Hi Pete,
O.K., I’ve completely lost the knack of putting down a flawless layer of varnish.
I’m using a new can of P&L #38 clear. I’ve thinned it about 10%. When using a nice badger hair brush, I leave holidays and brush marks – so, not thin enough, right? Well, at 20% thinner, it runs and sags like the dickens.
Sooo, to heck with the brush – sand it out and go to foam brush. No brush marks, but definitely slower, and but by the time I get all the way around the face frame, the first edge is no longer wet and the darn stuff runs and sags on the 30 degree sloped edge. ARRRRRGGGGGHHHHH!
I know that I’m going to have to wet sand this and rub it out to fix it, but usually I don’t have to do that. Any hints as to what might be wrong? What should I try?
Mike D
Replies
Mike,
First take a deep breath....... Relax.
What is it you are varnishing?
It sounds like you are trying to lay a little too much on. FWIW, I use foam brushes for most of my varnishing.
As far as wet sanding, you may consider skipping that and using some Norton champagne magnum (no load) 320 grit to do the sanding. When I have a stubborn varnish to sand, that is what I reach for. Of course, if 320 is not aggressive enough, I'll go to 220. You want to be careful when sanding varnish not to go through to the layer below.
Check with an automotive or auto body supply shop for this type of paper. It' a type I use in all grits.
Anyways, get back to me on the project. We'll put our heads together.
Peter
Hi Pete,Deep breaths - yes. :)Somehow I've lost the knack for thinning varnish so that it flows out smoothly and thinly and maintains a wet edge. I'm either getting too thick a film with that "bar top" look and sneaky/streaky holidays, or making the finish so thin that it's runny on anything but a dead-flat horizontal surface.So, to answer your questions....>>What is it you are varnishing?<<
It's the last faceframe on a piece of furniture that I've made for my wife. Basically, it's a curly maple display cabinet made in 3 joined sections. The two end boxes taper back from the front of the center box at 30 degrees so the the piece makes less of a presence in a small room. I was able to prefinish "on the flat" (horizontal) each part before assembly, except the front faceframe. This faceframe required joining 2 end sections at 30 degrees to the center section. The three joined sections result in a faceframe that is 7 feet long, so the wet edge tends to not be wet by the time I get around the frame if I try to varnish is all at once. So, I do the center frame to the join edges, and let it dry for a couple of hours, then I cut in each end frame.>>It sounds like you are trying to lay a little too much on.<<
This may well be the case. In fact, as I've mentioned earlier, I'm getting that ugly plastic "bar-top" look.This obviously means that I'm putting it on too thick, but I'm having trouble finding that point where it's thinned enough to flow on smoothly and yet not run down the angled frame members. It's like I've never painted before. I'm just about to the point where I'm going to abandon the gloss finish look, cut my varnish 50% with mineral spirits, and do a nice dull wiped on finish with a rag! However, SWMBO says that if she sees me with 0000 steel wool in hand near the rest of the cabinet, she will not feed me for a week. Alas!>>As far as wet sanding, you may consider skipping that and using some Norton champagne magnum (no load) 320 grit to do the sanding. When I have a stubborn varnish to sand, that is what I reach for. Of course, if 320 is not aggressive enough, I'll go to 220. You want to be careful when sanding varnish not to go through to the layer below.<<
I'll go check out my local autobody shop for this sandpaper - a nice no loading sandpaper would be a boon at this stage. Best regards,
Mike DEdited 7/20/2008 11:04 pm ET by Mike_DEdited 7/20/2008 11:06 pm ET by Mike_DEdited 7/20/2008 11:07 pm ET by Mike_D
Edited 7/20/2008 11:08 pm ET by Mike_D
OK, now that I've got all the whining out of my system, here's my plan.Since I'm using an excellent product, with which I've previously gotten excellent results, the problem is with how I'm using it. Since I'm getting rotten results now with both brush and foam brush, clearly I'm not thinning my varnish correctly. Sooooo....
I now have 3 test boards. Each one will get a different proportion of odorless mineral spirits and varnish. Sanded and then sealed with shellac, sanded again and then three coats. If that doesn't work, throw the can away, order another can and hope that the batch was somehow bad.To apply, I've just received two brushes made from the inner ear hair of the eastern Tibetan Ox (NOT yak) that I'm dying to try out.I'll let you know how it works out.Mike D
Mike,
This is a helluva a dialoque you're having :)
I wish I could have had you with me today. What do you think I'm doing? Restoring and varnishing an exterior door. What a door though. The side lights are rails and stiles with a carved panel that is about six feet tall. The carving includes scrolls, trees with loooong roots, leafs, a cluster of grapes and a lot of feathers. The other side has a skeleton key, a scroll a shovel with trees and roots.
The main doors top panel has a water motif with a carved seagull, a trident a long trumpet a sun and moon with clouds.
The bottom panel has a lobster, coral around the perimeter, a long jellyfish and a couple of fish (all carved in mahogany)
It may sound busy but the proportions and layout is just beautiful. The reason for the water motif is it's the entrance to a house on a private island off the coast of Connecticut.
I explained all this to you because of the wet edges I must keep going while outside.
It's been said of varnishing, it's not how you lay it on, it's how you brush it out. Is there any way for you to segment the work you are doing? That seven foot section should be pretty easy to lay on with a foam brush and lightly brush it as you go. I would consider laying a couple of feet down and then give it a light leveling and keep going.
I also think you are relying on the thinning aspect too much. Most varnishes don't need a lot of thinning unless you plan on padding it on.
I just get the feeling you're not brushing it out at all. That's why you are getting such a thick coat. Practice that on your samples.
Where did you get the brushes? Today, I was using a two inch foam brush and one called a "flat wash" brush. The bristles are about an inch long and an inch wide, very soft and taper to a nice chisel at the end. It is from ox ear hair. Honest!
Keep me posted and don't make yourself nuts on this. You'll get it.
Peter
Hi Pete,
Sounds like a wonderful project.I'm still leaning towards the finish being a little too thick, because the section that I determinedly brushed out did not level properly. This stuff is really drying fast. Touching an edge of this three to five minutes after laying it down is leaving a permanent brush mark. Were I doing this years ago, I would have slowed it's drying time with a little turpentine, but I've read that the rosin content is so variable, and often so high in modern turpentine that you can't be sure that your varnish will harden if you use it.Kerosene is also listed somewhere as a slowing agent, but I'm not about to experiment with the chemistry at this point.I'll try being more aggressive in my brushout and see what happens on my test piece.Best regards,
Mike D
With a fast varnish, three to five minutes is too long. Brush it out as you go.
I know what you are saying about the quick dry though. PITA
A little linseed oil may help, but I rarely do things like that.
Some of the mixtures I see just make me shake my head and ask WHY?? 13 Bat wings, 13 cow urine and linseed oil would be one.......................
PG
Cow urine? Hummmmmm. (Here, bossy, bossy, bossy....Nahhh! :) )
Edited 7/21/2008 10:44 pm ET by Mike_D
OK, I promised to report on my experiments and I've discovered a few things.1. Saving a foam brush for the next coat by putting it in a plastic bag leaves it limp, limp, limp - at least if you are using the ones from Lowes and using P&L #38. Even just a couple of hours in the bag. It will NOT brush out the varnish on the next coat. Toss it. Geez, it only cost's a dollar.2. For me, at least, mixing up enough P&L and mineral sprits to cover several coats is a screw-up. Even if I cover the mix in my Bell jar with nitrogen/argon to prevent additional oxygenation and cross-linking of the varnish, apparently I've introduced enough oxygen dipping in the brush that my P&L #38 starts to set up, regardless. In my case, it starts "thickening", and by the next day it simply doesn't flow out as nicely as a fresh mix does. So, look at the pictures of the experts using varnish - notice that they are using little throw-away plastic cups or small cans, mix up ONLY what you need for THIS session, and toss the remainder.3. Using a nice fine, FIRM brush really helps. I have a new Gramercy (did I spell that right?) brush made specifically for varnish and, a) the firmness helps me follow Pete's advice and brush my varnish out sufficiently, and b) the fineness of the bristles coupled with a true chisel shape and ample internal reservoir makes flowing on the varnish without leaving brush marks much easier.4. I, at least, am going to get occasional window-paining and small sags. So, stop whining, let it fully set, rub out the obnoxious places, polish them with rotten stone, and get on with the piece! Plus this is the last piece that I'm going to make where the finish of the whole cabinet is glossy - it looks nice with figured wood, but is way too fussy, and I suspect will soon get to looking shop worn. At least I can rub it out and wax it when that occurs.Mike D
Edited 7/24/2008 4:43 pm ET by Mike_D
Mike, I've been following this discussion with interest because I've been having much the same problem as you. My conclusions are also pretty much the same as yours, so far. I have a lot to learn yet, but I'm definitely buying my finishes in small amounts from now on. Good luck.
Hi KWL,
This is one of those times when I realize that finishing is fully as much art as science. I improve for a while, think that I've got it all under control, and then humility comes calling - darn!
Pete and the others on this forum are a great help, though.
Good luck with your current project,
Mike D
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