Men and Forestgirl:
I know this would probably be better in the Fine Homebuilding forum, but would appreciate your opinion. We are replacing our first floor with hardwood flooring.
The installer wants to know what finish we want. What is the current trend and what is the right finish? I don’t want full gloss for certain. Thanks.
The installer is pushing the satin finish – says it doesn’t show scratches as easily.
Replies
He's right robbie. Lower sheens don't show marks as easily as higher sheens. The final choice of course is yours. Slainte.
The higher the gloss the harder and more durable the finish. If you were planning on three coats, I'd put two coats of gloss and the final coat whatever sheen you prefer. Lightly sand between coats and use a lambswool applicator.
There are more old drunkards than old doctors. Ben Franklin
He also said they are planning to use a water based finish - I think polyurethane-based. sound right?
Bob
Edited 6/11/2004 3:47 pm ET by Robbie
I had a front entryway done with water-based "poly" three years ago; it has held up fine. My impression is that it is not quite as abrasion-resistant as hard, solvent-based interior poly, but more than adequate anyway.
Researching this at the time, I found out that there is a huge variation between manufacturers and product lines with water-based products, and almost none of it has anything to do with what they call things. Water-based "lacquer," "varnish," "polyurethane," "acrylic," and even "danish oil" (which wins as the head-scratcher of the bunch...) are all out there, and other than "acrylic," it seems that none of them are terribly indicative of what they are actually made of.
It comes down to trusting the installer--a contract with an explicit waranty clause and remedy helped me a lot with the "trust" part. I do remember asking about refinishing, and the answer was the same as solvent poly--if it ever comes to that, it all has to come off first anyway
Good luck, and if it works out, see if you can snag a partial can. You are probably paying for it anyway, and it is not a bad finish for casual furniture that will need to take a moderate to heavy beating (kid's dresser, etc.).
/jvs
He's right about scratches. Glossier is usually more formal. Looks good on dark stains in a library, formal dining or formal sitting room.
I thought that waterbase is more durable, I could be wrong. I know that water base is very difficult to spot repair.
Mike
I live in an old neighboorhood that has enjoyed an intense rennovation renaissance over the past 20 years. I have worked in and built cabinets for a lot of these high end houses; I always made it a point to find out what the floor finishers were using, and then over time, have been able to see how those finishes held up. Moreover, I have done all the floor work in my own houses, and have assisted others more times than I care to remember.
So here's what I have learned:
1) Avoid water based finishes of any kind. Floor finishers love this stuff, and will push it relentlessly -- but that's mainly because it is easy to apply, and they can do 3 coats in a single day. The technology will get there some day, but right now, there is no water based finish that is as durable and abrasion resistant as a oil based polyurethane.
2) Satin or semi-gloss poly is not as durable as high gloss. But if you prefer the sheen of the former, do as post #3 suggests -- 2 coats of high gloss, followed by a final coat of satin (or semi-gloss).
3) Once the first coat is down, it is not necessary (for adhesion) to sand before you apply the second coat, if done within about 12 hours. Read the directions. This only works if you start with a bare floor that is scrupulously clean -- no dust, wiped with paint thinner. Otherwise, the dust nibs will give you a rough surface.
I will time things so I can put down the first coat in the morning, and apply the second coat at night. The next day, I will do a light sanding or screening of the second coat, wipe up the dust, and apply the third coat toward the end of the day.
4) To keep your floor in top condition you should screen and reapply a coat of poly before the existing finish shows obvious signs of wear. This process can go on indefinitely, and will save you the trouble and expense of sanding all the way back to bare wood.
5) Never, ever wax your floors. And don't clean them with anything mixed with water. Ask your flooring person, or go to Home Depot and buy "Hardwood Floor Cleaner". I first found out about this stuff at a floor supply distributor, but the HD product is cheaper and just as good. You just spritz it on the floor surface, and go over it with a special flat mop with a cover on it (very inexpensive, and also sold at HD).
Hope all of this helps.
what day matters to you?
If you only care about the day it is finished by all means go for the semi gloss.. it looks less plastic and gives the impression of "value"
If you want a finish that looks great after years then use a high gloss. It will have developed those little scratches and yet still look nice.
If on the other hand you'd like the Rolls Royce of finishes have them do a laqure finish followed monthly by a deep waxing with a heavy wax..
Nothing in the world can imitate that finish...
Waterlox is my finish of choice. Waterbased looks like waterbased. Slightly cloudy, adhesion problems, critical about recoating times, need highly toxic crosslinkers. Nothing matches the look of oil-based and waterlox is the best. Its been around nearly a hundred years. It was durable enough for gym floors and used to be called gym floor finish. The standard "sealer/finish" is more glossy than semi-gloss but not full gloss. They have a high gloss product for that. Satin or semi show wear patterns more than a gloss finish. They burnish to a more glossy finish over time and you have to recoat more often. Only issue is drying time. A day between coats (3 minimum and 4 or 5 is better). A generous week before any traffic or furniture. Only stocking feet before that. Oil poly dries faster but doen not look as nice. Waterlox can be recoated at any time for maintenance without any prep so long as you didn't wax it. Don't use waterbased. Not as much smell and maybe easier for the installer but it really does not look nice. It shows sanding scratches more and scratches more easily than oil. Never looks any better than the day it was applied. Requires sanding to recoat later. Oil can improve with age if you buff it.
Satin finish
Scratches and dust are far less obvious than on a gloss finish. With Oil-Modified Urethane, the satin agent makes the finished surface less abrasion resistant than gloss but there is no difference in hardness when water-base is used. The first two coats should be gloss anyway, as multiple satin coats give a 'muddy' look to the floor.
One additional drawback with gloss finishes is that lighting, windows, etc., are reflected from the surface, making it difficult to actually see the timber itself.
The best finish aesthetically is a penetrative oil but it has the major disadvantage that it is unsuitable for wet areas and should only be used where fitted carpet could safely be installed.
Water-base formulations are now so advanced that they are equal, or superior to, oil-based for wear-resistance and they have the advantage of being non-toxic, odor-free and easily repaired and re-coated. They do not bring out the color and figure as well as oil-based unfortunately.
IanDG
Robbie,
I've finished a bunch of wood floors in my two houses. Most recently about 4,000 SF of oak and fir. Original wood in an 1896 Victorian.
Based on my experience minimum 2 coats of glossy followed by at least 2 coats of semi gloss. I use a painting pad on a broom stick so I don't have to bend down. Sand lightly between coats with 220 with a palm sander, vacuum and tack cloth.
Had a new t & g oak floor put down in the kitchen. 4 coats glossy 2 coats semi. A contractor doing some other work thought is was prefinished flooring.
I use water based poly because I can get 3 coats on in a day. Use the absolutely best quality poly you can find.
Put some carpets down and don't ever walk on it and it will stay looking new for decades.
ASK
I finished my floors 2 years ago and recommend the street shoe water based poly from basic coatings. I also used the cheap poly from HD and i don't recommend it. I was able to put down the poly easy, but i did get bubbles in the finish. The street shoe has held up well with kids riding tricycles and wagons on it. I used 2 coats of high gloss with a coat of semi-gloss and a coat of satin to finish. I would probably let the professionals lay down the polyurethane, but sanding can be done by you to save on the costs. I moved furniture in 2 days after applying last coat and have not found any problems. Street-shoe is great stuff, but has a catalyst you add to poly, which only gives you 24 hours to put it down. I can not stress how much you need to vacuum walls, floor, and all horizontal surfaces before laying down finish. After final sanding, I went over the floor with a old t-shirt and turpentine ( amazing what a shop-vac with hepa filter still leaves behind). Take your time and do it right. Good luck.
The main difference between gloss and satin is that satin and semi-gloss varnishes have flocculents added to the varnish for the purpose of deflecting light and make the finish look duller than gloss. The down side is that flocculants make the varnish somewhat softer than a gloss varnish. And a soft top coat is more suseptible to scratching. I use satin varnish as the first and second coats and the final top coat is gloss. That way, you do get the most of effects of a satin finish - that is, there is light reflection and the floor looks less glossy, even with a gloss top coat. Subjectively, the appearance is more semi-gloss than satin.
BTW, foam rollers, made for painting and not leaving roller marks, are excellent for applying floor varnish.
Joseph
I refinished the existing red oak floors in our house last year, and at the same time installed several rooms of new floors (long story, goes back to when we bought the house).
I used semi-gloss, it just looks nicer IMO. Insofar as scratches... dogs, shoes in the house, children, and finally, my messy self later and I don't see any scratches.
Did a lot of research and went water based, would do it again in a heartbeat. I used Bonakemi's Mega finish (2 coats) over their sealer product.
Water soluable finishes are very nice ... and modern floor varnishes are also great. I've done many floors and have used both. The biggest difference for most homeowners is the appearance. Traditional varnish has the traditional color associated with wood floors. Water based products tend to be clear and without color and if the homeowner expects the amber toned appearance they will be disappointed. When necessary, I've used an amber toned first coat and then finished with the regular clear top coats. Some water based products rely on a toned sanding sealer as the way to achieve the amber floor look. Sample the various finishes on scrap flooring for comparison. Some like the clear no-color look and others want color ... personal choice! Finally, (maybe) water based finishes do offer a very durable surface, And depending who you talk to, they have improved to the point they are perhaps more scratch resistant than varnish. On the other hand, varnished floors are easier to touch-up when scratched.
J
The number one advice I can give you is some that was given to me years ago, when I asked a similar question.
Follow the advice of your floor installer. Use products he is comfortable with. There are lots of products out there but giving a good product to an installer that is not familar with it will yield poor results.
If your installer says satin, then go with satin.
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
funny, I always thought the installer works for the customer. And if the installer isn't at the top of the curve, or never bothered to expand their knowledge base?
The installers job is to provide objective information, not to tell the customer what they are going to get.
I'm sorry for flaming you on this, but telling someone to just go with what the installer say is not only misguided, but it totally misses the point of paying a pro to do a job.
but telling someone to just go with what the installer say is not only misguided, but it totally misses the point of paying a pro to do a job.
So what would you recommend the client to do? -- research the various finishes available and their suitability for the site conditions, carry out comparison tests for abrasion resistance, toxicity and odor, consider the effects of alternative finishes on timber color and figure? --- or just select, using reputation and references, a reputable installer and trust his advice?
IanDG
I am a contractor. If a customer told me exactly what he wanted and I was unfamiliar with the product and the installation of the same and furthermore it went against my practice and experience, I would probably walk away from the job. Nuff said. I want a happy customer and if I can't install the product in the right way, I turn the work down.
I received that advice from a floor installer sub that I used years ago, and on remodels now tell the customer exactly what I told the poster.
"Don't try to pretend you know what you are doing or what you want. We have a professional installer that has done thousands of floors. He doesn't want a callback and wants referrals. It is his strong recommendation that you use ______________ floor finish in a (pick one) oil/water base with a (pick one)satin/gloss finish." I have used him hundreds of times and have seen the results. I do not want to be in a position of ordering my installer to do something he is very uncomfortable with, and therefore I strongly concur with his recommendation. I invite you to see homes which we did ___ years ago and look at his work."
By the way, my installer uses Traffic Water Based Semi-Gloss. Oil based takes way too long to cure, picks up dust nibs while curing, and yes we can install about 2 coats per day. We like to use 4 coats, sometimes 5 on high traffic areas.
I don't know whether oil is harder than water based, and indeed the flooring council has not made any pronouncements or studies on that issue. The Traffic brand has a catalyst which is added to the finish and basicaly sets up in about 2 hours. It is good stuff, but I can't say that it is better than another brand. My understanding is that they are all about the same, but installer get used to the brands and know how they set up, cure, sand, and buff, which makes for a better installation. Again, it is up to the installer.
See the flooring BBS and post a question there:
http://www.floormasters.com/wwwboard/wwwboard.html
Regards,
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
and if the client tells you that they want semi-gloss... you're going to tell them "no, you need satin"?
and if the client says "yeah, I'd like a finish that doesn't have any voc's cuz we believe in doing our part to save the planet, but we would also like a finish that doesn't look like a coat of plastic has been spread over our floors", you are going to say "great, we use Traffic and it's waterborne so no voc's" when Mega would be a better fit for the second half of their requirements?
your approach is like a house painter saying "sorry, we only do reds, you're gonna have to call someone else for the white paints"... or "sorry we only do trim work, walls are a different technique and luster". The reason why there is such a wide range of floor finish products available is because they are engineered for different tastes and different applications.
Yeah, take a look at the floormasters forum, you'll find that the pros are always expanding their envelope, working with new products, techniques, and tools. The average consumer has a much more level playing field with regard to access to product information, if you are not at least at their level then you are suboptimizing your relationship with your client. Maybe it's just the part of the world I live in, the Bay Area, but people here who are hiring contractors are displaying a high degree of knowledge about the options that are available and not content to just do whatever the contractor/engineer/architect says to do. The relationships are much more collaborative than in the past, personally I think this is a great thing.
Edited 6/18/2004 1:20 pm ET by Jeff
You are absolutely right. I know you wanted to hear that.
I won't do a job with products I don't like, nor installation methods that I haven't done. There are plenty of guys out there who will try something absolutely new and if they screw up a floor, well, thats their problem. They are going to be stripping it, not me.
Have a nice day. :-)
Regards,
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
I won't do a job with products I don't like, nor installation methods that I haven't done.If it's a question of aesthetics, I give the client the information and let him decide -- if it's technical then it's my decision because I am the one giving the warranty.
IanDG
I agree. Whether one paints the wall red or blue is up to the client. Whether he wants acrylic on the trim or soft latex is up to me.
Regards,
Boris
"Sir, I may be drunk, but you're crazy, and I'll be sober tomorrow" -- WC Fields, "Its a Gift" 1934
Semi-gloss, hands down.
We had our floors (white oak) redone, and the first time it was with satin finish. Big mistake. The floors looked cloudy and unappealing. I redid them with semi-gloss and they are much, much nicer now.
To redo the floors, they were first cleaned, then washed/wiped with mineral spirits. Varathane semigloss was applied and allowed to dry. I recommend avoiding the water-based finishes, they are not as good.
When we had our floors redone, we used it as an excuse to go on a vacation. We left the contractor a key and came back after five days, avoiding the dust and (most of) the fumes.
Good luck with whatever you choose,
Paul in TF
https://home.comcast.net/~paulchapko
I went on vacation, came back and the floors were down, but unfinished. My family and I are in a hotel right now and the kids are driving Dawn nuts.
I picked up on the advice here. Use Oil base - first two coats with gloss and the last coat will be satin. They now have it stained and a first coat of gloss on. Floor looks great so far.
How long after the final coat before we can move furniture back onto it?
The longer you can wait, the better. I would wait a minimum of three days, but see what the manufacturer says.
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