My expensive kitchen refrigerator from Sears went out yesterday after 16 years. Technician opened it up and said “I’m surprised your compressor lasted this long.” Seems it was a cheap GE design that didn’t work. In the meantime the 20 year old, much cheaper, off brand beer fridge is still going strong.
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I know something about buying some stuff and I really do use and appreciate Internet reviews but I wondered if anyone else had any advice or rules of thumb on buying new or used equipment, tools etc. where you really don’t know much about them.
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Thanks,
Tom<!—-> <!—->
Replies
For a household appliance, my first research step to selecting a particular brand would be to call a few repair places and ask them what are the brands they see the most, especially machines that aren't very old.
Another thing you can do is Google for BrandX ToolName complaints. For example, "Whirlpool refrigerator complaints." You'll find complaints for any brands, but some waaaayyyyyy more than others.
For tools, ask here and at Breaktime. The tools that survive service in a contractor's hands are going to be sturdy tools. In the spirit of checking with the repair guys, if there's a tool-repair shop in your neck of the woods, call them. We have a small outfit called The Electric Shop where all the contractors take their dead tools to be fixed. He knows the weaknesses of the smaller tools.
tomwaiz
Study electricity and electronics, study general physics books, study bearing types and applications, learn welding ( proper joint construction/design ) look at the inexpensive stuff and compare them to the ones that are way out of your price range. Look at what stuff your heros of the craft are using.
Used stuff : physically spend time with the object you want to buy. Take off the belts. Grab the shafts and very firmly lift up and down perpendicular to the axis of the shafts. Turn the shafts and feel for rumbling. Put the hard plastic end of a screw driver in your ear and the metal tip on the machine as close to a bearing etc as possible and listen. No I am not kidding = inexpensive stethoscope. Or just buy an inexpensive automotive stethoscope.
>Don't really know much about them<
Take a bunch of time and learn all about "them". It is part of the fun; or can be if you come at it from that view.
Work on and repair old machines that don't cost you much. Takes tools and time but teaches allot even if the machine goes to the scrap afterward.
Get straight edges and dial indicators to measure tables and runout or develop an eye that notices these things EVEN ON BRAND NEW MACHINES. I could tell you stories ! ! !
Turn on your intuition sensors. You are going to need them.
Learn to meditate.
Allows you to learn to slow down and focus on what is in front of you rather than thinking way down the road about how this unbelievably inexpensive table saw with almost no use on it is going to help you make that house full of furniture in time to go on vacation next year. If you can only get it home and your buddy is blowing his horn out in the street in the pickup that he borrowed from his uncle and he is in a big hurry so better hurry up and buy it.
Only to discover once you get it home why the guy sold it so cheep; cause it is unusable and now you gotta unload it for cheep.
Make friends with a "gear head". Your profile doesn't say where you are. Maybe if you put up your location there may be one of us that you can ply with beer or other food items to take a look at your prey.
Of coarse I was born knowing all this stuff so it is effortless for me.
Yah right.
PS: as far as the Sears fridge goes Queenmasteroftheuniverseandbabybunnytrainer and my self looked solely at price and mostly at door and drawer layout imagining what we wanted to put in it and the fact that we go to the freezer way less so it could be on the bottom rather than on top. We are very pleased with our purchase as far as using it. Knock on wood. The compressor etc we put to "well we aren't buying the cheapest so it should be OK" Ergonomics was what we were after. Yes read consumer reviews but there isn't going to be much that is head and shoulders better than another in the same price range in most stuff. Companies are just too competitive. so boils down to does it fit and can I/we afford it ?
I must say he makes some of the strangest noises ! I have never heard a fridge come up with ! And Queenmasteroftheuniverseandbabybunnytrainer is constantly going over and shifting a grate in the freezer to stop it from making a buzzing sound so so much for freezer on the bottom/fridge on top easier on the back.
Basically you can't win. I say simplify, simplify. In short, live on a beach and eat fruit off the trees and sell some pretty drift wood on the board walk and call it woodworking. Just take it easy. You know. Listen to some Jimmy Buffet on a dime store radio and call it paradise.
: )
Any thing else is just allot of work ya know ?
I hope this helps.
roc
Give me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Edited 7/31/2009 10:38 pm by roc
Edited 7/31/2009 10:40 pm by roc
Edited 7/31/2009 10:51 pm by roc
roc,
You must keep Queenmasteroftheuniverseandbabybunnytrainer on your clipboard cuz everytime I try typing Queenmasteroftheuniverseandbabybunnytrainer my WingDings stop working.
Do you or Queenmasteroftheuniverseandbabybunnytrainer know how to fix my WingDings?
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
>WingDings stop working<Ha, ha, ha, aaahhhh, Ha, ha, ha, harocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Edited 7/31/2009 11:17 pm by roc
tom,
where you really don’t know much about them.
For woodworking tools I think you came to the right place, here. That may well apply to other things as well.
There's a breadth of knowledge from hobbiests and professionals to technicians who repair tools for their living who frequent knots. I've found that when you get several folks who speak highly of a tool it is usually good advice, likewise for tools that aren't highly touted.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 7/31/2009 10:57 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Edited 7/31/2009 10:58 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Tom,
My advice is different from the rest. Too many people on Knots, and too many computer-savvy types now get absolutely obsessive over finding out all the information they can about the next tool they are about to buy. When I read the reviews at Amazon, and when I read "complaints", I get the feeling that many of the complainers are nut-cases. If you don't believe me, start reading the stuff.
The problem becomes "what to believe, and what to reject". After a while, you get to "Paralysis by analysis." I watch new parents get into studying all of the different baby cribs, and baby strollers, and the different pacifiers, and the different bottle warmers, and on and on and on. It is time for them to get a life.
Some "due dilligence" is necessary. Stick with known brands. You aren't going to go wrong if you buy a Lie Nielsen plane. Heck, if you dont like it, they'll take it back. Their service is phenomenal. THis didnt happen overnight. They built a reputation based on GOOD WORK OVER A LONG PERIOD OF TIME.
Need a car? Hard to go wrong with a Toyota or a Honda. Decades of focussing on quality got them to where they are today.
Same goes for tool manufacturers. Can you go wrong with this approach. Sure, I suppose. But at least you wont become obsessive-compulsive about reading complaints.
Tool reviews, IMHO, are for the birds. Rarely do you see them with any depth. They are written for the newbies who want to be told what to do. Many are "sponsored". Surf the web on woodworking sites. Do you notice how many of them are "sponsored". Do you think they are going to say anything bad about the stuff their sponsors make?
To me, the best way to avoid a plethora of bad choices is to stick with makers who have been consistently churning out quality for a long while.
Hope this is of some use to you.
Don't worry so much about tools.
Focus on making good furniture. Great furniture can be made using thire-rate tools by people with real skill.
HAVE FUN.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
"Tool reviews, IMHO, are for the birds. Rarely do you see them with any depth. They are written for the newbies who want to be told what to do. Many are "sponsored". Surf the web on woodworking sites. Do you notice how many of them are "sponsored". Do you think they are going to say anything bad about the stuff their sponsors make?"I read a review on JLC.
After I bought the tool, I found out the reviewer was sponsored by the manufacturer. Not a great feeling.
Kosta,
I was really disappointed when I found out that almost all "reviews" are sponsored, and that the reviews done by magazines have their problems too. Magazines have to make a profit. To do that, they need advertisers. It is rare that a magazine would go out of their way to upset a sponsor. But a bigger problem that magazines have is their readers. Many, if not most, of the readers seem to want tool reviews to end up with a "winner". WHICH BAND SAW SHOULD I BUY? If the paying customers want a winner, they are going to get one, even if it isn't warranted.I like to try out a tool before I buy it. Best way I have found is to ask friends if I can try theirs. I ask their opinion, but only to find out if they have spotted any problems. I wish there was a Consumer Reports for woodworking tools. I trust that magazine completely. They PAY for the stuff they review, and they don't accept advertising, and they have a history of doing fair and good and useful reviews. BUT, I rarely take their advice. The reason is that while they provide valid information, they often weight factors differently. I gave a subscription to Consumers to each of my (adult) children and all three have grown to like it and use it. The chances of getting a woodworking equivalent of Consumers is nil, unfortunately.So you have to rely on your own judgement on tools, and on feedback from trusted friends. The Internet is a wasteland on tool reviews.Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Thanks 9619:)
Few days of research for nothing.
Actually, Now I have to waste few weeks to research my search.:(I wished I have the time to do something about it.thanxs.
Tom:
I tend to research a lot, ask questions in forums like this, and go look at tools. There is no substitute for looking at and touching tools. You will get a lot of information about how a tool feels in your hands or standing in front of a table saw or jointer and try a few adjustments. If you can get one turned on and try it, all the better.
Something else I've done is to look at the high end and low end of tool. For example, when I wanted to buy a bandsaw, I tripped over to my local Woodcraft and looked at - touched - tried the switches - wiggles the base - of both their most expensive and least expensive saws, regardless of brand. That told me a LOT about what features I liked and had to have or, conversely, what I did not like and wanted to avoid.
If you don't have much experience with tools, try taking a woodshop class. Many community colleges or city parks and recs sponsor these. Doesn't matter if it's basics, intro-to, or building cabinets - any of them will give you hands-on experience with tools, usually good ones. Then when you go to buy something you'll more easily be able to tell if something is quality or junk. You'll think "hmmm, the sheet metal housing on this is much thinner than what I used in the class" or " This smaller bandsaw has the same blade guide system that the school had, and I really liked setting it." Plus, you'll be able to ask the instructors if they have any buying ideas or advice.
I also support my local stores as much as possible. You can get screaming deals from on-line places, but there is no substitute for being in front of several different machines and really looking at them. I don't mean Home Depot or Lowe's, either, but rather your local tool place. Woodcraft, although a chain franchise, is owned and staffed by local woodworkers usually, and they have a real stake in selling something you'll like and thus want to continue to do business with them.
Have fun, good luck.
About refrigerators and such - I look to Consumer Reports as a first step, which usually has good info. But as a rule of thumb, avoid Maytag like the plague.
Carlos
THe first step is knowing what you want the machine to do. I won't buy a 'Smart Car' if I have to haul a lot of 4 x 8 sheets of plywood. On the other hand, I don't need a Hummer for my wife to go to have her nails done! So, know what you need the machine to do and add 25 to 50% capacity over that. Next ask at my local Woodworking Club AND here at Knots. As was pointed out in earlier posts, look for a name that has been around for more than a short while. The third step is to find a local store where I can purchase it. I tend to stay away from Home Depot and Lowes for machinery, first because the sales staff is not that accurate, but also because the guy or gal I speak to today probably won't be around next month or six when something happens. Yea, I'll pay a bit more at the local store, but when I walk in six months from now, they are more than willing to help me with a problem. And... some of the local stores will give me a Wood Club discount. Try to get that from HD or Lowes.
SawdustSteve Long Island, NY (E of NYC)
i use thomas tool 952-895-5613. Ask for repair and ask your question. the guys who repair them know what's inside.
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