I am a newbie and have been enjoying reading this forum. Here’s my situation – in our breakfast nook, we current have an old kitchen table that is 40″ x 40″ or so. This was a hand me down and it turns out the top is MDF with some type of veneer on top. It has been sanded and finished previously and now the veneer is bubbling. Thus, this crappy table top needs to go. The table itself extends to about 60″ by 40″ but no one knows where the leaf is at. Since we may soon have our third child, we need a bigger table anyways, so here’s my plan – the apron and legs are sturdy, so remove the old top and replace with 3/4″ birch ply that is edge banded with 4/4 birch in the shape of 60×40 and replace the sides of the apron where the gap for the leaf would be. We have birch barstools for our breakfast bar so it makes sense to keep with birch to match. So here’s my question:
What finishing process would you recommend for:
a. a kitchen table that will have food/drinks spilled on it
b. a top that will, no matter how hard I try to prevent, get beaten, battered and scratched by my toddlers
Our birch barstools are mostly painted black and antiqued but the seats are finished with a very dark color (not sure if it is stain, varnish, oil/varnish, etc. – don’t think it is shellac). I am hoping to match the colors somewhat. I’ve read that birch is ok for finishes but tends to blotch with stains. I’d like to add some protective coatings over the primary finish but not sure what the best options are.
Your invaluable advice would be greatly appreciated.
Replies
DB,
I would not use a ply for your kitchen table top....I'd make it solid wood, birch perhaps, with maybe breadboard ends if that fits the style. Believe me, that table will capture many of your kids events....ours is pine and you can see the imprint of there homework.....my wife would rather get rid of me than that table ...sigh!!
For a finish I'd use a varnish...maybe 6 coats of waterlux....very tough and easy to apply.
Just curious on why not use plywood. I figured it was very sturdy and at the same time I don't have a jointer, planer and/or biscuit jointer to edge join birch to make the top. I planned to edge band the ply with 4/4 birch using pocket hole joinery. Again, I'm a novice, so go easy on me, but I appreciate the insight. We have a beautiful dining room table that we use for more formal gatherings but this table will get the everyday abuse.
DB,
I'm suggesting solid wood because of the wear and tear you'll subject the table too. With spills, hot pans, deep scratches, dropped things that cause dents the veneer could easily lifted and and parts torn off....so it would look really crappy and create opportunity of additional destruction. The veneers on ply are very thin...
You could get some s4s hardwood and glue them up as a panel. If the surface is not perfectly smooth...and you want it smooth...there are places you can take the panel and have them run it through their large belt sander. You could also buy a plane and level the top yourself (remember: building family stuff is how we get additional tools). If you have a router...you could put on breadboard ends shich would help prevent any warping. Some skill is required to plane and add breadboards but a table top like this is a great place to start to develop those skills....the worst that can happen is the kids make fun of your so called tallents for the rest of their lives....lol.
On the other hand, it's also a great way to get the message across to your kids....on Father's day...think of your fathers hobbie = tools.....not work = necktie
I'm with BG on this one. If you don't have the tools to make a solid top, you can probably find a hardwood supplier or a cabinet shop that will do some of the milling for you. I've got a local hardwood supplier that will run wood through their tools (jointer, planer, large sander), and will go farther and create glueups based on my specifications. I've seen them make table tops out of 12/4 walnut, for instance.
Note that the softer the wood you chose, the more the kids are liable to dent it. I wouldn't choose pine for that reason.
John
That's a good idea. Although I'm already done with my kitchen table top, I'm sure there will be more projects coming up that are similar... I need to find a good wood supplier here in Central Indiana...
from my own experience: I grew up with a kitchen table that a friend of my father made. This had a maple top, finished with some sort of varnish or lacquer. I don't know which because I was about a year old at the time it was made. This table top served our family through the time that all us kids grew up and left home. To my knowledge it was never refinished. It had some of the best patina, gouges, scratches, and dents ever! I'd love to have it now.
This was a multi ply maple top, no fancy stuff at all. It didn't even have edge banding. The ply was sanded smooth and finish applied. The backs of the matching chairs were done the same way. I usually advocate for solid wood, but there's no denying the servicability of that old table. So, go with what what wood you can. I'd use a water based finish so you can refinish whenever you want. It dries quickly with little objectional odor.
I made our kitchen table 13 years ago, and it is still going strong with its original varish finish. I used a water based varnish, but if I did it over again, I would not (use water based, that is).
I also recommend using solid wood. Our table is a 5/4 thick combination of maple (Curly, BE and hard), sycamore and elm, between 1.5 and 3 inches by 40 inches. No bread boarding was needed, since all strips are oriented the same way. The skirt and legs were made from poplar, and painted in a gloss forest green for a "farm table" look.
The unusual combination of woods was due to obtaining them at an auction (a cabinet maker's shop had burned down, but his wood stacks outside were spared). I got 200 bf of the light hardwoods in a mix, all 6/4 stock, all for $20. Yep, $20 (in 1991). The mixture of woods gives a nice character to the table, making it less formal but interesting and "homey".
Good luck
Paul in TF
https://home.comcast.net/~paulchapko
Your plan will work fine, but as the other posters pointed out, anything made of lumberyard birch ply will not survive all that long. I think that those who are recommending the solid wood (also a perfectly good way to go) see this table as a potential heirloom. If that's what you want, then go with the soid wood. Call a local cabinetmaker to send the glued up blank through a wide belt sander and it will serve you for many years. Be sure to finish both sides of the panel with the same amount of finish, whatever it is ( I would brush a polyurethane on and not worry too much about finish quality.)
If you don't see keeping this cobbled together table for more than a few years, then go ahead with the birch ply. Another option would be a Finnish Birch ply, which has multiple layers of birch and is considerably tougher than regular birch ply. No need to edge band it, either. It might be harder to buy locally, again call your local cabinetmaker to see if they can buy you a sheet and cut it to size - it often comes as a 5 x 5 panel, which is an awkward size to do anything with.
The biggest advantage of the ply tops is that you can screw them directly to the base without worrying about expansion, which might help make this table sturdier.
Good Luck!
Paul Downs
Thanks for the reply. I'm not expecting this table to be an heirloom (my wife certainly is not). Otherwise I would probably scrap the legs and apron and do it the way I would choose. The intent is a quick fix that will last a few years until we get something else or I make something better. If I can get 3 to 5 years out of the new table top, I will be pleased. I do appreciate the suggestion not buying birch ply at the local home center - the stuff I saw at Lowes Saturday was thin as paper. I will call around and see what I can find.
I would finish it with an epoxy finish. It's the same thing that bar tops are finished with. It's really thick and can stand a lot of abuse. If you've got young kids things are going to get spilled and a normal finish won't hold up well for too long. hope this helps
andrew
I am also a newbie and have actually done both. I made a small table with folding legs for my daughter that was made of birch plywood and framed it (edge banded) with red oak. Then I sanded with an ROS to get the oak and ply flush. Be careful sanding the birch plywood as you will get through the top layer fairly quickly. Then I gave it 5 coats of MinWax wipe-on poly lightly sanding with 220 grit between applications. I also branded her name into the table with a burning tool before I polyed it. She loves it.
The following scenario is close to your situation. We had a coffee table and two end tables that had very sturdy bases made of wrought iron. The table tops were veneered MDF that had just worn through and looked ugly. So I recently(just finished them last week) replaced them with glued-up 3/4" maple that I bought at Home Depot (processed wood, not rough as I don't have a planer or jointer yet). The coffee table is made from 6 glued-up pieces that I sanded for hours and then routered the edges, stained, and applied 2 coats of poly. The tables came out really nice and I will attach a picture of the coffee table (quality of the picture is not great). The difference is if you are just looking for a table for the short-term that will take abuse you can go with the plywood (I recommend edge banding and routering though) but if you really want something special I would use glued-up hardwood. Besides looking really nice you will learn a lot more than going with the plywood. Now I can't wait to buy a planer and jointer and make furniture from rough wood...
Regards,
Buzzsaw
Buzzsaw, thanks for the reply and the picture - you did a nice job. Did you have to sand the top much once you edge glued the maple?
This has been an interesting set of replies. So far the recommendations have been poly, varnish, water-based finish, oil-based finish, and expoxy. Pretty much runs the gamut.
<<<This has been an interesting set of replies. So far the recommendations have been poly, varnish, water-based finish, oil-based finish, and epoxy. Pretty much runs the gamut. >>>
Well, it's a little like life itself -- how many times can you find a single, "right" way to do something?
If you're toting up here, I will cast my vote for a wipe-on oil finish. Sure, it is not the toughest finish, but it has one undeniable advantage. Once the little ones have beaten the table to smithereens, you can give it quick sanding by hand, and reapply a couple of coats of the wipe-on stuff. You can't do that with any of the film finishes.
About 15 years ago, I did a kitchen table with Seal-a-Cell (Armor finish, mfg. by General Finishes), and it managed to survive the rigors of two growing children. After about 7 years, I sanded and recoated, and I think the top looked about as good as the day it was sent out of my shop (albeit with a few added dings and nicks).
The product is available from any of the mail order suppliers -- Woodcraft, Rockler, etc.
Edited 6/23/2004 9:00 am ET by nikkiwood
DB,
The thing is if you buy 3/4" Birch plywood and the 3/4" red oak that is already processed (not rough) then the thicknesses are not exact. It is my recollection that the oak is a bit thicker. So when you glue up you want to try to get the joint between the birch ply and the red oak on top as flush as you can. This will minimize the amount of sanding needed. You want to start with a very coarse grit (60) then move to progressively finer grits and I finish up with 220 grit. The goal is to get all the joints flush and however long it takes you should spend the time. The oak gives you a really nice hardwood that you can router (I used a roundover bit) and it makes a really nice frame for the table top. I will copy a picture of the table that I made for my daughter in this fashion. As you can see I burned her name into it (MARIA) which she really liked. I bought some metal folding legs from a company called Midgett (no affiliation) and it really works out well. She can fold it up and put it under her bed when not in use. It gives her a table close to the ground (1' off the ground) where she can play board games and cards with friends. Sanding a flush edge between the ply and the oak is the only tricky part as you don't want to take off too much of the top layer of the plywood as I did in one section. But, even if you do, it adds character to the table and it sounds like you aren't looking for a showpiece and the table will take some abuse. The great benefit of using plywood, as someone already noted, is no concern about wood movement. Here is the table that I made for my daughter. Once again, I used 5 coats of MinWax wipe-on poly and sanded lightly with 220 grit between applications. It was my first time using it and it just wipes on with a rag and is very easy to apply. Good luck and keep us informed and post a picture when complete. Woodworking, for the limited time I've been doing it, has been most rewarding and the more projects you do the more confident you get. And there is always something new to learn (and new tools to buy). Enjoy...
Regards,
Buzzsaw
DB,
I re-read what you asked and you were asking about the maple top that was in the first picture, not the small table top that I sent that I made for my daughter. Yes, that required a lot of sanding but proper sanding to get all joints flush and the boards smooth is the key to the table. The more you sand the smoother the table gets and it really becomes an enjoyable process. You will literally spend hours to get the table top sanded properly. Once again, I typically use 4 grits (60, 100, 150, 220). I'm pretty sure this is the progression of grits I use. When you secure a glued-up table top liek the maple one that was in the first picture I sent you, you have to account for expansion prependicular to the grain. Since there was already a base I just made sure that the screws were put into holes in the base that were bigger than the screws themselves so that the screws can move with the table top. I'm not sure how your base is set up. Most tables usually have a slot cut in the apron into which you can insert a clip that rides along the slot and the other part of the clip has a hole for the screw to afix the tabletop to. Go to the Rockler site and they have them under fasteners. I will copy a picture of one...Obviously the hole side is affixed to the bottom of the table top with a screw and the other side rides in the slot which is typically a kerf (1/8") cut in the apron.
Regards,
Buzzsaw
Add another vote for epoxy... but as a sealer/primer, not the topcoat. You can use the plywood and use a penetrating epoxy formula to seal it up - the stuff penetrates deep in and helps hold the ply together. The end result will have some of the characteristics of plywood (flat, stable) and some of solid wood (durable). You topcoat with poly or varnish, or even just shellac. I did a test piece with shellac over Multiprime and it was absolutely waterproof, even against hot water.
I used CPES Multiprime from these guys:
http://www.smithandcompany.org/
West Systems also makes a similar product, but I haven't tried it.
Drawbacks: The penetrating formula uses a lot of nasty solvents to carry the resins into the wood. You definitely need a lot of ventilation, and/or a respirator with VOC cartridge. And it's not anywhere near as easy as wiping on poly. But the finished tabletop will last a long, long time. Of course, if you're planning to redo it in 3 years anyway, this is overkill."Everything should be made as simple as possible, but no simpler." A. Einstein
http://www.albionworks.net
Well, here she is... After a busy weekend of cutting, assembly and the 2 coats of sealer/stain (red mahogony) and 5 coats of wiping varnish. Still need to wait a month for it to cure and then to "rub out" the finish. I'm attaching files of my process. I first built a window seat with a recessed piano hinge and friction support hinges inside for additional seating and storage - the new table seats six and we only have four chairs - problem solved! I still need to paint it to match the trim. I built the whole seat from aspen. In that picture, you can see the old kitchen table prior to my efforts. The rest of pics walk through the process after I cut the solid birch and birch ply down to size for assembly. I used glue and pocket hole joinery to edge band the ply. I used the legs and part of the apron from the old kitchen table and made and extension for the apron sides. The finish I used was a tung oil/urethane blend from General Finishes. The first four coats were wiped on and the last three were brushed on with a sponge brush (with 300 grit sanding between coats). Thanks for everyone's input and advice on this project!
DB,
Congrats, it looks really nice....nice job on rounding the corners too..
The pictures look very nice.
But I saw something that you should change. In the picture which shows the clamps you don't have anything between the clamps and the wood ... and I can see from the bow in the clamps that they're tight. You're asking for dents in the wood by doing this. Trust me on this. Just use cutoffs that are about an 1/8th of an inch thick (hardwood).
John
Because of the use/abuse issue, I'd use laminate over an MDF core and band it with solid wood. There are many new "wood" appearing lams out now.
This wouldn't be "fine woodworking", however, it would be practical and fit your needs and give you new skills plus the opportunity to buy a laminate trimmer...
Man, I dig this forum. Not only do I get insightful replies but also great excuses to give to the LOML for new tools. This thread alone could justify several hand planes, a belt sander, laminate trimmer, probably a few more clamps, etc. Even as a newbie, I'm finding that I really enjoy woodworking as a hobby. The LOML is enjoying the results, although having dad working in the garage all weekend while she gets tormented by my kids is wearing her thin...
Buzzsaw, thanks for posting the pics and advice. I plan to edge band the 3/4" birch ply with 4/4 birch (3/8" roundover with the router) and then use some kind of dark stain to match our bar stools. If the ply version wears out quickly, by then I'll have gained more experience (and probably more tools) and will tackle a solid top with breadboard ends. I'll post pics when I get done.
Thanks again to all.
DB,
Please post pictures when you are done and don't hesitate to ask if you have questions along the way. Enjoy...Regards,
Buzzsaw
Hi I'm a woodworker with 3 small kids and can understand your predicament. We recently remodeled our house and we had maple wood flooring laid down. I used the extra flooring (3/4" thick by 3 1/2" wide by 6-8' long strips) to make a frame for a mirror I had laying around as well as stepstools and small tables for my kids. It was easy to do since they are designed to interlock together so gluing them up was no problem. If you go to a flooring store or supplier you might find some deals on extra flooring laying around. Just a little sanding is enough to even out any high spots. I used a water based poly for my floors and they have stood up to kids on bicycles and trikes. I like shellac for a lot of things but for abuse you will have to go poly or epoxy. The great thing of using flooring is that it easy to do with very few tools, plus your kids could help. Mine loved deciding the pattern in their desks and stools.
good luck
Another great suggestion. I'll have to give the hard wood flooring idea some thought... These 12 to 14 hour days at work aren't leaving me much time to do anything about it, unfortunately, much less see my wife and kids. At least I can get on this forum during the day every once in a while to keep my sanity. Nobody said being an accountant was going to be easy!
I don't have anything worthwhile to add to the discussion.
But geez, if you're working 14 hours a day during the middle of June, what must your life be like during the tax season??????
Fortunately I'm not a tax accountant. I do financial consulting work and go from project to project. Sometimes I have to work 70 hours a week on a project but the norm is probably 45 to 50. I couldn't handle the long hours if I were doing tax - too much repetition, whereas most projects are different in my line of work, which keeps it interesting.
Edited 6/28/2004 9:09 am ET by DB
Jay, I might actually have a good option for excess flooring - did you breadboard end your tables? If you have pics, that would rule too! I'm sure others would enjoy them.
I didn't breadboard ( which would have been nice ) because the tables weren't that wide. i just routed an ogee profile all around. Looks okay when i think to get out the camera I will try to post. By the way wood flooring makes great mirror frames because the grove is already cut in for you, just make miter cuts and stuff a little thin styrofoam in the groove before placing the glass and it will turn out A-0k. good luck
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