Replies

1. 
   Crunk | Jul 15, 2004 01:11am | #1

   Ian Kirby's The Complete Dovetail covers sliders made with hand tools.

2. 
   Jamie_Buxton | Jul 15, 2004 03:50am | #2

   You could build a jig for your router.   This isn't difficult.  

   Conceptually...  Lay the rail down horizontally on a bench or sawhorses.   Lay a board down on top of the rail, but not fastened to it.   Fasten a vertical board to the end of this second board.   Put a hole in it for the dovetail router bit to stick through.   Mount the router to it.   Now drag this whole apparatus along the end of the rail, cutting one side of the sliding tail.  Flip the rail over and repeat.   Do the other end of the rail in the same way.  Done.

   In practice, you'll need a way to adjust the position of the router to get exactly the width of tail which you want.

3. 
   joinerswork | Jul 15, 2004 04:11am | #3

   Doug,

   Couple of things:

   1)  "Trundle" beds are short post beds, designed to "trundle" or roll underneath a taller bed frame. 

   2) The traditional approach to attaching the canopy frame to a tall post bed is to  let the canopy frame extend over the tops of the posts, flush with or slightly overhanging the post tops.  The frame is held in place with either  1/4" dia. steel pins, extending from the centers of the post tops, that pierce the frame members; or by means of the stem of a finial, at each post top, which extends through the frame members and continues into the post top for two inches or so.  For this means of attachment, the canopy frame would be 1 1/2 - 2"wideX about 1" thick, and half lapped at each corner. 

   Traditionally, an arched canopy would be sawn out of a wide board ( 1 1/2 -2" thick), and hinged in the center of the arch (right at the top).  This reduces the need for super-wide stock, lessens the weakening effect of short grain, and makes storage and moving of the frame easier.  No reason why laminating the canopy arches won't work, they'll be stronger, for sure.

   3) If you want a router-cut dovetail on the end of a long piece, you could make up an "L" shaped bracket to clamp at the end of the piece to be cut.  With your stock to be cut held (horizontally) in a vice, clamp the jig to the stock, flush and square with the end, to provide a broad, flat surface to run the router on.  Set the router's fence to regulate the depth of cut when run against the side of the stock.  Run one side, flip the stock in the jig, and run again.  You could use something similar to rout the slot in the mating piece. ( Actually, I'd rout the slots first, then cut the tails to fit, I think it's easier that way.)

   Regards,

   Ray
    

1. 
   DougF | Jul 15, 2004 04:02pm | #5

   All,

   Thanks for your comments and suggestions. 

   Ray, one point regarding the trundle bed: its origins trace back to the medieval period, most notably England, and most were canopied beds.  The short posted or side boards were a more recent design.

   The effect of the post and rail detail that I am trying to achieve is have the rails intersect the posts using sliding dovetail joinery.  Once joined, the post will be capped with something akin to a finial.   I think the overall affect will be pleasing to the eye and structurally sound since I plan fairly deep slots and the post will have plenty of meat surrounding joint.

   Steam-bending and laminating the rails is as much for appearance as it is strength.  I don't like the appearance of a single board cut as an arch unless it is painted.  This will be natural maple finished to match her other furniture that I have build.  The arch theme will be carried out with the head and foot boards.  I plan to thin-kerf rip the boards , maintaining the original relationship of each piece, to hopefully achieve a naturally arched rail with a seamless appearance.

   More work - yes, but with each project I like to incorporate something new in my learning curve. The end post/rail tapered sliding dovetail construction and the laminated steam-bent rails are my challenges this time.  Thankfully, I do not have to bill out the time this will take for me to fumble my way through this.

   Regarding the end-routing the long boards - I am going to investigate hand tooling these although hand tools are definitely my weak spot.  But I am not comfortable handling a router in and position other than on the vertical and hand tools may be the best and safest approach.

   Doug

1. 
   joinerswork | Jul 16, 2004 06:24am | #10

   Doug,

   Are you planning on casters or wheels on your bed?  A trundle bed can have tall posts, (no-one asked ME for permission, I know!) just that the usual reason I've read for a trundle bed was so it could be pushed out of sight, often under a tall post bed, when not actually in use.  ("Trundle" derives from Old French word for circle or disc, i.e., wheel.)  Good luck with your project, I'm turning bedposts myself.

   Best regards,

   Ray 

1. 
   DougF | Jul 16, 2004 03:59pm | #11

   Ray,

   I'm planning on wooden wheels but this is still an open design question.  The size of the trundle bed mattress should provide sufficient space to incorporate the wheel housing mounted on the outside of the trundle frame.  A false front on the trundle frame will cover the ends so the wheel housing will not be visible.

   Good luck with your turnings.

   Doug

4. 
   robkelly | Jul 15, 2004 04:32am | #4

   There are lots of ways to do it with jigs as some mentioned above. If you have not done long sliding dovetails before, be aware that the wood will start to swell as soon as the glue hits it, converting a really nice dry fitted slider into a piece of wood which   @%$#& will not go into the &*$#@ slot no matter how much you &%$#*@ beat on it. The answer is to taper the female part of the dovetail.

5. 
   JohnWW | Jul 15, 2004 07:18pm | #6

   Doug,

   Your design, while it will work, is going to be quite difficult to build and harder to set up and later disassemble if the bed has to be moved in the future, which will happen.  With luck your bed will still be around two hundred years from now and you need to plan for that.  Tall beds are almost always built with bed bolts, paired with simple mortise and tenons, joining both the side and end rails to the posts to make them practical to move.    

   Being that there is no appreciable load or stress on the canopy framing, the simple pin through the corner described in the earlier posting will be perfectly adequate and simple to take apart. 

   Trying to get eight nicely fitting sliding dovetails on 6 to 7 foot long posts and the equally long canopy rails will be difficult and a mistake could force you to start all over with a new bed post or laminated arch which would be time consuming and frustrating.  Whenever possible, try to avoid fussy joinery late in the production of a complex component, so that a mistake doesn't waste a all of the previous work put into the part.  

   Over time, there is a good chance that shrinkage and warpage will cause even properly fitted dovetails to seize in their slots which will make taking the bed apart at some future date difficult without risking damage the relatively frail dovetails. 

   Always choose the simplest joint that will do the job, it is a sign of sophisticated design.

   John W.  

     

   
   

   ---

   Edited 7/15/2004 12:39 pm ET by JohnW

1. 
   DougF | Jul 15, 2004 08:41pm | #7

   John,

   I guess I'm debating changing because I like the symmetry of the design as well as the challenge.  All other components of the bed use  tradition construction such as bed bolts and M/T.   The corner posts however, are designed in two parts so the tapered portion of the posts and the canopy could be eliminate at a later time.  The untapered portion of the bed posts will be beveled to provide a continuous flow when it joins the tapered portion.     

   Since the posts are two-piece, it was my design intent to use the dovetail joinery to actually add stability to the four rails and partial posts.  The other consideration was that the posts are not intended to resemble traditional pencil posts but have less taper at the top.  

   So, let me throw out this idea: Miter the rail ends secured by corner blocks and screwed from the backsides of the block.  Placement on the top of the post would correspond with the edge-plane of the two tapers and the mitered rail corner would be chamfered to match the post.  This should provide the continuity of the design.  The assembly then rests on top secured by a 1/2" lag bolt

   I think I've let myself be talked into a change but I can't help but wonder if it is because it is easier or because it is better. 

   My thanks to those who shared their opinions and suggestions.  This is what makes this forum so valuable.

   Doug

1. 
   JohnWW | Jul 16, 2004 12:26am | #8

   Doug,

   Your alternative design sounds like a good one, I had considered suggesting the same idea as another way of doing the top but I couldn't figure out how to describe its construction without filling up half a page with the details.

   Good luck with the bed, it sounds like a great project.

   John W.

1. 
   DougF | Jul 16, 2004 01:02am | #9

   Thanks John.  I'll post pictures when it is finished in a few months.  I've got a few more cups of coffee to down while contempalting the design as well as laying up the boards.  I hope it turns out half as well as looks in my head.

   Doug

6. 
   Routerman | Jul 16, 2004 04:06pm | #12

   Tutorial at DW link.

1. 
   DougF | Jul 16, 2004 04:24pm | #13

   Ray,

   Thanks for the reference. 

7. 
   hatchet | Jul 18, 2004 07:04am | #14

   I replaced a broken canopy rail on my granddaughter's bed.  The rail was short enough (half of it) that I cut the dovetail on the cabinet saw.  On a long rail I would use a hand held router with a dovetail bit.  Clamp a scrap of wood on each side of the rail for extra support of the router.

   Hatchet

8. 
   kesac | Jul 19, 2004 01:44am | #15

   Sliding dovetail made to fit a tapered post on both ends will take a great deal of care and effort.  It might be one of those things, that if you have to ask, you shouldn't attempt it.

   The problem with that advice is, often when you have the desire and the aptitude, and some imagination, you can do anything

   If you want to do it, you can.  It will be difficult.

   Patrick Spielman, shows lots of tricks with a router, and a combination of some of those will get you there.  I would try it on scraps first.

   I would try it on scrap, over and over again.  Some of the beauty of a nice piece, is knowing the difficulty that you overcame