Replies

1. 
   oldusty | Jun 30, 2009 10:14pm | #1

     8 % mc should be good to go , one question I would ask you is how have these planks been stored ? Have they been in a stack laying flat ?

         My question is aimed at determining if the boards need to be aired out better to equalize again . Also it is my experience that air dried wood moves more then kd and picks up and drops more moisture then kd woods do in general.

                regards  dusty

1. 
   rm | Jun 30, 2009 10:55pm | #2

   Hi Dusty,

   I have about 500 bdf of this lumber and it has all been stored flat for at least 7 years now - and always undercover but outdoors.  Last year I brought some inside my shop for use later (now).  When it came into the shop I did a quick edge joint and face joint on two sides and then minimally planed both sides to see what was underneath.   The boards cupped quite quickly once in the shop as they did not have the weight I guess of the original pile they came from.  They sat in that form until  recently - the last month or so.   Everything is my shop is 8% and stays that way summer and winter (insulated and heated).   My house is about the same.

   We are pretty dry around here (southern interior of British Columbia) and don't see crazy swings in humidity season to season.   I need panels / lids approx. 20" - 22" in width and 36 -42" in length.   If I were to use these as is for the box side panels I don't think I would worry too much as the joinery should pull everything into line (assumption??).  Its more the lids as you will see the gap if they don't sit flat.

   Ray

1. 
   knuts | Jun 30, 2009 11:37pm | #3

   I just cut the muscle out of cranky boards and re-glue.

2. 
   WillGeorge | Jul 02, 2009 11:51am | #6

   Dusty..

   I had the same problem with some 18 inch wide planks of Sapele. Flat sawn not quarter sawn. YES, I have seen 18 inch wide by 10 foot long QS sapele but I could not afford it. Even IF I had some, no way to get it home 'safely' on my SUV!

   I for one think if you can 'change' your design to put the panels into a strong frame Life will be simpler!

   I'd bet you could continue to plane them down to 1/4 inch and they may still twist and wind...

   I am not sure how to explain this because I never know what I'm talking about.

   I once made a sort of large panel from wood as you describe. I glued two of them together switching ends. Yes, NOT three panels.. But it was workable and still used to this day.. Yes, sometimes you see a corner lift 'a bit'. Hardly ever notice it these days!

   I have no idea how thick you want the top.. In the past, I made some very long shelves for  bookcase.. My Son-In-Law that is a Ph.D. with MANY, MANY.. books

   I made a top and bottom panel and routed out for several plows #I recall three# 1/4 X 1/4 angle irons to fit and used that 'red' powered nasty to use glue that holds forever to anything! I think WeldWood sells it. Ya mix with water and hope for the best! Wonderful glue!

   Angle iron in a Sandwich! It works.. And then again is a torsion board better?

    

2. 
   zolton | Jul 01, 2009 03:08am | #4

   Ray,

   A long time ago, a musical instrument maker gave me some very good advice about lumber. He said that whenever you plane or cut wood you relieve some stresses  - but you create others.

   That's probably why a wide board is continuing to move after you work it down. By removing some of the surface you're relieving some stress there, but that might allow tension in other parts of the board to deform it.

   So you're chasing something that is hard to nail down. Unless you do, in fact, nail it down...

   And that might be something to keep in mind. It's going to be very difficult to stop such wide boards from cupping, twisting or moving. If they're used for a chest lid, for instance, the top surface will be subject to changing seasonal humidity cycles. The underside of the lid will be protected from that atmosphere and will react more slowly. And that likely will result in some sort of undesireable movement.

   So, your best bet might be to go with breadboard ends or cross-cleats on the underside of the chest's lid. While one of those methods might not be in keeping with the design you're doing, they will definitely help keep the lid flat. 

   It is doubtful that cutting the wide boards into smaller ones will help with this situation. Again, stresses will be relieved and others will arise that will allow the boards - unless they are restrained - to move.

   Zolton 

   If you see a possum running around in here, kill it. It's not a pet. - Jackie Moon

3. 
   JohnWW | Jul 01, 2009 03:00pm | #5

   Ray,

   You have wide flat sawn boards and it is inevitable that they are going to cup and twist and then flatten out and move the other way for the rest of their lives, it is just the nature of wood.

   Some of your problems are probably due to stress relief as the stock is machined thinner and that will work out over time, but the wood movement from moisture gain and loss will go on forever, unless you can keep the wood in a very tightly controlled environment. Even if you can maintain a very stable humidity in your shop, at some point the piece will go out into the real world and will undoubtedly be exposed to environments with wide humidity swings and the wood will move quite a bit.

   By gluing up a panel from carefully chosen narrower strips of straight grained quarter sawn lumber you could create a panel that would be quite stable but the grain pattern will be plain looking. A panel made from randomly oriented narrower strips, including flat sawn segments, will also be more stable though not as reliably as an all quarter sawn panel.

   You rarely see quality furniture made from unrestrained wide panels precisely because that style of construction is unstable.

   John White
   Shop Manager for FWW Magazine, 1998-2007

4. 
   Barrie2777 | Jul 03, 2009 05:06am | #7

   I have one theory about a twisted board....a crooked board will always be a crooked board. If you keep planing it down you wil eventually have a veneer then you can glue that to something flat. Some boards are just not meant to be without a rigid frame.

1. 
   rm | Jul 03, 2009 08:23am | #8

   Yes indeed and so in lies the joys of working with solid wood.   I think pretty much what everyone is saying is that I've got it as good as it is going to get without "planing it down to veneer" :) . Funny thing is that I've almost done that in past.

   The box sides will lock everything together with whatever joinery I use - dove tails most likely (no nails here), and the lids will be what they are.  As mentioned things are out no more than 1/16 to maybe an 1/8 at worst corner to corner and really you wouldn't notice them unless you sat on the floor and looked at them from eye level.  The flat grain is really nice and the lids wouldn't look right if they were all edge grain.

   Thank you all for your comments - you have helped me with what I probably already knew to be true - I am my own worst critic when doing these sorts of things.   Now to finish them ......

   Have a great 4th of July weekend!!

   Ray

    

1. 
   JohnWW | Jul 03, 2009 05:40pm | #9

   Ray,The problem is that an unrestrained large panel, like your box lids, are going to move when the humidity changes, next winter, when the heat is on in the house, that 1/16" could be 1/2".John White
   Shop Manager for FWW Magazine, 1998-2007

1. 
   rm | Jul 04, 2009 04:46am | #10

   Hi John,

   So do you think that cleats (as Zolton mentioned) and as Peter Turner used for the lid on his chest (FW  No.203) would be sufficient enough holding power to keep seasonal changes in check?   The lids are to 1" in thickness and they are currently at 5/4.   What if one were to run a dado across the bottom side of the lid and recess the cleat into the board - maybe 3/8" and then glued and screwed?   Although it is twist that I am more concerned about rather than cuping.   The hinges will anchor the lid along the back as well.

   We don't get wild humidity swings here but I do heat with wood in the winter so the house is fairly dry ...1/2" would be a little unsightly.   I guess the only thing to do is try, maybe with cleats and see what happens.     Everything else I have made in the house is a mix of veneer plywoods and solid wood along with good soild joinery - no free panels or at least fixed into a frame ... and no movement.

   And I thought I had this figured out...

   Thx ... Ray

1. 
   JohnWW | Jul 04, 2009 03:35pm | #11

   Ray,There is no great solution to this, cleats will help sometimes but they have to be installed in a way the allows the wood to expand and contract, so gluing and screwing isn't possible, and if the board at the hinge side warps the whole thing will still twist. Bread board ends are a somewhat better solution, but difficult to make and they again have to allow for wood movement. Despite the claim in another posting, ripping the stock into narrow strips, around 2" wide, and gluing it back together with the grain randomly oriented will result in a much more stable panel. This is how, and why, solid core plywoods are made this way and why solid maple kitchen counter tops are made from narrow strips.The hinges along the back aren't going to help, it just means that whatever happens will all show up at the front edge.The traditional solution is to make a tightly jointed frame for the top out of straight grained warp free quarter sawn wood, and then install a panel in it, the thinner the better to minimize its ability to stress the frame.John White

5. 
   BrianDerr | Jul 04, 2009 06:58pm | #12

   I think that ripping and regluing would make them more stable only if you flip every other section so that the other face is showing. Otherwise find a strong mechanical method of holding them flat, or rip and don't reglue but add battons or stiles or T&Gs. Most woodworkers would not recommend using such wood for wide panels, at least a thick and wide panel.

   Brian