My shop is in the garage (2 car) Now that the temp is starting to drop, I am wondering the best way to heat it. My walls and garage doors are insulated. I have natural gas heating. I have considered the little oil filled radiators to try take the edge off this winter. How do you do it?
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Replies
I couldn't figure out how to stop the heat from leaking out throught the large garage door; after 2 years of struggling and being miserable all winter, I gave in and framed a room in the garage. This had a couple of advantages; besides solving the heating problem, it prevented dust from covering everything else in the garage, a problem that annoyed my wife to no end.
That said, I'm still not sure how I'll heat it. I guess I'll try to rout a vent from the central heat; that way I'll be able to get AC too. But for those like yourself, who plan to keep the space a garage, I've read that the most practical way to do it is with a ceiling-mounted radiant heater; that setup is not designed to heat the air or space, but just the worker, like sitting in the sun on a cold winter day. A search in the Knots archives ought to turn something up on that subject. My problem with it has always been that the tools will be freezing, and I felt that this would take a lot of the joy out of it. I also was worried that the change in temperature from a cold shop to a warm house would cause my projects to warp or split after moving them to the house, and that I still would have no space to apply finish.
Good luck, you have my empathy.
Charlie
Thanks for the reply. Believe it or not mine is pretty well insulated. I managed to cool it this summer with a window unit airconditioner. I thought about taping into the heating vent that runs overhead. I found out though that building codes (in my area) forbid sharing heating systems with a garage. When I asked why, I was told due to the danger of carbon monoxide seeping into the house. I like gas heat and would consider the little wall units or the overhead kind, but am concerned about ignition issues.
The direct vent wall units running on gas are sealed against inside air reaching the burner, they use outside air for combustion, so they don't present an open flame ignition risk. I've used direct vent units in several shops and my house, they work well. They are a little bit fussy to install but the installation can be done in a few hours.
Any heating unit, including the direct vents, whether gas, electric, or oil, that reach high surface temperatures on the heat exchanger will cause dust and finishing vapors to scorch and create burnt odors, but they don't present an unreasonable fire hazard. Radiant floor, hot water, or the oil filled radiators run at lower surface temperatures and don't cause problems with dust and finishing fumes.
John W.
Bones,
One of the first things you need to do is figure out how much heat (BTU's)you need. As I remember the coefficients, its been forty years, for every foot of insulated wall space you loose 9 BTU's per hour, 80 BTU's for every square foot of glass, and about 15 BTU's for insulated ceiling square footage. Also, calculate the volumn of the room and double that number (two air changes per hour). Adding the numbers together gives you the heat loss. When sizing a heating unit buy twice the estimated BTU loss of the area....that provides for inefficiencies in the heating unit, and colder days than average.
The next issue is the type of heat you want....flash heat to take off the chill....or sustained heat for long term utilization(in there all day working) of the area or something in-between.
Armed with that info you're ready to make some decisions...
My shop is small (I'm a hobbyist) 12'x14' behind the garage and attached to the house. It is insulated. I live in Salt Lake City and winters can be cold. Our normal temp right now is about 65 and in winter it will get to 0 F (more often in the 10 to 15) range, and sometimes below. Last winter I used a kerosene heater but it is not convenient, takes up a lot of floor space and strikes me as being a bit dangerous. I am contemplating a 220v portable electric heater, 4000 watts. Has anyone had any experience with one of these?
Frank
I have been useing Electric Heat in my three car for 5 years now 240v small 30amp heater.
This has heated the shop very well.and is very safe for spraying Laq etc.Graningers .com
has many heaters to pick from.
Thanks, I will go check them out. Had not thought about graingers.
I have a dedicated shop, but use a hanging natural gas heater. Even if not run all winter i can warm the shop up to 65 degrees within an hour or so (24'x28'). My next shop will be radiant floor heat, not an option for your setup.
Aaron
What brand and how many BTU's is yours?
Mine is an old Janitrol that does 50,000 BTU's.
I'm in San Jose with both mild winters (40 - 55d typical) and summers (75 - 95d typical).
I used a Fredrich through the wall heat pump for both heating and cooling. Takes about 30 minutes to get the garage warm to about 70d on a winter morning and about 45 minutes to cool the garage from 95 to 75 in the summer. My garage is not insulated.
Cost about $750 and required a 220V 15amp circuit. Would do it again.
_________________________________
Michael in San Jose
"In all affairs it's a healthy thing now and then to hang a question mark on the things you have long taken for granted." Bertrand Russell
$750? Arrrrgh -- that's pretty economical! What is a "through-the-wall" heat pump? I Googled to find pics, but no luck. How complicated was installation?? forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
I got my unit from MSC Direct http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT?PARTPG=NNSRAR2&PMPXNO=4480665 (similar) on sale and I think it was about $775 delivered.
I have a 2X4 wall stucco outside, drywall in. The unit is about 16" high and 25" wide. It comes with a 22 or so guage sheetmetal box that is attached to the wall framing in the hole you cut in the wall and the unit itself slides into the box. Took me about two hours to install, and that includes sawing the stucco for the hole.
Very easy install and it really keeps the garage, er shop, warm/cool._________________________________
Michael in San Jose
"In all affairs it's a healthy thing now and then to hang a question mark on the things you have long taken for granted." Bertrand Russell
Wow, looks like a window air conditioner, eh? Over the past couple of years, I've probably followed 25 different threads on heating the shop, and never seen one of those. A great idea, thanks for posting the link.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
This maybe old news now but its in response to your post regarding a thru wall heater for your work shop. Have you selected a heater?
I'm in Richmond VA and it gets down to frezzing.
I am planning to use this type heater/cooling Heatpump for the office area above the workshop. Their called Packaged units., the same things used in a motel room. I have found several on eBay 9-12,000 BTU for $5-600. Search ebay under "Heat Pump". They apear to be easy to install because they are self comtained. Just need the correct sized opening and adiquate power. The problem in the shop will be dust accumulation. Radiant heat looks apealing to me but I need to check on the ceiling height minimums.
Good
I've not been looking for heating options (have a woodburning stove, installed 2 years ago), but I have been intrigued by the heat pump option, and passed it along to a couple of other people. If we ever, ever move, I'm definitely going to look at the heat pump for the next place.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Acutally, I ended up using a $30.00 radiator type oil filled heater I picked up a BigLots years ago and was in a closet. Right now it's 5 outside and the shop is around 60. When I had my house built 6 years ago, I paid extra to have the garage insualted well and put in insulated garage doors. I'm going to try this and see if I can tolerate it.
I have little window unit air conditioner I use for summer (picked up at sam's club for $79.00). I really would like to put in a gas heater of some kind but will have to pay for christmas for the kids first. Let me know if you put one of those heatpump things in and it goes ok.
Thanks. I have look at many options, but had not seen that one. The through the wall sounds interesting, but how much floor space do you have to compromise and how much bracing is required. I have been looking at one called Hot dawg that hangs from the ceiling. I wonder which would be cheaper electric or gas.
http://www.growersupply.com/45btuhotdawh.html
Edited 10/16/2004 9:08 am ET by bones
My garage ceiling is about 8.5' and the bottom of the unit is about 6.25'. I don't lose any floor space except I need to move my Performax 16/32 slightly to get at the controls.
There is no bracing required. The unit fits between three studs (assuming 16" oc) and all that is required is to cut the middle stud out and put a top and bottom plate between the outside two studs and a cripple at the 25" width. Like I said, it only took about two hours and I work really slow.
It is a very space conscious solution._________________________________
Michael in San Jose
"In all affairs it's a healthy thing now and then to hang a question mark on the things you have long taken for granted." Bertrand Russell
bones, I did some research before we put in our woodburning stove. There are charts out there that compare the costs of different fuel sources per BTUs produced. Here are a couple of links:
http://www.altereagle.com/Fuel_cost.html
http://www.ext.nodak.edu/extpubs/ageng/structu/ae1015a.pdfforestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Bones
I have a Hot Dawg heater (45k btu) in the main shop (24x24).
And a Empire wall heater (35K btu) I've just added to the new addition (12x30).
Both run on LP, which is cheaper here then electric in Vermont.
My shop has a timer to turn on the heat early morning and off later in the day to save on fuel (I can override if needed).
I'm somewhat well insulated, but constantly trying to improve it as necessary.
Last winter, the -20 temperatures were a killer for heating. (that's why I just added the Empire unit).
I would have bought another Hot Dawg, but got a great price on the used Empire.
Depending on where you are and costs, will help you decide.
Jeff
To bones. I live in the northwest. My shop is 2X4 walls, insulated walls and ceiling. When I first set it up I tried using a portable kerosene heater. What a disaster! Everything metal in the shop rusted. It seems that heating with an unvented kerosene heater creates a lot of moisture. I finally bought a ceiling mounted propane heater vented through the roof. My shop is 18 X 24, and I don't recall what the heat output is. Just thought I'd offer my experience.
Art
I have a small (12 by 12) shop in the Chicago area. I use 2 wall mounted heaters from WB Marvin (you can find them on the internet). I think they were like $80 each or something in that area. They do fine for making the shop comfortable enough to work in. I still need a jacket, but the hands stay warm enough. I also have a small space heater that I use to warm up tools if I'm going to be using them.
When people 100 years from now see my work, they'll know I cared. --Matt Mulka
Bones,
I am surprised no body has ask you where you live. Makes a big difference when it comes to figuring out what kind of heat is good for you.
I live in upstate NY. It can get pretty cold here. We have very good electric rates (about 6 cents a kilowatt hour) where I live because of a special deal for communities in NY with their own electrical distribution system. Therefore, I have a 7.5 KW electric heater hanging from the ceiling of an insulated garage to keep the temp reasonable. Around 45 degrees. I also have a Marvin 1500 watt radiant heater mounted so I can rotate it to covere the table saw, Jointer, miter saw, work bench and other primary work areas. It provides enough direct heat that I don't have to keep the whole place at 60 plus to be comfortable.
I got my radiant heater from Lowes but you can see one at leevalley.com if it seems of interest. I think they are around $50.
Without the great electric rates we have I would have a direct vent natural gas heater mounted on the wall but I would keep the radiant unit. Boy does it feel nice on a cold day. Kinda like the sun on your back.
John
Bones,
I haven't read the other replies yet so excuse any redundancy. I use two gel radiators in my 20 x 20 detached shop (6" insulated walls, 11' vaulted insulated ceiling, one large double glaze widow in the apex of the vault, Three exterior solid core oak doors, 9' steel insulated Overhead garage door. I'm in Lawrence, Kansas where we can get hot summers and cold winters. During the coldest, blustery days in winter (often below zero for days on end and windy), I can work in the shop in a T-shirt with the thermostats on the radiators set a little above medium. Originally, I told my heating contractor I wanted him to install heat and air. He, being an honest sort (Neihoff), told me to use space heating and window air because of the insulated properties of the shop. Right he was. I love the radiators. Their cheap, no circulating dust, no electric coils to ignite dust, ya da ya da. If you don't like them, you don't have a big investment if you chose to change.
Brad
Edited 10/17/2004 10:15 am ET by traveler
Edited 10/17/2004 10:17 am ET by traveler
Thanks for the note. I have used those for years. I had one in a basement in an old house I owned and it kept the room nice. I still have one and may give it a try. I still like the thought of gas heat with some type of thermostat. I live in the mountains of Va and it does get cold. One concern I have about using occasional heat is the potential impact to wood stored in the garage. I wonder if the constant heating and cooling would increase the problem of warpage. I would think a constant temperature would be better.
Sorry for the delayed response. The gel heaters have thermostats as well as timed on/off settings. They do a nice job of maintaining an even temperature. I've never had a problem with low humidity in the winter. Just opening and closing the door several times a day brings in humidity. I have not done so, but one could put a pan of water next to one of the heaters.
Brad
[email protected]
Just thought I would let you know that I dragged my old radiator heater out of the closet, and into the garage and turned it on. It was in the 40's last night. I went into the shop this morning, and it was very toasty. I picked the thing up a few years back at a local big lots (clearance store) for $30.00. I am going to go by look at getting a second one to see if they can do it. What can it hurt. If they stop doing the job this winter I can still have another heat source put in. I am very glad I spent the money insulating the garage (walls & door) when I built my house.
Edited 10/19/2004 11:01 am ET by bones
One nice thing about using an electric heat source is that it will be dryer than kerosene, propane, etc. I like my wood stove for that reason (and because it's cheap, LOL). The RH gets up above 70% in the shop when it's not heated in the wintertime.
Today, I picked up this heater at Sportsman's Warehouse. It has 3 settings, going up to 18,000BTU. Will use it in the house when the power goes out, but may use it in the shop to give the temp a boost until the wood stove takes over. It has a fan, and can be run off of either the small propane canisters or the BBQ-sized tanks. Also has a safety shut-off for carbon monoxide and a tip-over shut-off.
It was $10 cheaper at Sportsman Warehous than on Amazon.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Does the documentation indicate how fast it consumes those little bottles? Looks like a good little heater. It has been getting a lot cooler at night. the little oil radiator has done a pretty good job. Sure glad I spent the extra money to have the garage insulated when I built it. I don't think the little heater will be able to keep up, so that might just be the little helper I was looking for. I don't want kerosene. I used those for primary heat in the first house I owned. It cost less than my last car. Stunk something awful.
Hi bones, yep, there's a paragraph on consumption in the owner's manual. Depends, of course, on which of the 3 settings it's on (4K, 9K or 18K BTU). They state 3-12 hours on 2 1# cylinders. 50-220 hours on a BBQ cylinders. Since I have a BBQ tank, I'm going to get one of those fittings that enables you to refill a small cylinder from the bigger tank, cut down on cost and the waste of throwing away those bottles.
In a well-insulated space, I'd use it sparingly, not leaving it running for long periods of time, due to the CO problem. My shop is far from air tight, so it provides plenting of venting. It only requires an 18-sq-in vent area, so a cracked window would do, and of course it has the CO safety shut-off feature.
I'm not necessarily recommending it for your shop solution, but it sure is a handy little thing. Much safer and easier to use and transport than the tank-topper burner I used last year for spot-heating, and the fan makes it more effective too.
Do you have any windows in your shop? I know with the baseboard-type heaters, they recommend you put them beneath a window. I think it has something to do with the way hot and cold air rise and sink, and maybe providing a heat barrier in front of the window. Might be something to think about when it gets real cold.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Hi bones. I used the little heater last night for the first time, just to try it out and make sure everything was OK. It's very easy to use. I ran it on Medium and High for about 2 hours while I was working primarily at one counter, so I could take advantage of the radiant-heat effect.
The one thing you'd really have to be aware of, since your shop is so well-insulated, is the CO produced. My shop has plenty of leaks to provide venting. Hopefully, you've seen John's and Dennis' posts on the dark side of using propane. Tanks and canisters should be stored outside when not in use. My shop is detached and a good 50' from the house, so in the unlikely event that I blow it up, the house should be fairly unscathed, LOL.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
FG - Looks like a nice heater, I'm planning to install a wood (or coal) burning stove but was thinking about how to get the temp. up quickly in my new shop. Something like this would be good especially since I will be using the large gas bottles in the 'hot work' room. Have you had any problems with dust on the heating element??
Hi Losos. I just got my heater yesterday and haven't used it yet. Are you speaking of sawdust, specifically? It's a ceramic element. I guess if I had been sawing or routering, and noticed sawdust had settled on the element (while the unit wasn't on, of course) I would gently blast it off with compressed air, either a can or my compressor.
I'd like to make a suggestion re: your pending stove unit if I may. How 'bout a pellet stove? If I had had the $$, that's definitely the way I would have gone. A woodburning stove, which I got free except for the pipe, works great but has to be fed, and I'm very conscientious about burning hot and clean. A pellet stove feeds itself and burns hot and clean.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Jamie -
I have to agree with John with respect to having that heater (and the large gas jug) inside the shop. Off, let alone running. I unfortunately have to store my gas welding bottles indoors until I get the side "porch" roofed for the shop and it really makes me nervous having them in there. And they're much safer, in my opinion than the barbeque propane tanks. I take the welding stuff out of the shop when I'm doing anything in there, of course.
Don't mean to rain on your parade but .... be especially careful with that thing!
...........
From Beautiful Skagit Co. Wa.
Dennis
Hi Dennis and John -- there seems to be some confusion here, maybe? I don't use propane for my main heat source. I use my wood stove. There are occasions, however, when I would use it for an occasional jump-start on heat, or for a short time to provide radiant heat if I'm doing just a bit of work and don't want to build up a fire.
I got the little heater primarily for emergency heat in the house when the power goes out for more than a few hours in the winter. It can get down to 40* in our little house real quick!
I understand your concern about the danger of leaking propane. Storage is outside. When it comes to being afraid to use them at all though, that's where we part company. I believe if I check the fittings and keep the heater maintained as instructed, it's safer than getting in my car and driving on the highway.
Thanks for your concern -- I always appreciate it!
PS: It should be noted, I'm a whimp about being cold. Also, what gases are in welding tanks?
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Edited 10/29/2004 11:48 am ET by forestgirl
> ....Also, what gases are in welding tanks?
Acetylene & oxygen are the bad guys. Acetylene will self ignite at certain pressures in the presence of oxygen. Oxygen doesn't actually burn itself but supports combustion of anything else that does. And violently.
Argon and certain other inert gasses are used for MIG welding and don't present a fire problem but they do have to be stored securely to prvent damage to the valve end of the cylinder. I've heard stories but fortunately have never been witness to what happens to a gas cylinder when the valve gets broken off. Can you say "Rocket Propulsion"? (grin)
I figgered you were taking the necessary precautions with the propane thing but like John, I guess it's just in my nature to bring up the safety issues associated with such things. Folks who aren't as savvy about them might not realize the inherent dangers of these types of appliances............
From Beautiful Skagit Co. Wa.
Dennis
So there isn't a misunderstanding, unvented propane and kerosene heaters add moisture and fumes to the shop's air along with some really nasty byproducts from any glue and finishing fumes that get drawn into the units. Vented units have none of these problems although they will incinerate fine dust that settles on the heat exchangers, but electric units and woodstoves also have this problem.
Second point, it is highly illegal under fire code laws (and suicidally foolish in my opinion) to bring any propane tank bigger than the small disposables into a building. On a large tank, like the 20 pound barbecue size, if the valve breaks off, or the pressure relief pops open, or the rubber hose from the tank to the heater gets cut, a building leveling explosion could occur within a minute or two. I've been witness to the aftermath of gas explosions, they are amazingly destructive. Basically, pound for pound, flammable gas has the explosive power of dynamite.
I'm pointing this out because the little heater that Forestgirl is buying has an accessory rubber hose to connect it to a large tank. It is, by the way, illegal to use a rubber hose to feed the heater even if the tank is outside, any hookup in a building must be done with metal piping or code approved flexible line.
John W.
GOOD POINT. I set a 125 gal tank outside by the propane company and had them hook up and start the heater I bought. Good thing I did because I'm not a heating specialist and the heater I bought had a cracked heat exchanger that I would not have recognized. I have a detector in my garage but the added precaution of a pro helped me. I bought a new heater and it will be delivered and hooked up by a pro next week. Will let you know how it goes.
tony
We already have enough youth, how about a fountain of smarts.
Hi Losos, a little update and couple new thoughts here. I used the heater for a couple of hours last night. It worked quite well, providing heat in a counter area I was working in. As far as using it to get the temp up quickly in your shop, I'm not sure it would be effective. It's only 18,000 BTU maximum. Of course, it depends on how big your shop is and how well insulated, but I'm not optimistic.
Before I got the wood stove, I used a fan-forced propane torpedo-type heater to get the temp up in the shop. It was very noisy, but it wouldd take the edge of the cold in a fairly short period of time. Can't remember how many BTUs it produced, but it was at least twice that of my new heater.
Another thing I was reminded of last night -- the cylinders will ice up as the pressure drops in them, especially if the ambient temp is in the 40's. With a BBQ tank that will proceed more slowly, and with bigger tanks probably not at all.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
FG - Thanks for the tip about pellet burning stoves, I will talk to my heating supplier about this, I know they are made here by at least one manufacturer. When you say they don't need 'feeding' like a wood burner I assume you mean they will run for let's say 24 hrs. without top up. Is that correct? or do they have a huge reservoir on top which feeds the pellets until it's empty? My shop (When it's finished) will be about 30 x 36 ft. so a propane heater would have to be quite big I guess. Perhaps I will wait until I see how the main stove copes before proceeding.
Losos -
Jamie most likely knows more about pellet stoves than I do but I do know they require electrical power for operation. They hold a supply of the pellets which are fed to the burning chamber by a small auger. In turn there's also a fan which circulates the heat and (I think) one that feeds the burning chamber to force a higher combustion temp. Similar to a forge I guess.
The point being, if you decide to go pellet stove which isn't a bad idea, just remember that it will need the electrical power source.
...........
From Beautiful Skagit Co. Wa.
Dennis
Dennis easily outpaced my knowledge about pellet stoves! I knew that they work automatically, but wouldn't have had the detail about the auger.
Pellet stoves burn very, very efficiently, you don't have to buy or cut-and-stack piles of firewood for them, and the bags of fuel are, at least in my area, carried by every grocery store and hardware store around, in bags about the size of a bag of grain or fertilizer. I think you would get a much more consistent heat output with much, much less time and energy on your part with a pellet stove.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
> ....I think you would get a much more consistent heat output with much, much less time and energy on your part with a pellet stove.
Until the power goes off! Long live my little Jotul wood cookstove!! (grin)
But, with no power few of us will be in the shop anyway. 'Cept those with water or steam powered single spindle shops. hehee.
...........
From Beautiful Skagit Co. Wa.
Dennis
I guess it would be easy enough to get a little back-up system. Twelve volt battery with an inverter, maybe? But, like you say, only the died-in-the-wool traditionalists would even be working with no power.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
You better have a room full of batteries! (grin). Inverters are not all that effecient and battery drain is pretty fast from what I understand. Plus you'll need deep cycle RV or marine type batteries = mass $$$.
Best bet would be to install a steam powered generating system using waste heat from the boiler to heat the shop! (grin).
(don't think I haven't considered it!!)
...........
From Beautiful Skagit Co. Wa.
Dennis
Bones, I live in Texas near Dallas so the winters are pretty mild. When I built my shop, 24'x36', I used a unit from a telecommunications repeater hut. It was donated by a friend in the business. Although it was used it had regular maintenance. I have been using it for 10 years now with no problems.The nice part about it is that it mounts to the outside of the building so I don't lose any iside space. Also it is a cobination heating/cooling unit. So not only is it warm in the winter it's cool on those hot Texas days. You might find a good used unit in your area.
Depending on your heat load, I would look at a self contained heat pump unit. I had one installed (2 ton?)and it's adequate for my 2600 SF, cellulose insulated, 2X6 wall shop in NW Ark. It does get cold here.
Bob
I have a 2-1/2 car garage that I heat with a Williams wall natural gas heater, 30,000 BTU input. It is vented to the outside and has an air intake from the outside so no air is taken from the shop area for combustion. Actually the exhaust flue through the wall has a pipe inside a pipe. One expells the exhaust and the other provides the air intake. Only one hole to make in the side of the garage, easy to install. Purchased an optional fan to increase efficiency. Have kept the garage at 65 degrees F. when the wind chill outside was 45 below zero. No dust can get to the burning chamber. Only have to blow the dust off the heating elements every couple of weeks. It has been in use for 10 years now. Cost about $300.00 in 1994.
Bones -
The oil filled radiators are real energy hogs. At least that's been my experience. We use our small (22') motor home as a bedroom while we're remodeling our house. Last winter our electrical bills were much higher than we had anticipated. Since all the other big energy using appliances, boiler, hot water heating, cooking, are gas, the only thing I could figure was the added cost of running this heater.
I'm not sure how effective they'd be in a large space, either. They are safe, not even overly hot to the touch, and very convenient for spot heat occasionally but just thought I might mention the energy useage aspect.
From Beautiful Skagit Co. Wa.
Dennis
I have a shop, framed off and insulated, in my garage. Five years ago I installed a radiant heater I purchased at Graingers. I interlocked it with a thermostat and a VERY small fan at the far end of the room to expell any exhaust smell.
At first I fueled it with Propane, but when natural gas became available I switched over.
The system works like a charm. I set the thermostat at 55 and that is plenty warm. No condensation, no freezing, just comfort.The only issue involves ceiling height. They can't be too close to the floor.
Jerry
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=41987&item=5927728747&rd=1
I posted this link once but it must not have taken. This is the exact heater I got from another auction that this person had. It is really only a 25,000 btu heater and have notified her of the discrepency. I am heating a 24 x 24 shop with this in about a week. Just picked it up last Sunday and the propane tank wont come till next Monday. Will let you know how it works.
We already have enough youth, how about a fountain of smarts.
I live in Canada and winters can be a real problem. My shop is a converted garage that was already here when I bought my home. As a side note, I think the guy that built it used an 'electricians level' (my Dad's {retired building inspector} favourite reason for things that are not level or plumb) cause the wall is out 3 inches in twenty feet and I have to nail wheeled tools to the floor or they end up outside at the bottom of the alley...
I orgianlly installed a 120k BTU natural gas overhead heater, but the bills almost doubled my heating costs. In the end I bought a decent quality airtight woodstove. There's a few benifits to this for me;
1/ I use up a lot of waste cutoffs
2/ No forced air kicking up sawdust storms
3/ The serenity of a crackling fire (I'm thinking I should get a pipe and a coffee perculator to go with it)
I bought some steel studs, some 3/8" osb and some ridgid insulation. I frame my garage door opening over on the outside, stuff the insulation in and cover the whole works with the OSB. This year I also installed a man door so I could raise my garage door and still get materials inside. I made a tool box and put all my glues, water based paints and anything I didn't want to freeze in it and I take the whole works inside when I'm done working.
Applying finishes takes a little pre planning, but in the end I'm happy. Now if I could just get the floor leveled...
I have a couple of these guys hanging in my shop: http://www.northerntool.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=6970&productId=595&R=595
I used to use some unvented propane heaters, but was very unhappy with the the amount of moisture they would dump into the air. Also, I'd get a little dizzy when they were on, which I figured was not a good sign. ;)
Not a problem with the electric heaters. Although I live where it usually doesn't get very cold (western OR), I don't use the shop full time (hobby use), and electricity is cheaper here than it is in alot of locations. In other circumstances, I'd probably go with a vented propane heater, or a woodstove.
I use the HotDawg from Modine. Since the shop is detacted, I use propane tanks. It heats up fast and was easy to install. I have no regrets.
I have a shop that is 16 x 24 with 8' ceilings. I bought an Empire 35,000 BTU direct vent (through the wall) natural gas heater. I live in Mass and it can get cold. I have never had any problem heating my shop with this type unit. It works great. You cannot go wrong with a direct vent heater.
There are more old drunkards than old doctors. Ben Franklin
Down here in sunny south Texas I use a 5 gallon propane can with a infrared heater on top. Was a cold winter last year as I went through 4 cans of propane! Normally just takes two cans.
PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)
PlaneWood
http://www.garageheater.com
I live in Eastern Idaho where the winters are cold. I installed a wood stove about a month ago in my 3 stall garage. It works extremely well and I love the feel of radiant heat. I burn free wood I scavage from framers who are building new homes in the area. I bought the wood stove for $20 from a guy who just wanted to get rid of it. The double wall chimney was the major cost. I can't think of a better way to heat my shop.
TJ,
If you are using mainly scavanged building materials I suggest you clean your chimney more often than the recommended norm. That stuff can contain much more creosote than common fuel woods.
I don't know where you live, but up here in NH I heat my shop with a woodstove that is located downstairs in m my garage. I installed a plenum (sheet metal box) on top of the stove to collect heat, then ran an insulated flexible, duct up to my second-story woodshop. and installed a 6" fan in the wall up in the woodshop, to draw the heat.
My woodshop is 16' x 16' and is on the second floor. It is insulated w/6 1/4" of pink and the walls are all drywalled w/ 1/2" drywall. The garage is also insulated and the ceiling is covered with w/3/4" insulated Homosote board on the ceiling.
Right now it's -25 outside and the temp in my shop is 65! There's no direct flame exposed to potential sawdust explosions. Also, if I need to work on the vehicles, the garage is TOASTY! The wife likes that whe she's makin Christmas wreeths too!
Double duty Man!
When it really get's COLD, I open the downstairs door and more heat rises!
LOL, Rob
Those of you who use wood stoves; What about insurance? I have an old fisher stove I want to use in my shop, but was told by the insurance agent that the stove has to be an "approved" stove, and that I can find out if it is approved by calling the manufacturer. So, I want to know, do you all have "approved stoves", or is there some other way to insure using an older stove?
We're pretty much taking our chances with ours. The stove was given to us, it's not real old but I have no idea if it's "approved." I printed out a bunch of code stuff from the internet on installing the pipe, and my hubby got more info from the outfit he bought the pipe, insulated box and "bonnet" from. We just did the best we could and I'm careful about the way I use it. The fact that it's a detached garage gives me some comfort I guess.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
An addendum to my earlier post -- Have you priced out what it's going to cost you for the chimney pipe, all properly insulated, roof insert, all that stuff? You may find that you can buy a window-mounted heat-pump unit for not much more, it'd be safer and no worries about insurance. We made the shortest run we could safely do on ours, and I think the chimney ended up costing over $400.I don't have a link on this computer, but they've been mentioned in a couple of threads here at Knots.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
A warm shop is a good way to beat cabin feva in Nh in the winter.yessa. I have a 750 sq ft shop seperate from my house. I only heat about 600 ft sq and I do it with a used Miller forced hot air furnace ( puts out 60,000 btu's) and an airtight wood stove. the shop is old.and I mean old! it was once a guys house that was built in about 1730 and moved to this site sometime before 1870 so it lacks tightness even though the 600 ft sq is insulated. Takes a while to get it warm when the outside temp is -10 but it maintains 55-60 with no plroblem. When the air tight gets up and going the miller hardly comes on. Bought the stove for $50 and the furnace for $300 installedWicked Decent Woodworks
Rochester NH
" If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"
The Shop already has a brick chimney with a flue, and the guy I got the stove from gave me all the pipe that came out of the house with the stove for free.
BUT...
I found out last night from my ins. agent that it is in fact ILLEGAL to use a solid fuel heat source in an outbuilding in WI. Nice, huh. If I owned the property, I probably would just "fly under the radar", but we are renting this place, and I don't want to risk upsetting my little old landlady. So, my only options are propane (no nat. gas service out here) and electric.
It just really chaps my behind to know I've got this great old stove for free, and I have to go out and spend $600 on a propane heater if I want to work in my shop between October and April.
Tony
What a drag! What types of propane heater are you looking at?forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
I really like the Modine Hot Dawg. If anyone knows of other good, low cost models, I'd love to hear about it. At this point I'll take anything that's safe and a deal. I'm going to keep an eye out at auctions, and such.
I am moving into the shop this week, and since I had to pack everything up to move I haven't been able to do any actual woodworking yet this winter! I'll have to have a propane line run underground from the house tank anyway, so it looks like It's going to be me and the wal-mart special oil radiator until the ground thaws in the spring.
Tony
do propane radiant heaters present the same exhaust/moisture problems as flame heaters?
"do propane radiant heaters present the same exhaust/moisture problems as flame heaters?" I really don't know the answer to that one. Moisture was the first thing I thought of when you said "propane" but my hunch is that it would be much less of a problem with a radiant heater. I'm clueless about the possible exhaust complications. Someone here will know, though.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Radiant tube heaters that use outside air and exhaust to the outside pose no moisture threat. I would avoid anything that exhausts combustion products inside the shop.Here is only one brand of radiant tube propane heater, there are others.http://site.inetba.com/infraredproductssupply/superiorradiant.htmlTom
Woodhoarder,Given what you've already told us of your electrical service, in another thread, I would definitly explore the propane option over electric heat. You aren't likely to have the amperage available to work in the shop and heat it at the same time.Tom
My thoughts exactly. Besides, electricity's a bit pricey here in WI. It' bad enough I won't be able to use the wood stove, I can get all the free firewood I want.
I heat a two car garage (no cars, never!) with a $175 boxwood heater. You're right on with the chimney price - about $400 for a good safe chimney. Single wall to the pass through, insulated double wall through the roof, and double wall to the weather cap.The house is heated with a fireplace insert. I believe in overkill when it comes to housefires, so I have a transition from the insert to a double wall stainless steel flue pipe inside the old tile flue. One house fire, and a good part of a lifetime's woodworking goes up in smoke!I have ducts and registers all over the house and some really cool fan arrangements to distribute heat. We heat about 1,000 sq ft out of 1500. If we had one of those new 4000 sq ft yuppie houses, we'd need three or four wood stoves and 12 cords a year!
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