us demanding the best from ourselves, no matter what. Good clients are savvy to that and would never ask for a "deal." Those people that might ask will probably never be clients.
Speaking as a prospective furniture buyer, I have to say that for some of us, no amount of education is likely to help. I'd be delighted to own fine furniture. I've been cruising furniture stores for 30 years and reading FWW for 16 years. I think I have some idea of the differences between Yugo class and Cadillac class furniture and some appreciation for higher quality.
But knowing the differences and being able to recognize quality hasn't persuaded me to buy any high quality furniture, because all the new furniture I've ever seen, both retail and commissioned pieces, has been priced higher than I'm willing to pay, usually by a factor somewhere between five and fifty. The same is true of most used furniture, although the multiplier may be less.
Education might help persuade a prospective buyer to pay Cadillac prices for Cadillac furniture, but from where I stand, the sellers of Yugo furniture are asking Buick prices, and the sellers of Cadillac furniture are asking gold plated Rolls Royce prices.
And just to prove that none of this is at all rational, I can easily imagine spending five or fifty times as many hours making my own furniture as it would have taken to earn the money to buy the furniture.
Uncle Dunc: Speaking as a prospective furniture buyer, I have to say that for some of us, no amount of education is likely to help. I'd be delighted to own fine furniture. I've been cruising furniture stores for 30 years and reading FWW for 16 years. I think I have some idea of the differences between Yugo class and Cadillac class furniture and some appreciation for higher quality.
My Dad was a furniture manufacturer's rep for all of his working life. He had a suite on the 9th floor of San Francisco's Merchandise Mart. I grew up knowing commercial furniture, expensive and cheap. I attended the markets and walked around to all the displays, looking at the construction and noting the prices.
But do you know what my Mom (rest her soul) furnished our home with? Not Dad's best lines, but antiques and older furniture, most of which she had to refinish herself before using. It was quality she was after, quality that she couldn't find in some of the best commercial furniture made.
More recently, there has been a surge of cheaply made imports (I've even bought some myself to fill an immediate need), likely machined with CNC equipment and assembled with underpaid labor. There are these "Oak Furniture Factory"'s on every street corner and in every mall. And what they sell is far inferior to what my mother refused to use, even when she could have gotten it "wholesale."
It seems people replace their furniture, not to mention the other "stuff" in their lives, several times over the course of a decade or so. A quality product would likely last a lifetime, or even several, as many surviving antiques indicate to us. The overall cost would be the same, but few of us can afford to buy the expensive stuff all at once, so we pay the same amount, or more, over time, laying out a smaller amount every few years.
I guess this is in the nature of a rant and I didn't intend it as such. But I sure wish the folks of this country would wake up to an understanding of true quality and what they are loosing out on by buying on price alone.
Lee,
I suppose what you say is true purely from the point of economics. Can't help but wonder though... Money can indeed buy a very fine piece of furniture and someday one of your children or grandchildren will respond to a comment about a lovely cabinet in their home saying "my (grand)father bought this. Compare to "my (grand)father made this many years ago. Isn't it wonderful?" The piece you make is your work, an expression of your very self, and that 's something money can't buy. Go ahead - make a family treasure.
Jeff
Edited 10/6/2002 10:00:57 AM ET by Jeff K
Jeff,
How true. However, the mistakes you made in that piece make better memories. My father was not a craftsman by any stretch of the imagination...my mother's imagination could craft insults at the drop of a hat. I can hear him now.."Ah, gees...if you don't have the tools...dammit (explicitives deleated). "Give it up Joe" could be heard from the kitchen..."you know that College education never taught you anything useful". Leave it to Beaver it wasen't ....
Not that this is a big concern for me right now (my ideas are there but workmanship is still in the development stages) but something you might consider is showing these customers the EXCELLENT interview article with Frank Klausz that appeared in Woodwork Magazine a few months back. (April 2002 I think.) He covers this topic in some detail and provides a very interesting read on making a living as a woodworker.
-Craig
Craig,
Thanks for that reference to Frank Klausz' article. I have the August 2002 issue of "Woodwork" magazine (issue #76). It has the index for issues 1-75. It lists an article by Frank in issue #74 (June?).
Hoping that the article might be displayed on their website, I tried to find it. Alas, "Woodwork," published by Ross Periodicals, Inc, located at the promising but ironic address of 42 Digital Drive, Novato, CA, has no website.
Rich
That sounds like the right issue. Of course, you can always order the back issue from them. If you don't have it, I'd also recommend the issue featuring Michael Fortune's excellent article on Inlay which was a few before the Frank Klausz issue.
Great magazine, but they really need a web site. I've recommended the magazine to several people and a web site would really drive the point home if they could get some sampling of the product. Besides, it isn't always the easiest to find at newsstands.
-Craig
I don't know if this is old ground that has been covered previously but it does raise the question of:
My QC background says that quality is adherence to specifications. But it has to be more than that because then IKIA items that meet tolerance criteria and determined strength standards would be a quality piece.
It has to be more than good design -- there is good design in "junk" items; and it obviously goes beyond being "all" wood because that can include MDF.
Quality as a term is as elusive as "art" -- but there has to be some basic, inclusive minimums before an item is labeled as quality. So what are they?
> ....I can easily imagine spending five or fifty times as many hours making my own furniture as it would have taken to earn the money to buy the furniture.
Unc' -
You can't put a price on stuff like that.
Years ago my wife's father made a rocking horse for my kids. From a woodworking point of view, it was a disaster. From a toy, memorabelia point of view it's irreplaceable.
I'm not suggesting your stuff is not high quality by any means, of course.
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
I send them to Glauberman's a high-end furniture store near us. Tables, armoir's and cabinets: $8,000 to $ 50,000. For the quality and design, in my opinion, everything is so expensive, it makes me look like a bargain.
And what do their very rich clientele want? GLOSS. Everything is so glossy I feel like I'm lost in a house of mirrors. What is Glauberman's selling? Interior decoration. Their highly polished and sophisticated sales staff, can select the furnishings, cabinets, rugs and wall coverings from their showroom and from other suppliers to match any architecture any period. Rooms easily price out at $25,000 to $50,000. For an entire home, better budget $200,000 to $500,000---not including the house!!
And to be fair, there is a lot of really neat handcrafted woodworked items. But I would be happy to duplicate for half the price.
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