Replies

1. 
   ChasStanford | Apr 05, 2003 02:56am | #1

   Well... I've not sawn enough veneer to make one dull (I doubt I could in a lifetime of woodworking; veneer is not rough on steel) but they're inexpensive enough to be throw away tools - even the decent ones.  I think mine cost $ 20 bucks or so and it cuts just fine.

1. 
   JayS | Apr 05, 2003 06:15am | #2

   I've had the same question about my veneer saw.  Seems dull.  I can crosscut through any veneer much faster with an xacto knife or utility knife than with that saw.  It takes many  passes across a straightedge to cut all the way through veneer that's only 1/24 inch thick with the saw, but only 2 or 3 with the knife blade.  There should be a way to sharpen the saw.  If the utility knife is a better tool for the job, that's fine with me, but it seem like the saw wouldn't continue to be made or sold if it didn't serve the function well. 

1. 
   TomMGTC | Apr 05, 2003 03:04pm | #3

   Have any of you tried using a rotary cutter and a self healing mat (the type sold at fabric stores for quilters). I was turned on to them by a local furniture maker who does a lot of veneer work. I have found thaem to work better than the veneer saw or x-acto knife. Used one to cut all the veneer for my daughters maple and lacewood sleigh be and it worked flawlessly. If you have ever used lacewood veneer you would really appreciate the ease with which this cutter works. Tom

1. 
   creekwood | Apr 05, 2003 03:31pm | #4

   The rotary cutter sounds like a good idea. As far as sharpening a veneer saw, Tage Frid said to bevel the edges on both sides of the saw so they come to a point, so it's more like a knife. File each side of each tooth at the same angle, so you can cut either direction. The idea is to slice it, more that removing a saw kerf.

2. 
   ChasStanford | Apr 05, 2003 04:46pm | #5

   If a utility knife works for you, and I don't see why it wouldn't given how thin veneer is these days, then use it.  I think the saw's original design was for a time when veneer was thicker. 

2. 
   JerseyJohn | Apr 08, 2003 04:25pm | #6

   Dave Bilgers site has text and illustration on sharpening a veneer saw

   http://www.wood-veneers.com/veneering_saw_sharpen_act.htm

   Regarding rotary cutters;

   I do not recommend that you use them for the following reason

   It is a pinch cut, the edge of the cut is not 90 degrees, therefore when you splice your veneer there will be a cavity.  This will be a big problem when you are finishing your work.

   Either use a utility knife, scalpel or exacto knife.  Another excellent tool you already have is a plane.  Here's how,

   Stack your veneer to be cut between two boards that are inline with each other.  Use deadmen to generate pressure.  Plane in a sweeping fashion toward the seam thereby using the MDF boards as the straight line reference.  It's called a shooting board.

   John Ersing

   Veneer Systems

1. 
   TomMGTC | Apr 08, 2003 07:09pm | #7

   I'm sorry but I can't see the difference between using a rotary cutter and an x-acto knife. Both would appear to me to give the same type of cut. I have not experienced any seam problems either prior to or after finishing. You do have to angle the cutter slightly when cutting but I have found that the same holds true for an x-acto or utility knife.Tom

1. 
   JerseyJohn | Apr 08, 2003 08:22pm | #8

   Tom,

   It has to do with the cutting angle.  You mentioned that you tilt the cutting tool and this compensates for the way that these tools are sharpened.

   Rotary cutter and utility / exacto knife profile come to a V shape bevel.  This would product an angled profile on the edge of the veneer if the tool is held in the up / down position.

   An analogy would be if you were making a cutting board.  Imagine if there were a one, two or three tilt to your table saw!!!  What would the joint quality look like? It would be a very visible seam.

   The same thing with veneer...You want 90 degree edges.  The same quality as if you ripped it on a TS and then ran it across a jointer :-)

   The finishing issue comes into play when there is a cavitation or slight V shape cavity at the seams.  The cross section looking something like this   /  at the joint Imagine butting two boards each ripped with the blade at two degrees.  A match at the bottom and a slight opening at the top.   That cavity can draw in finishes more so than at other points in the field resulting in unsmooth and uneven finish.  Hold a finished piece up so that the joint reflects light.  Look at the finish and see if you see a slight depression anywhere along the joint line. John Ersing

   Veneer Systems

1. 
   SgianDubh | Apr 08, 2003 08:51pm | #9

   You're right, John. A square edge is the ideal, and the V caused by many knives can reveal the joint lines exactly as you describe-- perhaps a little less obviously in open grained timbers than in fine or closed grained timbers-- oak compared to cherry for instance.

   Your recommendation of stacking a bunch of cut veneers between boards and planing is good-- it's what I usually end up doing because a sawn or knifed cut isn't quite good enough. A good edge joint in veneers can often, but not always, be formed by using a knife with a single bevel, especially if book matching, but you have to be careful which cut edge is being joined to which-- you can end up with half a V, or something like this, |/.  I've never tried the pie cutter things, so I can't say from experience how they work. Slainte.Website                                   The poster formerly known as Sgian Dubh.

2. 
   ChasStanford | Apr 08, 2003 11:22pm | #10

   It really doesn't matter much what you use to cut veneer, doesn't it all need to be jointed  before laying?  Especially if it's a joint in the middle of large field? 

   Your post seems to imply that you could get away without jointing a cut made with a veneer saw which has not been my experience.  That said, I don't use a lot of veneer in the work that I do so I may be missing the boat somewhere.

   So, if your going to joint the stuff you could cut it with a ruddy butcher's knife and it wouldn't make much difference.  Just like a rip cut on full-size stock that will be cleaned up with a plane - who cares what you used to cut it?

1. 
   JerseyJohn | Apr 08, 2003 11:56pm | #11

   Didn't mean to come off as there being only one way to joint veneer.  I only wanted to illustrate the goal, being a square 90 degree edge to your cut.   This produces invisible splice lines (or nearly invisible).  How you achieve that goal is irrelevant.  I have seen it done with many, many different kinds of jigs, fixtures, production machinery, hand tools, homemade cutting tools and more.  

   When I was at Wendell Castles shop he use's a plane with a shoe (i think thats the base plate name)  about 20 inches long and deadmen.  At Paul Schurch's he cut's all of his veneer with a 1 1/2 iinch chisel that he sharpens so cleanly you could shave with it.  I provide guillotines to production manufacturers and veneer saw's to custom cabinet shops.

   They all do the same thing differently, obtain a 90 degree cut on the joint to minimize and hopefully eliminate the joint line.

   http://www.schurchwoodwork.com/

   Here is a link to Paul's site,  have a look his portfolio and see what he does with that chisel.  John Ersing

   Veneer Systems

1. 
   TomMGTC | Apr 09, 2003 01:43am | #12

   Your original reply about rotary cutters is what I was questioning.

   "Regarding rotary cutters;

   I do not recommend that you use them for the following reason

   It is a pinch cut, the edge of the cut is not 90 degrees, therefore when you splice your veneer there will be a cavity.  This will be a big problem when you are finishing your work.

   Either use a utility knife, scalpel or exacto knife."

   You said to use an exacto or utility knife instead. You now state that they both provide the same type of cut.

     "Rotary cutter and utility / exacto knife profile come to a V shape bevel.  This would product an angled profile on the edge of the veneer if the tool is held in the up / down position."

   Have you ever actually used a rotary cutter to join veneers? I have used several methods to cut veneer or joint including as a veneer saw, utility knife, sanding block, plane, rotary cutter, and back cutting with a flush trim router bit. I have had great results in difficult veneers using the router method and the rotary cutter.

   If the proper technique is used, excellent results can be hed using a rotary cutter. It is all in the technique, which is true of all the methods discussed.Tom

1. 
   ChasStanford | Apr 09, 2003 02:19am | #13

   I guess what I was saying is that if the last thing to touch the sawn/cut edge of a section of veneer is a handplane then what one used to actually cut it makes little, if any difference. 

   In laying up a field of veneer I would no more trust the edge produced by a veneer saw, knife, or anything else than I would the edge produced by a rip saw on a piece of 3/4" stock.  Cut/sawn edges need dressing with a plane (or a flush trim bit or other method if one is disposed to that).

   I think you agree with that Tom?

2. 
   TomMGTC | Apr 09, 2003 03:12am | #14

   No, I am saying that the rotary cutter gave results of hight enough quality that they needed no touching up with a handplane, router or anything else. Now maybe my standards of what a joint should be are not up to what they should be but all the veneer in the the bed in the attached picture was joined using a rotary cutter. This is the first project I used that tool on and the joints came out so well that one of the judges in the show thought that I had bought the panels (I found this out well after the fact). There are no V cut problems at any of the joints. I don't claim to be an expert but the joints I acheived with the rotary cutter rival any I have done using a router, handplane or sandpaper. Tom

3. 
   ChasStanford | Apr 09, 2003 02:10pm | #16

   Thanks guys.  I assume that nobody would have any particular objections or warnings about jointing the cut edges if one's veneer saw (or craft knife, etc.) might not be quite up to snuff?

   Beautiful work, Tom.

2. 
   DonC | Apr 09, 2003 03:40am | #15

   I started this thread with the original question. when at my last club meeting I checked out a vido tape on veneering.

      I recently watched the 90 minute video showing a guy making a checker board using only a veneer saw. He also described how to sharpen it. Now that I have the saw sharp, it get glue up edges with no problem. The name of the video is "Getting Started with Veneers" by Frank Pollaro. He owns Flamingo Specialty veneers.tel 975-672-7600.

   http://www.flamingovener.com