Hi Folks, Think I did a no no today. Was cutting dados using a stacked dado set and need a stopped dado. Was feeling a little lazy (a sure sign of trouble) and didn’t want to set up the router table for an undersized piece of half inch birch ply ( and I even own the Freud bits for that exact cut) Sooooo…I went ahead and did the same technique that I would of used on the router table of very carefully lowering the ply onto the dado set after marking the start and stop positions. All went well but it just didn’t feel right which usually stops me from doing something like that. Not this time.
Anyway, my question to you is, was this dumb? I don’t remember reading or seeing it this done this way. Maybe I just missed it along the way.
Like I said, it worked fine and with a little chisel work I had a perfect stopped dado.
I’m not seeing much potential for kickback here but please let me know if this is an acceptable technique.
Thanks, Brian
Replies
Brian, I have made several stopped dados using the table saw. Yes, it made me nervous, but not to an unhealthy degree. I can't guarantee it was a good idea, but with proper precautions and within certain parameters, it seems OK to me.
The dados I made were fairly shallow, and not very wide. Made very deliberately, and only when I was alert and in "good fettle," with pieces of stock that did not require me to have my hands close to the blade. Wish I could give more detail, but memory is vague at this point.
It'll be interesting to see what others have to say!
Thanks Jamie, Well I changed my mind AGAIN! Going to be ordering the Powermatic PM2000 on Thursday. Saw it up close the other day and fell in love. Grabbed a reliable straightedge off the rack at the tool dealer and checked the HUGE table surface. About as dead flat as it gets. The stock miter gauge is great too. DC shroud, arbor lock. Really great machine. Wanna buy a Craftsman?
Brian
This is an "accepted" (but I'm not sure about "acceptable") technique. It always makes me nervous tho'.
As an alternative, I usually set the blade height, and then lower the blade, carefully counting the revolutions of the crank. Then I position the piece, hold it firmly with a pushboard, turn the saw on and crank the blade back up to it's original position. Then, I push the piece through until I hit a the stop mark on the far end of the dado.
It's a bit more trouble, but it doesn't make me quite as nervous.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
One of the reasons I use my RAS to cut dados like this.Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
"reasons I use my RAS to cut dados like this."
Me too, but not if they are stopped on both ends. I'm not sure I'd wanna lower the spinning blade on the RAS into the work and then push back to the rear stop. Never tried it tho'. I guess it would be fine if the piece were clamped to the table. Hmm. Maybe I will give it a shot.
Now if the dado is only stopped on one end, then the RAS is a breeze.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Mike, I think your technique would make me more nervous than simply leaving the blade up. Any time I have to hold a board with one hand, bend my body and reach for the controls makes me uncomfortable. Also, in some work, the dado needs to be fairly tightly controlled depth-wise. On my old saw, counting revolutions wouldn't get me there.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
"Mike, I think your technique would make me more nervous than simply leaving the blade up."
It definitely holds your attention, either way!
But with the "raise the blade" method, you can ease the blade into the wood very gradually, reducing the chance of kickback, and your hands are both well away from the blade. I advise the use of a feather board, or two, as well when doing this, and I use a push board (a piece of ply about a foot long with a "hook" on the trailing edge so you can hold the piece down in the front) rather than a push stick. My saw ain't the best, but returning the crank to the same spot usually gets me close enough -- *almost* as accurate as the original setting -- which ain't sayin' much. ;-)
Anyway, as another poster said, this is a good time to use the RAS. Also, I'm surprised at the number and sternness of the warnings against doing this on the TS -- most from folks whose advice I'd listen to before I listened to mine -- but I can swear I've seen it done in any number of videos, WW-ing shows, etc., with the start and stop lines marked on the fence and the piece.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
I will be doing all of my stopped dados on the router table from here on. NO exceptions. Just not worth it to save a small amount of time only to spend a large amount of time in the E.R.
Thanks for the reply.
Stay safe, Brian
I think its about comfort too. If you just don't feel comfortable doing something. Just find a different way to do it. I remember when I started to make raised panel doors on the shaper. The first time I ran the raised panel cutter I nearly pooped my paints- That cutter sounds like a DC-10 taking off. It still bothers me, but I guess thats what keeps me on my toes
-Lou C
"Comfort" is definately something that contributes to safety. I've seen timid operators convert a relatively safe operation into a bad situation, solely due to their lack of comfort. For example, being so afraid of an operation that you don't hold the piece firmly can quickly lead to an airborn chunk of wood.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
It is something that is often done but has considerable risk.If the ply had moved away from the fence at the back of the blade (especially on your new saw) there is a good chance you would have a voice a couple of octaves higher and your prospect of reproduction ruined
Thanks for the reply. I am a convert. Never...EVER...again.
Brian
Not a good plan.
The chance of kick back is very high, dado blades have a lot of traction, and the wood is unstable while you are lowering it, increasing the chance of the blades grabbing. Third problem is that you have your fingers under the board and probably in front of the blades as you lower the wood onto the table, if the wood gets pulled back and pivots around your fingers are into the blades.
A few years back somebody here on Knots told a story about a friend who did exactly this and lost several fingers.
John White
Done deal. Never again. Thanks John. Like I said in my reply to your other reply, your word is more then good enough for.
Thank You,
Brian
PS, Going to post a thought under General discussion. Would appreciate it if you would take a look.
from the Table Saw Book - Kelly Mehler
"Dropping in work on a wide dado set is one of the more dangerous kickback situations and should be avoided at all costs"
You are extremely lucky. This is one of the most dangerous things you can do (other then watching a woodworker begin to chase a large piece of plywood across a running tablesaw after they started the cut and noticed they forgot to lock the fence down and it began to move)
There is a method of setting up jigs to make this operation safe which requires Heavy Duty Clamps (no cheap harbor freight or small bessey clamps here) and backer boards. I don't feel I could adequately describe the method without being their to emphasize the important parts. I don't know of any article that I could cite that would show you exactly how to do this but perhaps someone else knows of one.
Variations of the words used in your post have appeared in after accident reports for the same operation that you just did please don't add your name to the list.
Edited 2/20/2008 8:40 am ET by RonK
Thanks Ron, Never again, I swear brother. Going to post a reply to all in General discussion. Plz read.
Thx again, Brian
I use to use a dado blade on my tablesaw all the time. I never felt safe using it and never had the guts to try your trick. Now I use a router with this jig called The Router Wizard http://www.eaglejigs.com . Works awesome and I get much cleaner dadoes to boot. I haven't used my dado blade since and never plan to again. Something about a 3/4" blade spinning like crazy makes my stomach uneasy. I like my fingers too much.
Edited 2/20/2008 9:45 am ET by mvflaim
Mike,
What dado set do you have? I might be interested in rescuing it from the scrap metal pile.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Hi Bob,
I have a 8" Freud dado set but I'd still like to hold on to it because you never never know when I might actually need it. Sometimes I use the two outer blades to run grooves for the bottom of my drawers sides but I rarely use the inner blades to create a wide dado. That router jig is a no-brainer for me for that application.
There's no way I would do that stopped dado on the tablesaw trick. One bad move and the board kicks back and your hand gets thrown into the blade. I've experienced kickback and it is no fun at all. Luckily I've never been injured since I stand at the left hand side of the machine and my work piece missiles through my shop and not into me. Twenty years of woodworking and I still get nervous over a tablesaw. I've been waiting patiently for the SawStop contractor saw to come onto the market. As soon as it's available they got a sale. I'd buy the cabinet saw but dread bringing it down my basements steps. It's the same reason I haven't picked up an 8" jointer either.
thanks for the offer though, mike
Edited 2/20/2008 11:15 am ET by mvflaim
Well I can't say I agree with all you said. Certainly know what you mean though. Something about those chippers etc but the dado set is a great tool used correctly and a tool I use often. Also a tool I've learned a great deal about in the last few days from you good folks.
I think the tool that scared the BeJesus out of me and one I have never used since is a finger joint bit. Man Oh Man. If you have ever used one you may know what I mean. Don't know if I was using it improperly but the sound and feel of that thing going through a piece of Pine ( if I remember correctly) was close to terrifying. Made one pass and put it away never to be used by this woodworker again.
Stay safe, Brian
I've never had the pleasure of using a finger joint router bit but I'm sure it's a whole lotta fun! One tool that gave me the willies but is really affective and does a good job is an angle grinder with a chainsaw blade attachment to use as a carving tool. I used one a few years ago when I made seats for Windsor chairs. Kept both hands on the tool and had total concentration. You slip with that thing and you'll have a 1/4" gouge in your body.
mike
Yikes!
I'd be nervous... that board could ride on those teeth... that's not good.
This is exactly what a plunge router is for... believe me, you'll be a lot happier!
Tom's Workbench
http://tomsworkbench.com
I'm with you. Never again.
Thanks, Brian
Stopped dados are really a bad idea, I saw a guy I worked with have a kickback on one and turn the tip of his thumb into hamburger that was over 20 years ago and I can still picture it in my mind. There are a lot of potential problems with this technique, dados have a lot of cutters so if the board gets a little squierrly in any way it is going to want to grab and spit it out also when doing the plunge part of the cut it is real easy to have your hand above the dado.
Tom
Ya, it really made me nervous which usually will stop me, but because it was not a through cut I thought it fairly safe (fairly safe? K, now if that's not a dumb statement.....). Anyway I'm hearing it's actually an acceptable technique from Folks I respect and the opposite, also from well experienced folk. I guess it just comes down to if it doesn't feel right to ME then don't do it.
Thanks for the reply.
Brian
Brian,
That's good thinking if it doesn't feel right don't do it. In my opinion having the dado buried in the work is part of what makes stoped dado's so dangerous there is just that much more cutter area to catch. The other problem is that the hand you are pushing the front of the board down with is either real close to the blade or over it and if the saw kicks back the potential for disaster is higher than I like. The other danger comes when you try to lift the board off at the ned of the cut this is another time that kick back can happen it is best to stop the saw before removing the piece.
There are some things you can do to minimize the risk, the most common one is to use a stop block on the saw fence so that when you plunge the piece into the blade it has something to keep it from kicking back.
Tom
Thanks for the reply Tom. I think the best way to minimize the risk in this situation is to avoid it all together. See John White' reply. That's more then good enough for me.
Thx my friend.
Brian
Brian ,
The size of the work piece and length of the dado is an important part of this equation .
I think the method of plunge cutting is what we are talking about , with or without a dado blade . We have probably seen people making a plunge cut with a regular blade mostly ?
I make a plunge when I do a bread board cutout in a 3" top rail for kitchen base . I leave the board much longer then it will end up , the natural tendency is to place your hand in front of the work piece . The initial draw or pull momentum goes to you quickly . So as the fingers are hanging over the end they come back with the piece to the blade,
Depending on the size of the work piece some plunge cuts can be made safer but this is best to avoid except when you must and make it safe even if you crank it up like Mike said , each application is different .
A panel router works the best I have seen , you can see the stop lines . A router with a edge guide works fine , the router cut is often cleaner then the dado .
regards dusty
Thanks Dusty, Bottom line for me was John White' reply. I will be sticking to the router table.
Thx again, Brian
I'm sorry, but just because this operation does or does not feel safe to you, does not actually make it safe or not. This is a proven way to leave fingers behind in the saw dust. As a shop manager, EMT, accident investigator, and teacher, trust the people who say this is a dangerous way to create a dado.John White
Thanks John. Your word is good enough for me. I'm sticking to the router table on this one.
Thanks again,
Brian
I agree w/ John. And i would add if it doesn't feel safe find another way. No dirsrespect but common sense should kick in. If you think it could be unsafe it probably is. i would rather tke the time to route it then take a ride to the hospital only to return with less fingers. Ten minutes or a life time with less fingers.
Bri...... Time spent setting up a router table is much better spent than sitting in an ER waiting to get put back together, IMHO
James
Agreed. I've been assured it is an acceptable technique done, as always with all techniques, carefully with full thought. Just didn't feel completley right..ya know? Enough reason to stick with the router table. Something about all those chippers etc......Good to be a bit nervous anyway I think.
Thx for the reply. Brian
Your method does not seem outragously dangerous, concidering the method I was taught to use. I worked in a cabinet shop at a government agency for 1.5 years and this is the methods they expected us to use:
To crosscut a 1"x12" up to 8' long in half we set the table saw fence at 4'. We would then hold the 11.5" side against the fence and cut the board in half.
If we needed to dado the 1x12 , we would do the same thing as above holding the 11.5" side against the fence. For stopped dados we would lower the board on the blade like you did.
I felt the most dangerous method they had us do was scoring the dado. This was done by holding the board on the outfeed side of the blade and drawing the board toward you while holding it off the table just enough to score it. When you had scored it, you pushed the board through in the usual direction to complete the dado.
I was not aware of anyone at the shop hurting themself, but I would never use these methods again, as I am older and wiser. Now I would use a router as others have described.
Agreed. I will be using the router for stopped dados regardless of how acceptable a technique it is. It just makes me uncomfortable and that' enough right?
Brian
I guess jump never heard about an employees right to refuse to to work they believed was unsafe. Perhaps this wasn't possible then. x-cutting an 8' 1x12 on a ts is possible undoubtedly, but for the last twenty years has been much more safely done with a RAS or a chop saw.But there was no date associated with jumps comments, who knows. . I remember cutting 4/4, 8/4 etc on a 30" swinging beam saw......like a RAS only suspended from the ceiling of the shop....Methinks that set up is totally illegal now or at least hope so. It was wicked.Oh ya, the fella that paid me to do it, well he established a wwing museum in ontario near Kingston. More power to him.Eric
in Calgary
I don't see how this is any more dangerous than cutting an open ended dado, as long as you don't drop the wood too fast. If the wood is 3/4" thick and the dado is only 3/8" deep, and you make sure not to go past the blade, you can't possible touch the blade. I think it was the smart way to go.
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Cheap Tools at MyToolbox.net
See some of my work at AWorkOfWood.com
Thanks Ted. I think it's something about all those chippers etc that made me a bit nervous. Just wanted to check with all you folks with more experience. Thanks again. Brian
Hello again, Just checked your site. I'm betting you stay employed quite regularly. Beautiful work. Brian
Thanks Bri, and yes I do keep busy. I'm still doing a lot of remodeling work but the site is only showing the woodworking stuff. Also, I'm making some changes to the site, so it will look a little different. I'm setting up a content management system (CMS) so I don't have to create new pages every time I add finished projects. Also allows me to do some neat trick with the photos.
As for the topic of safety in cutting, what used to bother me (and still does to an extent) is knowing my skin is so close to the blade. Even though I know it is physically impossible for the blade to reach me, just knowing it's only 3/8" away makes me nervous. But I guess that's what keeps me paying attention! :D--------------------------------------------------------
Cheap Tools at MyToolbox.netSee some of my work at AWorkOfWood.com
I was just reading through the posts here and noticed nobody had mentioned the curve of a saw blade when it comes to the stopped ends. I mentioned how I've lowered wood onto the spinning blade as I've done it for some operations in the past. But for a stopped dado, isn't that too much curve? I find even the rounded end of the cut left by the router bit requires a bit of fiddling, such as more back-cutting the adjoining piece more than I care to, or chissling the end of the dado square. But how would one deal with the ends of a stopped dado make from a circular saw blade? Maybe, finish it off with the router? :D--------------------------------------------------------
Cheap Tools at MyToolbox.netSee some of my work at AWorkOfWood.com
"Maybe, finish it off with the router?"
Or the old fashioned (and probably quicker) way -- use a mortise chisel to "correct" the last couple of inches.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Mike & Ted,
Do it with the router in the first place? Yup for me anyway and square everything off with a chisel. Much safer approach in my opinion.
Life is good.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
"Router in the first place" is usually the best option, but that can get problematic when the width of the dado/groove is not the exact width of a router bit. That situation may require multiple router passes, with some pretty finicky fence work. Also, I have needed 1/4" dados over 2" deep -- couldn't do that on my router -- at least not with the bits I have. (For the life of me, I can't remember why the heck I would ever need to do this, but I remember clearly doing it. Must be getting old.)
IMHO, setting up properly with appropriate anti-kickback protection and stops, and raising the blade into the work instead of lowering the work onto the spinning blade, can make this as safe as pretty much any operation on a TS. This, of course, requires a good understanding of the dynamics of the operation involved, and an understanding of where problems might arise and how to avoid injury if that happens.
As I pointed out in a prior post however, some (whose words hold far more weight than mine) have advised against it. I would recommend anyone who is thinking about making stopped dados on a TS heed the words of those wiser than I.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Ted ,
I learned to shape the part like the dado , easier than chiseling it square .
Band saw sand or shape it to fit .
dusty , maker of designer kindling
So then we all agree... (right, like that will ever happen :p )
Router is the first option.
Table saw if there is any special reason
If the table saw is used, cut the adjoining piece to fit.
Always practice safety first! :D
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Cheap Tools at MyToolbox.netSee some of my work at AWorkOfWood.com
Edited 2/27/2008 7:27 pm by Ted W.
I just clean it up with a chisel and hammer, or grab my hand router and notch out that last part more or less.
Also, it helps that I work with a 6" dado. Never found any need for an 8". You get more power and a tighter radius.
Edited 2/28/2008 2:46 pm ET by blewcrowe
So... you never cut a 3-1/2" deep dado in the edge of a 2x6? You don't know what you're missin'!
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Cheap Tools at MyToolbox.netSee some of my work at AWorkOfWood.com
Edited 3/1/2008 10:45 pm by Ted W.
No sir, I haven't. With the type of project I do, I can get by with a 6" set. I HAVE an 8" set but never use it.
I'm looking for an 8" dado set, wanna sell yours?
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Mister Bob, it's a Forrest set and probably needs sharpening. I apologize if I gave the impression it was new (I used to use it before I got the 6"). I'll run to the shop and take a look at it. If you're interested in such a set, I'd make you a very good price. Let me take a look and get back to you later today.
I'm all ears!
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Okay, this is a let down. I went out to the shop, couldn't find it, then it dawned on me, I gave away to a friend about a year ago. Sorry to get your hopes up.
Drat! Oh well, things happen.
If ya get the urge to give away any woodworking tools, especially planes that have Marcou, Lee Valley or Lei Neilsen on 'em, I raise my hand!
:-)
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 3/3/2008 10:01 am ET by KiddervilleAcres
Bob, if you sell your Stanley No 3 Type 3 you can buy a really nice dado set along with a few Lie-Neilsen planes.
Hi Mike,
My ears just got a LOT BIGGER! If only I could find a buyer.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
throw it on ebay.. you'll get good money for it.
<g> Will do. But while I've collected about a dozen LNs over the years, I'm still learning their nuances to this day. Hey, I'm a slow learner. Later.
If you feel something might be unsafe have your wife preform the operation, and that way you can stand aside and evaluate the safety of the cut. If it looks safe with her doing it-proceed.
There ya go.....Maybe that's why I'm not married. The ones I've met are just too smart for me. ;)
Brian
You should get married or at least get a girlfriend who isn't too bright and use her for this test. I have all my fingers, but my wife is missing three, and it hasn't interfered with her cooking or housekeeping or sex. Trust me on this one, you'll never get better advise on this site.
Think I'll just stay away from that one my friend! ;)
Brian
LOL
There is a high degree of danger, but the determining factors for me would be the size of the part, If under 16" wide, then clamp a stop to the front edge of the table so the the piece is supported and can not kick back. The length of piece is a determining factor also. If part is longer that the table I would not. A router is the simpler setup, move the machine not the part. I healthy fear is good, and questioning setup is part of a good cabinetmakers conscience. If the part enables a stop be used I would not be against doing this.
BRI
I had a serious accident 25 years ago dropping a piece onto a blade as you are describing. A day does not go by that I don't regret my choice, please use the router!
I've done a lot of stopped dados with a dado blade in the tablesaw. It does take a bit of setup to get the operation to work safely, and that time is well worth spending.
As mentioned by another poster, I start the cut with the blade below the saw's surface, and I clamp stop blocks to the fence that limit the travel of the piece both fore and aft.
So, starting with the workpiece resting against the "fore" block on the fence, I turn on the saw and slowly raise it into the work - all the while holding the piece down with a push stick. When the blade reaches the proper height, I push the piece forward (with the pushstick) until it reaches the "aft" block. Then I shut the saw off.
I consider this a pretty safe operation. The blade is concealed at all times by the workpiece, and I'm not doing an uncontrolled "drop" of anything onto the spinning blade. The "fore" block, especially, prevents the piece from moving forward when the blade contacts the work.
That said, the cut produced is not always exactly ideal. As the blade comes to a stop it does wobble a bit, and that enlarges the width of the dado slightly. Not a major problem if it's going to be covered, but it might be a problem with an exposed joint.
Zolton* Some people say I have a problem because I drink hydraulic brake fluid. But I can stop any time I want.
Just wondering...with the blade completely concealed in the wood as you say, how do you know when the blade is at the appropriate height for the depth of the dado?
Harry,
You crank the blade up to where it should be (saw off, of course) for the depth of cut, then crank it back down and count the number of times you turn the handle. And then note where you need to crank it back up to in order to duplicate the setting. "Four full turns and leave the handle at 3:00." It's reasonably accurate..
Zolton
* Some people say I have a problem because I drink hydraulic brake fluid. But I can stop any time I want.
Okay, that makes sense, thanks.
Thanks for the reply. I have been thouroughly convinced by many. Router table always.
Thanks again,
brian
Dear BriMcG, I prefer the router, I never thought about a stacked dado set . I say if your okay with the results, And theres no danger with kickback. Then chisel away! Happy woodworking, pappadon.
Hi Pappadon, With the help of everyone here, I think I have learned a lesson. I will be doing all stopped dados on the router table. Just not worth the risk.
Thanks,
Brian
Funny that you should ask. I am sitting here in pain tonight with partial loss to my left thumb from an accident in my shop yesterday. I had my dado blade set up for a 1/4" width and thankfully only a 1/4" height. I was dropping a 2" x 2" block of maple on top of the blade and it kicked backed and my hand went down into the blade. I too was lazy. I went to set up the router table to do this and found that I did not have a 1/4" bit available. So I took a shortcut. After I receive the ER bill, it will probably have been cheaper to buy the table that I was trying to duplicate. LESSON - Always use the right tool for the right job!
Glad it wasn't worse, the pain will subside, I hope the memory remains.
Take care.
Thanks for the reminder Barry. I for one was born with a built in "forgetter" that gets me in trouble. Hearing your story wakes me up. It will be the router table for that kind of operation from here in.
Brian
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