Mike,
Can you give me some advice?
There is an ongoing thread in which a number of people have expressed disappointment at the fact that Don Green is absent from Knots. The thinking is that he was excommunicated by management for a period of time. If so, is there any way we can convince management to let him back in?
You can see from the posts in that thread that Don has been very helpful to a lot of people, and that he is respected and admired by some very good woodworkers.
My message to you is not philosophical. I don’t want to get into a discussion of what the rules of excommunication should be. I just think that it is in all our best interests to get DGreen back.
If you are not the person to whom this should have been addressed, would you forward it to the right person?
Please read through the thread on DGreen. I believe that the group is unanimous, except for one, in really wanting Don back.
Thank you for whatever you can do, or whatever light you can shine on this.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Replies
Actually, it's Matt.
As far as the DGreen controversy goes, I've followed that thread and it's a non issue on our end. A few years back (I'd have to do some research for dates), DGreen and a few other members had their accounts temporarily suspended. We reinstated the accounts and contacted all the users, and some chose not to come back or participate less.
I've since handed off the moderation duties to Gina Eide and David Heim, the two site editors, so I can't speak to any more recent account suspensions. But I don't recalling hearing about any.
- Matt
Matt, you shouldn't have to look far -- I'm doubt if it was past mid-2007. I'm not jumping on the bandwagon here, though. Don's a big boy, he can get himself "back" if he wants, even if the suspension were still in force. forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Playing with tigers it is. AZMO <!----><!----><!---->
-----------_o
---------_'-,>
-------(*)/ (*) http://www.EarthArtLandscape.com
Hi Mel,
Dgreen was locked out of Knots several months ago for House Rule violations.
If dgreen wants to be let back in he can send a note of request to David Heim, the Web managing editor.
Thanks,
Gina
FineWoodworking.com
Gina,
Thanks for the quick and positive response.
I nominate you for a raise and a promotion.I have sent an email to Don Green, letting him know that he can get back in by writing to David Heim. Thank you very much.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
All,
I just heard back from Don Green. He has been reinstated, and is happy to be back. I thank Matt and Gina and David for making this happen. We here in Knots have GREAT support at Headquarters!!!MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Not bad Mel.. not bad at all. In lieu of depending on the 3 candidates currently running for high office, could you possibly do something about the gas and milk prices? My cup is only half-full and my tank is running on empty! :>)
You got my vote BTW... :>)
Sarge..
Sarge,
Always glad to help a friend.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mike,
Can you give me some advice?
Actually, it's Matt.
And who says Knots isn't funny ;)
Lee
This is the experience of a random knots reader/poster: Dgreen never helped me; in fact he put a very sour tone on more than a couple evening sessions. I for one am glad the house rules are enforced, and am sure there are many others who don't miss the insults.
Brian
Brian,
Have you tried the options menu "Ignore" feature? Click "Options" at lower left of message. Click the highlighted "Ignore". People whose posts you do not care to read are deleted from your messages. This is not foolproof: occasionally persons you have chosen to ignore reappear under a different screen name....
Best!
-Jerry
Brian,
I am sorry you had a bad experience with Don. I never said that Don or I or anyone else was perfect. If you ever get offended by anyone on Knots (and this happens), it is easy to respond privately to that person by using the "Reply via Email" option, and tell the person that you'd rather keep a lighter tone. They may go along, and all is well. If they don't go along, then my way of handling it would be to just ignore them. We all get in a bad mood once in a while. Of course, the best way to handle it is to get out of the bad mood. But the idea of throwing someone out of Knots because they used a sour tone is not "my way". That is just my approach to life. Don is a VERY VERY good woodworker and you can see by the many posts that a lot of people like him, and he has helped many folks here on Knots, including me. Forgetting Don for a second, this phenomenon of getting upset at a sour message is quite an interesting human phenomenon. For instance, suppose you sent me a message which denounced my woodworking skills, use profane language, and then said something nasty about my mother. My response would not to get angry, but rather to be disappointed in you. It is MY CHOICE to get angry or not. I choose not to. I do not choose to have the offender put in chains. No harm was caused because IT WAS MY CHOICE to ignore the sour message. There was a guy named Woerner Erhardt, who taught seminars called "EST" or "Erhardt Seminar Training" back in the 1960s. His main tenet was "IF you don't take control of your life, someone else will." If someone sends me a sour message, I take control of my life and ignore it. If I let the person get me down, I have given him control of my life. I choose to control my life. When I first got on Knots, Forestgirl sent me a message warning me that some threads get pretty tense, and advised me to stay out of such stuff. I got into one anyway, and my message was humorous, or at least that was the way I meant it, and I used smiley faces to make sure it was taken that way. Well, one person took great offense and sent me a private message telling me that my remarks were directed to him personally, and that they were insulting. I responded "Via email" that I had no idea who he was, and my remarks were meant to be humorous, and my remarks were NOT aimed at him. AND I apologized that my writing was so poor that it could be misunderstood. He wrote back and said that he was sorry that he misunderstood my remarks. AND ALL WAS WELL.Interestingly enough, my message was not the problem. The problem was that he decided to take it personally when that was not intended. MY POINT is that "beauty is in the eyes of the beholder", and so isn't ugliness. TO ME, the problem in Knots is not that someone posts a sour message, but that anyone would bother to take it personally, when they could just choose to ignore it. That is my long way of saying that, IMHO, if Don or anyone else sent you a sour message and you took it badly, then the problem is you and not Don. It was your choice to get upset. I am not saying that anyone else agrees with my way of handling sour messages or life in general. It is my way. I like it. I am not telling you to adopt it, but "try it -- you may like it." It does call for self-discipline and self-control. It calls for a person to take control of their own life and emotions, and to not blame others.Who knows, maybe I got this way by watching too many weekly installments of David Carradine in KUNG FU on television. :-)We all have faults. I write too much. But then again, I enjoy writing. Some people enjoy getting peeved at other people's behavior. I worked at NASA for 28 years. For the last bunch of years, I was in an office next to a guy who often used he phrase "I got annoyed when he/she did that." First of all, I didn't care that he was annoyed. Second, no one else did either. Thirdly, it was his choice to get annoyed. Fourth, why be "annoyed" because it is so unpleasant. Why not just get on with life and not be annoyed. Anyway, I hope that reading my way of handling sour messages or other things that one might find "annoying" is useful to you. You know, one could take this a step further, and say, "You know what really annoys me. It is not sour messages, but people who get annoyed at sour messages. Why don't we have them thrown out of Knots because they can't control their own emotions." PLEASE NOTE: I do not feel this way. I am merely stretching things to make a point (which I have already beated to death). I apologize for the length of this message. I apologize if you took offense at any of it. My advice: relax. Take it easy. Never get offended. If you find yourself getting angry/offended/annoyed, just take the responsibility to take control of your emotions and move on to something you enjoy. (With me, that would be chocolate ice cream).Y'all have fun. Enjoy Knots and the Knotheads, with all of their skills and their flaws.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Master Mel,
I offer a standing ovation to you for that.
Best Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 5/21/2008 7:59 am ET by KiddervilleAcres
Mel,
You know what annoys me? People who never get annoyed! It's just sooo irritating! Those kinds of people need to lay off the Prozac and drink more coffee. And kick a dog once in a while.
(There--did I do it right?)
-Steve
Steve,
The only reason I wrote that message was to annoy you. We all know that you are the Seed of The Devil, and you are here to cause terror among woodworkers. You are probably now concocting diseases to eliminate trees in all states but yours. (God, what a terrible thought.) Meanwhile, I know a woodworker who is also a hypnotist. He brags that he can use hypnosis to turn me into another Charles Stanford, and that after he finishes, I will have at least 26 names. Watch for my next few posts and see if he is successful. Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel, ROTFLMAO on that one!
Patrick,
I must be old. I had to look up "ROTFLMAO".
It wasn't hard to find on Google.
Thank you. I will use that one in the future.
You have changed my life.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Steve,
NO< NO< NO dog kicking. Cats, mebbe..... I'm getting around to connecting up my dual DC this afternoon. Still some shopping and "off the cuff" design on the spot. I'll let you know how it turns out.
Best!
-Jerry
(No Dog Kicking....)
Jerry,
Careful them little doggies don git too close to that double barreled DC, theys apt to lose some hair!
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Hey Bob!
Boarder Collie. He's smart enough to know better. The devious and mysterious cat wonders where all that wooshing air is going, and how fast is it moving. Many years ago I had a shop newbie suck up a mouse into a shop vac. (Oops, don't mean to offend you with the strong language....). A few days later, the poor kid just did not understand where the foul odor was coming from, and why we.... (balance of message truncated due to graphic content and...)
Best!
-Jerry
We used to have a border collie (Laddie) years ago. An incredibly smart dog but had to be very active. One thing though, the chickens used to roam all over the place and he would proudly round them up and herd 'em back into their pen.
Now Chewie, a full grown collie does the same thing only he still hasn't realized that there are two doors in the barn. He'll chase them into the barn thru the front door and then go lay down gloating about the fine job he has done.
Then the chick will sneak out the back door. When Chewie finally spots them he's all wild eyed and confused - with that how in hell did they get out again look in his eyes and dashes off to do his thing again.
Kinda like a sideshow in the backyard!
Yeah, he even talks to you like Chewbacca, hence the name.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 5/21/2008 2:53 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Steve,
If you kick MY dawg, I'll...I'll....I'll.... be very bad to you!!
Lataxe, dawg-protector and revenger.
PS Don't pick on my cat either. He was once the familiar of a witch and knows all about your soft parts.
Late reply since just returned from brief holiday.
That has always been my creed, never be provoked, just be satisfied by knowing I am right and have attempted to bring a little light to a beleagured and troubled soul which, alas, is beyond redemption.
Now, what is the problem?
Mel:Well said. It is good to be reminded that it is my choice how to respond to something, not someone else's.That said, we seem to live in a world where no one can be offended. But would you want to live in such a world? By definition it would, perforce, be boring and bland. Rather like living on tofu and whole wheat directly injected into your stomach. It may take care of nutrition but it sure isn't living.Bring on the curmudgeons I say. Don't let the politically correct reduce us to a flavorless mess o' potage. And to those who would take offense at every possible slight: lighten up and think of Herr. Erhardt.Hastings
Hastings,
I was fairly sure that no one would read my overly long message. I got back three responses in just a few hours. That shows you how well I understand human nature.Glad that you, Steve and Bob enjoyed my post. I hope the person I responded to didn't take it badly. Don't get me wrong. I don't like to see provocative messages. I feel there is never a need for it. I LOVE TO SEE cleverness, intelligence and wit. But like you said, it would be bland to have everybody acting nice. Hope your are making some masterpieces and having fun. I am loving this retirement stuff. I have a new grandson and I have been doing a lot of woodwork -- hewing bowls out of firewood. Pretty soon all members of the family will have one, and I'll have to find another way to occupy myself. Enjoy,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
For long time I have wanted a set of wooden popcorn bowls so if you run out of folks who would be proud to have some of your bowls........
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
What species of wooden popcorn are your favorite and do you need wooden teeth to eat wooden popcorn? Must be a lot of detail carving to get a bowlful. Better ask Mel for a small bowl.------------------------------------
It would indeed be a tragedy if the history of the human race proved to be nothing more than the story of an ape playing with a box of matches on a petrol dump. ~David Ormsby Gore
It seems to me,it's not getting angry that is the problem,it's what one gets angry at.!
Succinct is a word we could all learn.
I chalk a lot of the human nature problems up to vanity--self love, ego. Ego attempts to make one seem strong when they are actually weak. Vanity tries to set one apart from that which they are inseparable from. They are all one in the same and should be downplayed and avoided to the fullest extent possible.
Ever see the movie "The Devils Advocate"? It stars Al Pacino as the devil. I love the last line in the flick when the devil says "VANITY, definitely my most favorite sin."
The best to all, Chris.
Mel,
I'll bet that Dap Ren--the Living ECK Master--could beat up Erhardt any day of the week.
Look, I never said I was annoyed or angry with Dgreen. I don't think the issue should be with ME here. I'm saying that this incident is one case where I thought to myself, 'yes, this is why an istitution such as FWW has rules, and it's nice to see that once in a while rules are actually enforced'. I'm not happy he's out. I do think he probably derved it (according to whatever the rules are, which are probably similar to ones I would make if I were in the comercial internet chat business). All readers aren't as caluosed as some of us, you know. It seems to me that this exchange is a privelege, not a right.Your a very good friend to be campaigning for him, I just wanted to show another perspective alongside yours. It's only fair. If you want to talk about anything to do with woodworking in the future I would be happy to.Brian
Hi Brian,
My message wasn't about "you". It was about a general way many people react to other messages. I intended my message (and probably failed miserably) to be a general statement on different ways of reacting to sour messages. I have no idea what the interaction between you and Don was, and am not anxious to find out. I would like to get off of this topic and get back to woodwork. I also do not want to lose the possibility of having you as a "friend". If this ends with you being upset with me, I will have lost an opportunity. My particular approach to Knots is very much an interpersonal sharing of ideas. I never get into arguments, and won't here. Philosophical discussions, like political discussions often lead to hard feelings around here, and I am too old to want to spend time with hard feelings, when I can be having fun. So, I merely gave my opinion on how to handle sour messages. My opinion and $4 will get you a coffee at Starbucks. According to my wife, I am rarely right. :-) So please feel free to look at my message as a foolish mans ramblings, and let it go. Let's turn this into something good. Let me take the first step. I live near Washington, DC in the village of Burke, Virginia. If you ever come this way, please let me know. My wife and I will cook up a good barbecue for you and yours, and we swap some woodworking stories and have a good time. I have lit the peace pipe and passed it to you. While I am more Italian than American Indian, it is a great tradition. I hope you will accept my offer. Let's get back to talking woodwork. I am lousy at discussing policing matters. It is like discussing root canals. No fun.Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
You just mentioned Burke. When I first went to work out of college, I was working in the DC area, and I lived in Springfield with my Aunt and Uncle for a few months, off Braddock road, around the corner from Burke. Nice area (but crowded).
I took off for the midwest once I got married but I miss it out there. So much to do and beautiful things to see, interesting people from all over the country. Can't say that I miss the traffic, and I like being able to afford a house.
Happy bowl gouging, Cal
I am not a writer nor am I very articulate.
My question would be why get angry or upset. We are given only so many days on earth and if I wake up, it is a great day.
Just my opinion.
He who dies with the most toys is nonetheless DEAD.
Cal,
You got it. You know Burke. Still the same. Just more crowded and more traffic. My wife and I raised three great kids here, and they went off to Calif, Fla and Maryland. Now my wife and I are retired so we can get in the car when when traffic is light. Thanks for writing and letting me know. If you get back this way, PLEASE let me know and we will cook up some burgers and tell some woodworking lies.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Hey, Mel, I've got no problem with you at all. Quite to the contrary. And I think I am OK at dealing with sour messages. My only point is that I can sympathize with editors/moderators who want to keep it clean. They want to be all inclusive, not foot the bill for private bickering, which only makes FWW look unappealing to the first time, innocent natured single mom woodworker . . . for example. Rather than asking readers/recipients to 'ignore', maybe we should be asking certain posters, to 'restrain'. Seems a little more fair. Thanks to you, I'm getting a little clearer each time I write this. I really would like to get to know you better, as I have always enjoyed your posts, I recall . . . What kind of work do you do? Not sure I'll EVER make it to Virginia. I'm in far northern CA. I'm a daytime carpenter and weekend woodworker, though I've been able to reverse that for certain periods. I want to design some chairs . . . a sculpted armchair for my computer desk to begin with. Have to see what my supplier has in 8/4 . . .
I'll talk to you later.Brian
Brian,
Glad we don't have problems. You don't have to worry about me getting acid in tone. Not my style. But I have learned that not everyone is going to be civil, and that I can't fix that. I actually tried to talk Charles Stanford into being more civil. I tried to show him how his approach is self-defeating. I failed miserably. But then again, what chance does anyone have of changing another person who is past mid-life. Rather than try to control other people's behavior, I think it is best for me to try to control my own. I would like everyone to be civil, but that will never happen. So the next best thing, IMHO, is to just ignore the "not so civil". You point out that nasty posts "makes FWW look unappealing to the first time, innocent natured single mom woodworker."That was a well turned phrase. You are a good writer. But I think that the "first time, innocent nature single mom woodworkers" would be best to learn a bit more about the world as it is. It will make them stronger. My kids are all grown now. I used to be concerned about what they were exposed to on computers and in the real world, but I didn't put much in the way of restrictions on them because all they would have to do is to go to a friend's computer and see anything they want. Fortunately they all grew up nicely. They got advanced degrees, spouses and jobs and they seem to be quite happy. No way is perfect. I believe we all have a little bit of Jeckle and Hyde in us. Some are more on one side than the other. It may be nature or it may be nurture. Atempting to control the behavior of others is a thankless task. It can be done to some extent if we can control how the other person is rewarded, but we are usually very limited in that sense. People just don't change their behavior easily. Have you ever tried to help someone stop drinking? Have you ever worked with a person who pilfers, and suggest that they stop? Do you have a family member of friend who is overweight and did you try to get them to slim down and exercise more and eat better? GOOD LUCK.OK so much for that topic, which is not my favorite.You asked what I do in woodwork. I have been making furniture and doing carving since 1968. If you look at my messages over in the Turning and Carving folder, you will see some of my recent work. Over the past year I have gotten into making bowls from recently felled logs - green woodworking. I started doing it with hand tools - and adze and gouges. I have added power carving tools. I am retired now, so I have more time for this. Have fun. Good to have you for a friend.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Hi, Mel. Thanks for complementing my writing. I got through a year of masters english before losing interest. Knots is the only writing practice I've had in the last year. My handwriting is getting unsure like a kids while my ability to jot numbers has reached mach speed.It's my nature to present the opposing side to any arguement, which is why I kept responding to your messages in the beginnning. You know, I guess I'm one of those people that is more or less happy that there are rules in the infrastructure of life: I'm happy there are speed limits, property lines, and the rights that business owners to create there own policies. But that is only one side of the arguement regarding Dgreen (in faithfulness to the thread), I know.I'll defiinately check out your work. I may have some carving questions for you in the future. Maybe I'll post a pic of my workbench when done, or the desk chair I'm thinking about. It's nice knowing you; you seem like a genuinely 'good' person (you're spot on about the Jeckel and Hyde thing with everyone--great analogy). Did you say what you are retired from? Just so you know more about me, I'm 32, married for 3 years (happily, I think . . . ), and have the best little 15 month old daughter named Violet. I'll talk to you later, Mel.Brian
Brian,
Congratulations on Violet. There is nothing more important than one's kids!Can't wait to see your photosI retired from NASA. Was there for 28 years. I am 64. Married my wife in 1969. We have three kids (fully grown). I am proud to say that all three are happily married, have advanced degrees and good jobs, and so don't their spouses. Can't beat that with a stick. The oldest builds robot cars at Stanford University, and is married to a girl who works at Google. The second is a bridge designer in Tallahassee and is married to a Sixth grade teacher. The third, our daughter is in business computing and is married to an accountant, and has given us our first grandchild (a week after I retired). You are a little older than my oldest.I too am glad we have rules.
My heuristic on rules is the same as Einstine's ideas on theories - they should be as simple as possible, but no simpler.I tend to hang out over in that long (more than 3000 posts) thread in Hand Tool folder. Stop on over and just post a message saying hello, and I'll answer you over there. It is a great thread with no particular topic. Lots of conversations going on at the same time. BEST OF ALL, AND YOU WILL LOVE THIS - No trouble in that thread. Everyone is quite nice. Never an argument. Never a mean post. Somehow it worked out that the folks who hang out there are your kind of people. I'd like to move our conversation out of the thread on Don Green, since we have finished with that topic.Hope to see you in the Lie Nielsen thread, which has nothing to do with Lie Nielsen, in Hand Tools soon.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Aint love grand.
cic,
Kumbaya.
Ray
Ray,
Not quite on track,but then as Mel would say,go for it.....
A lady's imagination is very rapid; it jumps from admiration to love, from love to matrimony in a moment”
This is not a proposal.
Ray,
This brings back the good ol days.
The days of the Kingston Trio and the Brothers Four, and The greatest singing duo of all time -- The Everly Brothers, who might just be even better than Nelson Eddy and Jeanette MacDonald. Those were the days of piece and love. :-)Wben you close your eyes, can't you just visualize the old hootenannys. You would say to someone, "Hi".
And the answer would come back, "Sure, you too?. This sure is good Sh.., man. You wanna hit." EGAD. Those are scary thoughts. I think I like things better now. They are more natural now. You insult someone else's shoulder plane, and they take offense and insult your Fein Multi Master. Pretty soon, everybody is POed, and writing acid messages. The current was is the far more natural way to go. Let it all hang out. Back in the old days, they would just hold it all in, and they needed drugs to calm down. I learned how important it is to get others angry when I started playing poker seriously. Cicero believes it is good to get angry. I want to play poker with Cicero. It is easier make errors when angry. I love the old saying by Napolean, "Never interrupt your enemy when he is making a mistake." So my approach to poker is to stir the pot, and "Laissez les bon temps roullez." Gotta go make some bowls. I keep confusing myself here on Knots.
Have fun.
Stay away from vice presidents who are hunting.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
The difference in music then and now amazes me.
Back then, Bill Whithers sang "Lean on me, when you're not strong, I'll be your friend, I'll help you carry on..."
Thirty couple years later we have the Stone Temple Pilots singing "all your weight falls on me, its bringing me down..."
There seems to be some form of story about our mindset changing in our world in there somewhere.
Chris,
How about a song entitled,
"He ain't heavy. He's my woodworker."
"You may be right.
I may be crazy.
But it just may be a woodworker that you're looking for." I could go on, but I won't.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
How 'bout the Beatles tune,
If I fell in love with wood, could I build me something good, like build meee a night stand; Oh I tried me one before, couldn't get it through the door, so I'll try one not so grand.
So if I give my heart--to wood, I must be sure from the very start--to measure real good, cause I couldn't stand the pain--that I, built another piece in vain. If I fell in love with wood.
But then, there's ALWAYS Norwegian wood. (never could figure why they would sing a song about some Norwegian's libido)(sorry--it's late).
Chat tomorrow.
Chris.
Brian,
You said that you want to sculpt a chair. Great idea. The Norwegians have been doing it for a long time. Phillip Odden is one of the well known carvers in that style. They make what is called a Kubbestol, and it is carved from a log. To see some, go to:http://www.norskwoodworks.com/kubbesto.shtmlLet me know what you think,
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
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