Time to go to school….
I have a 5HP 20 gallon Campbell Hausfeld compressor. 5.8 scfm @ 90 PSI and 6.6 scfm @ 40 PSI. A couple years ago I purchased a HVLP spray gun from Harbor Freight. The saying “you get what you pay for” has never been more true, as I paid about $25. Anyway, I think the gun was a bad idea as it sucked every time I tried to use it. It left a bad taste in my mouth.
I need to put a finish on some kitchen cabinets I am building and I would like to see if I can do it using HVLP. Do I need to buy a setup like Fuji or Turbinare? Are there guns on the market that will do a good job, with my compressor, at a reasonable price, say under $200. Are there specific guns for finishing options? Or will a good gun shoot most of the spectrum.
Any help will be greatly appreciated. I will look in on this thread frequently and will answer any questions as quickly as I can.
Thanks
Ryan
Replies
Hi Norm
People like Binks and deVilbiss do excellent high-end HVLP conversion guns which run on conventional high pressure compressors. I've used the HVLP version of the DeVilbiss JGA which I liked, every bit as good as the original high pressure gun but honestly not that much better than my Wagner Industrial HVLP set-up, although it can handle latex. The biggest downsides to good conversion guns are the price tickets and the enormous amount of air they require. If you go this route check the FAD (free air delivered) capacity of your compressor against the gun manufacturers spec.
Scrit
--- > "If you go this route check the FAD (free air delivered) capacity of your compressor against the gun manufacturers spec." <--
I looked on the compressor this morning and I couldn't locate this information. If I contact the manufacturer should this be information that they will redily have? Also, would you know if I need to be concerned about the duty cycle of my compressor?
Thanks for all the help.
Ryan
At a rough guestimate you could take the FAD to be around 60% to 65% of your compressor displacement which should cover the worst case scenario. The duty cycle is the real killer. Commercial shops seem to aim for a cycle of 25 to 35% on reciprocating compressors. The guys I get my air and vacuum fittings from reckon that you should never have a system with more than a 50% duty cycle unless you want to see premature wear in the compressor - probably why the cheap aluminium head shop compressors seem to have a 2 to 3 year lifespan in body shops. i'd only be concerned about it if my sessions ran on for several hours every day.
A couple of people have mentioned problems with condensation - the solution is to put an auto body shop (coalescent oil/water) filter between the compressor and the gun. 10 to 20 microns should be good enough for spraying most stuff.
And I'd agree with the other respondent's comments about a starting kit - were I starting from scratch I'd go for a small portable compressor, air nailer and an HVLP 3-stage turbine outfit
Scrit
Edited 2/5/2004 12:34:38 PM ET by Scrit
Thanks for the info...
If I were to go the 3 stage route, wont that run me $500 - $700?
Yes, there are some good HVLP guns that will run off of a compressor. As mentioned in the other reply, you'll need to compare your compressor's capacity to each guns requirements. (But, with a 5hp/20gal machine, you will find lots of options.)
I have the wagner conversion gun, and a pressure pot to go with it. The pressure pot holds the finish, with hoses going from there to the gun, and from there to the compressor. This setup allows the gun to work in any position, including upside-down. This feature might be important to you if you will be doing cabinetry.
The reason that I like the conversion gun, is because it will spray almost anything. From the finest lacquers, to latex paint (thinned with water or alcohol), it can do the trick. I can use it for woodworking projects, or for just about anything that my handman-business brings me. (Just last week, I primed and painted 16 pairs of exterior shutters.)
Good morning,
What would it cost for a setup like the one you have, a wagner conversion gun, and a pressure pot? Do you run it off your air compressor?
The gun and the paint pot, and the hoses to connect the two of them, were about $300.
Yes, I run mine off of the compressor. I have a 5hp/20gal -- at least that's how it was advertised. I strongly doubt that my compressor actually puts out 5hp, since it runs on a normal 15amp circuit.
http://www.gleempaint.com/hvcongunnew.html
That's where I got mine. That page lists the price as $130, but that doesn't include the pressure pot or hoses. If you scroll down through the comments section, you'll see other links for those items.
The only thing that I don't like about my setup, is the lack of flexibility, and the short length, in the hoses that connect the gun to the pot. I have to hold the pot in one hand, and the gun in the other. And because the hoses don't flex much, I have to move both hands in tandem a lot.
I'll bet that, if you talk to the sales reps, they might have a solution for that.
Vast projects should not be founded on half vast ideas.
homesteadfinishing.com has a forum. That place can answer all your HVLP questions.
http://www.homesteadfinishing.com jeff will can answer all your questions and set you up wit a gun that'll blow your socks off and he's one heck of a nice guy to.
I also recommned http://www.compliantspraysystems.com they sell accuspray. its the type of gun I use. pretty good results. everyone i know who owns one is happy about it.
Darkworksite4:
Estamos ganando detrás el estado de Calif. Derrotando a un #### a la vez. DESEA VIVO LA REVOLUCIÓN
I have seen http://www.homesteadfinishing.com mentioned with high regards several times so I think I might give Jeff a call. At this point in the thread, 11 posts, I'm thinking about still using my compressor. If I am not as concerned about fatigue, is skipping the pressure pot a bad idea. Does it add any performance value, or does it just make the process easier? So I have a gun and an in line filter to take care of any condensation. What type of cup setup is recommended - gravity fed, or standard?
I might eventually get to the point where I want to invest in a 3/4 stage setup, but I think adding on to what I already have will serve my purpose best. If you have any more thoughts on the matter PLEASE post them, because I will take everything into consideration. Even if I don't use your recommendations now I will more than likely draw from them in the future.
Thanks,
Ryan
There is the issue of condensation in the air line, which is solved as mentioned. But the other issue is that the air is cold (as it expands, it cools). And the cold air causes condensation at/near the work. That is what kills me on marginal days, not the moisture that condenses in the tank and lines.
The sales pitch for a turbine driven HVLP system includes the point that the air delivered is warm. I didn't think much about it at the time I got the pitch, but when I was spraying with the conversion gun, and the results were like a much more humid day than it seemed, that sales pitch started to make sense. ________________________Charlie Plesums Austin, Texashttp://www.plesums.com/wood
Do you think a pressure pot would help if added to the equation? Does a little moisture affect every type of finish? I am planning on using a FURH water base finish.
Thanks,
Ryan
Back in the dark ages of high pressure spraying, I loved my big pressure pot. In those days I was doing more houses than furniture, and could spray in all directions without worrying about (or lifting) the cup.
My HVLP conversion gun has a gravity cup, which is remarkably convenient, even for table tops and other supposedly difficult furniture positions. I like not having to clean as much, even though I need to fill the cup fairly often.
I have not sprayed any of the new water base finish, but I suspect the small amount of moisture taken from the atmosphere (because of the cold air coming out of the gun) would not be a problem. I don't think the pressure pot would change this part of the equation.
The moisture coming out of the air on humid days IS a problem with lacquer, which is what I primarily spray these days. ________________________Charlie Plesums Austin, Texashttp://www.plesums.com/wood
Conditions .... This is another area I will need to learn. I live in Northern Ca. and currently it is 55 degrees with the humidity at about 60% . I was hoping that once I figure out what equipment to buy I could bring my pieces outside and spray away. If I had to I could spray inside my small 1 car garage. It's possible that I might be able to go up to a friends shop and have all the room I want. Is the 60% humidity way to high? I think a 3/4 stage system is out of the question right now. I'm thinking that I could get a nice gravity fed gun and see if that will do the trick for me.
Thanks
Ryan
Sounds like the question is answered.
You can't go for a good turbine system now, but have a fairly large comperssor. So a conversion gun is the only choice. If you need more air than the compressor puts out, pause in your spraying until the compressor catches up. With the 20 gallon tank, you can do a lot even if you must pause.
You appear to be leaning towards a gravity feed. I love my Porter Cable conversion gun with gravity feed.
You are planning on using water base finish, so the moisture problem from cold air should be far less.
One more trick... When I build bookcases or entertainment centers, I leave the back off, put them on saw horses "on their back" and have far easier access for spraying. Sometimes I even stand "inside" the cabinet. ________________________Charlie Plesums Austin, Texashttp://www.plesums.com/wood
Is this the Porter Cable gun you have: PSH1? I briefly looked at it, but I read that it needs 8 cfm @ 90 psi. My compressor can't handle that load.
View Image
The PC gun is the identical twin, part for part of the Harbor Freight 43430. Sells for
65.00 and is purple anodized. Works well with poly and shellac!
duster
Yes that is my gun, except mine has the pressure reducer at the gun - an extra knob and pressure gauge that connects at the at the air hose connection point, between the gun and the hose.
If a tool requires 8 CFM at 90 PSI, that is what would be required for continuous operation at "full throttle".
If you are actually spraying 50% of the time, then you only need 4 CFM, as long as your tank is big enough to even the load out, and you aren't using a bypass gun where the air is drawn continuously and the trigger only controls the paint (I haven't seen one of those in years). And if you cut back on volume (small spray pattern) you need proportionally less.
My compressor is rated 5.1 CFM at 90 psi, with a 13 gallon tank. Only rarely can it not keep up with my spraying (the carcase for a big entertainment center comes to mind as the "last time"), so I just gave my arm a rest for a minute, and the compressor caught up.
Filling the paint cup also allows time for the compressor to catch up.
Of course, while I am spraying, the compressor runs almost continuously - which it surely isn't designed to do, so I know that for those 20 minute periods I am putting an extra heavy load on the compressor. It then gets to rest for an hour or two (like I do) while the lacquer dries, before the next coat. ________________________Charlie Plesums Austin, Texashttp://www.plesums.com/wood
I dont have a pressure pot or a remote feed system. I use a 2 qt cup gun and in some insrances for smaller jobs I use a 7oz cup attachment for the gun. I think the remote system is good for spraying inside cabs and places where it might be a bit awkward using cup. But I havent had any problem with mine.
As far as cup type. I dont have a gravity feed. I have a suction. I cant really answer any questions about gravity feed but I think it would not be a very good set up for spraying the inside of cabs or places where you have to tilt the gun or spray upside down.
As far as the turbine goes. I think you would get more bang for your buck using a conversion gun ILO a turbine. I had a turbine set up and I sold it for the conversion gun and Im very happy with it.
Accuspray sells both set ups.
Darkworksite4:
Estamos ganando detrás el estado de Calif. Derrotando a un #### a la vez. DESEA VIVO LA REVOLUCIÓN
Got a compressor with the same output as you do, and I have an Asturo 9010 with a pressure pot. The compressor has no trouble keeping up with the gun. Usually set the compressor pressure at 70 PSI, the the gun sprays at 25 PSI at the tip. If you're gonna spray acrylic or layex, you really need a pressure feed. It makes spraying inside of cabs easy as the gun can be turned any way without sucking air. The Asturo line has about a dozen tip sizes for anything you want to spary. Check'em out at Homesteadfinishing.com.
I have a similar compressor, and am quite satisfied with the Porter Cable conversion gun (around $100)
As a couple people have already noted, the conversion guns use a lot of air - I can get ahead of the compressor, and have to pause occasionally to let it catch up. So I am putting a huge load on the compressor when I spray. And that isn't the heaviest duty compressor in the world, so I fear I will eventually kill it with spraying.
The other disadvantage of a conversion gun is that the air delivered is cold (feel the temperature with an air gun or existing spray gun). So if the humidity is high (or in cool weather) the air can cause condensation in the finish - the white blooming in lacquer. Simply put, more days are marginal weather for spraying.
If I were doing it over, I would get a smaller compressor for nail guns, etc., and a separate HVLP turbine and gun, which presumably delivers warmer, dryer air, and would hopefully allow me to spray at times that I cannot with the conversion gun - like on humid, cool, or rainy days.
________________________
Charlie Plesums Austin, Texas
http://www.plesums.com/wood
The Sharpe 998HVLP is available for $199 on the Web and does an excellent job. It comes with a pressurized cup and regulator which I highly recommend. It uses about 6 CFM.
Astro makes a gravity gun for about $100 that lots of professionals recommend. Also available on the web, and uses around 7 CFM if memory serves.
For higher end professional guns, Asturo (not Astro) Eco SSP is the best I have tried for a low CFM gun. It is expensive but puts down an excellent finish with about 5 CFM. Price is around $400+ depending on what you get with it.
Binks Mach1 is also an excellent gun in the $400 range. With the 92/92P fluid tip and air cap it puts down a fine finish and only uses about 6 CFM.
All these guns will work fine with your compressor. The figures you mentioned in your first post ARE the free air CFM and those pressures.
As for water, a simple filter/separator on the compressor outlet is all you need if you are powering one gun. Cost is $25 t0 $40.
I very much recommend a pressure feed setup over siphon. You get better atomization with less air. Siphon feed and low CFM don't seem to go together very well.
I've got over thirty years finishing experience, over 20 years of it industrial, and these recommendations are from direct experience. These people who make a big deal about CFM requirements and water problems seem to be repeating old wive's tales rather than speaking from experience. Yes, water can be a problem, but a simple filter/separator is more than adequate for one gun, as long as you drain it as needed. As for the high CFM, the guns I recommended do fine on low CFM. I do a lot of on-site work with a small compressor just like yours. You can get setups that use a lot of air, but the newer generation is a lot more efficient.
There are plenty of other good systems out there, but these are the ones I know about. Any of them will give you better performance and more versatility than any turbine system I have used. The accuspray gun recommended above is said to spray well, but uses around 13 CFM, if I recall correctly, which is a little too much for your compressor.
Michael R
FYI I use a accuspray that is a LVLP. i think it is called the versamax or something to that effect. I use my 4 gal 1 1/2 hp emglo. It is designed for use with a small compressor. it can use siphon, pressure feed and even a 2 1/2 gal remote pot. I use the 2 qt siphon as its all I need.
Darkworksite4:
Estamos ganando detrás el estado de Calif. Derrotando a un #### a la vez. DESEA VIVO LA REVOLUCIÓN
>>FYI I use a accuspray that is a LVLP.
Thanks - that's good to know. I also checked the website and the actual consumption of their regular guns is 8.5 to 10 CFM, not 13 as I thought - still just a bit on the high side for a portable compressor.
I have to admit I'm a little prejudiced against Accuspray because of the way they hype their equipment vs. how little useful data they put out, but a lot of people swear by them so they must perform OK. I also hate screw-on paint cups.
Even with the Accuspray, a conversion gun will give better overall performance and versatility than a turbine. Also, most users that I know find the hot air from a turbine more of a nuisance than an advantage, not to mention the huge hoses.
Regarding pressure pots, I have a 2-quart that I never use. With a 2 1/2 gallon pot, you can put a gallon, quart, or even pint can into the pot, spray what you want to spray, and take the can back out and seal it. Run half a pint of thinner through the gun, wipe it down, and you're done. No pot cleaning. Set the pot on the floor and use a 20 or 25 foot hose, and you can paint anything without worrying about where to put the pot like you do with the smaller ones.
Michael R.
Woodwiz:
I have a Accuspray 23k. I agree with you regarding the huge hose. It is cumbersome and I wish I knew of a way to avoid it. This is especially a problem when trying to shoot a finish in tight quarters, like inside a cabinet.
With respect to the turbine heated air, I disagree with you. The heated air gives you something to think about for sure, but one thing is that it is usually consistent (in temperature), regardless of ambient conditions where one might be finishing. In that respect, I've found it gives a bit better control versus than having to adjust my thinning and technique based on room temp - as I must with HVLP conversion system. My two cents...
>>>With respect to the turbine heated air, I disagree with you. The heated air gives you something to think about for sure, but one thing is that it is usually consistent (in temperature), regardless of ambient conditions where one might be finishing. In that respect, I've found it gives a bit better control versus than having to adjust my thinning and technique based on room temp - as I must with HVLP conversion system. My two cents...
If you think about it, the temperature from a compressor is just as consistent as the temperature from a turbine --- just cooler. I've finished professionally for over 30 years and never found any kind of difficulty adjusting for ambient conditions from 40 to 110 deg. F with conventional or conversion guns. I have found in hot weather that turbine guns get uncomfortable to hold and the finish doesn't flow out as well without added retarder or flow improver. The finish is already hot, the substrate is hot, and the hot air just makes it worse. With a compressor in cold weather, you're usually working in a heated area so the temperature variance is not so great. I've never found the hot air from a turbine to be any kind of advantage, myself, and I've heard the same opinion from others who finish a lot. Opinions, of course, may vary, but that's my experience.
About hoses: On my pressure pots I use Binlks soft 3/8" air hose and their clear 1/4" plastic fluid hose. It's the best combinaton I've found so far. Don't know what you can do about a turbine hose.
Regarding another post, I've also never found the adiabatic cooling from a compressor powered gun to be a significant contributor to blushing. I've sprayed lacquer in sub-freezing temperatures a time or two with no blushing or other phenomena other than slow flow-out. (I did worry about adhesion, but it worked out OK.) In my experence, blushing is mostly dependent on ambient humidity and the quality of the solvents in your finish.
Michael R.
Mike, you are right that the adiabatic cooling is not an issue in cold weather, but it seems to be an issue (in my experience) in humid weather.
Most of my finishing is done outdoors. I can be doing fine throughout the day, whether it is 50 or 90 (this is Texas, so I don't do 30), but when evening comes and the cooling temperature brings a corresponding rise in humidity. I have gotten blush when I was hoping to squeeze in one final coat. And if we have one of those days where it occasionally rains, I can't spray even during the dry periods.
I have been figuring that those problems would be reduced with a turbine, so my plan (when my compressor dies) is to replace the compressor with a small one just for nail guns, and go to a turbine for spraying. If you don't think that would help....________________________Charlie Plesums Austin, Texashttp://www.plesums.com/wood
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