I was trying to flatten a q.s. white oak table top with a #7 jointerplane and even though I was working with the grain the best as possible , as well as taking light cuts with a sharp blade, I had some bad tearout. I was wondering if I purchased a # 4 1/2 smoothing plane would this solve my handplaning troubles ?
Was I using the wrong type of plane?
Any advice would be appreciated
Replies
Preparation is critical
Howdy Mick,
Well first I have a few questions for you so I / We can begin to narrow down the problems ( there may be a combination of causes of the tear out.
So
1. What brand and style of #7 plane are you using ?
Bevel down ? or Bevel up etc.?
2. How do you know the blade is sharp ? What method of test do you use ? That may sound silly but humor me.
3. How was the surface prepared before beginning to plane it ? For example :
Fresh off the band saw
Belt sanded
Power planer / thicknesser or power jointer
PS: I am just dying to show off my new hand plane but have taken no photos yet and I think we should work with what you have now but this new baby of mine could not be better for planing the oak.
To the old hands here a clue . . .
Larry found time to make a batch of finish planes and so after much anticipation and abated breath I am the proud and humble owner of the pinnacle of the plane maker's art.
It is SWEET !
So much subtle yet practical detail and so perfectly executed. Perfect meaning it is obvious care and love for the final product were paramount from beginning to end. (and I am one heck of a critical and picky person)
Thank You Larry Williams of Old Street Tools
Nope, for now at least I would hold off getting such a wide finish plane. Trust me on that one. For the harder hard woods such as oak think narrower for the finish plane.
I once thought that a large surface must dictate a wider finish plane but found that the hardness of the wood also dictates the width of the blade.
I think the 4 1/2 may be at its best on softer friendlier wood such as mahogany and walnut with out much figure etc.
Hand planing article - back bevel
I am definitely no expert, but this article might help. Chris Gochnor back beveled his plane blade.
https://www.finewoodworking.com/FWNPDF/011218086.pdf
thanks i read it , and will try it. I had back beveled a small block plane i have just to be able to quickly put an edge on it and it worked well.
kind of scared now to try flattening the next table top / panel , i wrecked this top , but i chalk it up to learning, and if it costs me 10,000 bucks in lumber i am going to learn how to plane .
thanks much
see you
Ah, as Sherlock Holmes says : Finally . . . facts to work with
You can not back bevel a bevel up so forget that.
You can steepen the angle by adding a secondary bevel on the top, bevel that is up. That will help. Probably.
Better to test for sharp on end grain that way if the back of the blade is not flat it will show up. If the edge is dubbed from stropping or poor sharpening practices it will show up . . .
by not cutting the end grain easily. I can sharpen a blade that will cut hair like a scary Samuari sword but will be worthless when put in a hand plane because the facets of the blade are all rounded over.
Please , please , please practice planing on scrap of the same wood for the table. Only when you have consistent success then work your table. The learning period can take quite a long time unless you can find someone to stand there and do it all for you. It is hard to see what you are doing wrong or need to change if you have never seen it before.
I know people will find this next comment hard to swallow but . . . are you ready ? . . . gird your loins . . .
. . . I find that a closely set opening or even a sort of close opening to be practically irrelevant if the blade geometry is right for the wood you are cutting and there has been no short cuts taken in sharpening the edge.
For me that is one way I KNOW when the bed angle, the sharpening angle and the sharpness of the edge are right.
No tear out even with a gap of like a sixteenth of an inch or even more in the throat.
Ok planing cross grain or at a steep diagonal to hog off wood you are bound to get some tear out but planing with the grain or even against the grain with the right geometry there should be no tear out.
I am not a big fan of jointer planes for leveling table tops. I have both bevel down and bevel up 7 1/2 s and can make them both work on this wood you have but shorter planes are lighter and have advantages for leveling.
The big jointers are good for "jointing" edges of boards. Still I can do a better job with a shorter plane.
Practice a lot with various angles (probably 40° to 45° sharpening angle will do it ) but keep the back totally flat, you can go too steep on the bevel and you will get great results the only draw back is it takes more effort to push the plane through the wood.
Another thought just came to mind. That plane has a very wide blade and if you have no camber (curve) to the edge it will dull, ride high on the wood (as opposed to let the edge get down in the wood and cut) and you will then advance the blade to compensate because it isn't cutting much off, push hard and bingo tear out from the plane tottering on the blade.
So in short try these :
Back of blade flat, flat (can take a lot of effort and time but do it )
Camber ( curve) the edge of the blade
Sharpen the edge to 40° using a jig
Use several grits to get to sharp; at least 300, 1000, 4000, 6000
Test for sharp on end grain with the back of blade flat on the end grain (not in the plane).
Take those and call me in the morning. Or next week etc.
It is such an important thing to get this right and to learn to sharpen and about edge geometry in general. It can make all the difference even when using power tools if you get this hand tool thing down.
I am getting kind of shot now so if you want articals to read let me know and I will post some FWW back issues etc.
In fact here are two extremely important articles
https://www.finewoodworking.com/SkillsAnd...
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesPDF.aspx?id=2091
The second one talks about how subtleties in the plane and blade make a difference
Thanks much.
Very interesting articles. I am off to buy a 8000 grit waterstone and a diamond plate to flatten the stones i have (1000 and 4000). Does it pay to buy a 300?
I also have a LN # 5 and a low angle block plane. Maybe the # 5 would be a better choice to flatten tops? The low angle for finish type work , or buy say a #4 smoother for that?
To round the plane iron just apply pressure to the edges of the plane iron while it is in the jig correct?
From what i have read in the past , handplaning gives the best finish , and even though i am new to this i am trying to make things of real beauty.
Sounds like I have to spend more time experimenting / practicing.
Thanks man.
Or you could get one of the Old Street Tool finish Planes
but that is a whole new world to learn how to set the depth of cut and alignment of the blade with a little hammer. The bed angle is just right though without having to buy the high angle frog.
> diamond plate to flatten the stones<
>Does it pay to buy a 300?<
Most definitely. Maybe more important than the finer stones. Or you can use a power grinder or belt sander instead of the 300.
I use my DMT coarse / extra coarse 10 inch diamond stone/plate it is 220 on one side and 320 on the other, or there abouts.
It is critical to cut back the worn area on the very cutting edge of the blade where it has worn microscopically. This area is very small but it must be removed. It takes just for ever with a 1000 stone, some times, depending on the hardness of your blade and how worn the edge has gotten. Some times you need to reshape the edge or add or remove the curvature/camber and then it is very useful as well. In fact I found I like the 100 grit Shapton for that work so a 300 is not too coarse.
Yep unless you cut the dulled edge back to sharp first and then refine the surfaces with the finer stones you aren't really sharpening but just making the bevels of the blade look pretty while the edge remains dull.
Of course one can cheat when free handing and keep steepening the angle while using the finer stone and get the blade to cut again, sort of, but the optimal geometry and flatness of the back are lost.
>#5 or bevel up ?<
Well there one opens up a whole can of worms to fight over.
Ultimately the #5 bevel down is the best choice because it can cut off more wood faster and not burnish the surface of the wood.
However
it is best if the bed angle is steeper than the 45 ° standard used. So then as was mentioned earlier a back bevel is used to make up for not having a steeper bed angle. Back bevels are a pain in the ace to maintain/sharpen so the bevel up starts to look pretty good because it is quicker to sharpen and get back to service. The radiused camber is kind of less effective on a bevel up so that is a trade off as well.
>To round the plane iron just apply pressure to the edges of the plane iron while it is in the jig correct?<
Yes or you can grind it that way with a power grinder. Much faster but be careful and don't even get the blade hot. Keep dipping it in water and go easy on the pressure against the stone wheel. Always , whether shaping the radius/camber or coarse sharpening the blade.
>time experimenting / practicing.<
I call that time "playing scales" like when learning to play a musical instrument or perfecting the subtleties of playing one.
It can be enjoyable if you don't get impatient about getting to your furniture projects.
But for me the perfection of the process is nearly as fascinating to me as the furniture.
>low angle block plane< to use as a finish plane.
Well they work pretty well for that because they are so controllable. The problem is that the lack of handles to really drive the plane with over a large area can wear out your hands and cause your fingers to literally lock up.
One exception is the Varitas small block plane
http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=32685&cat=1,41182
which is offered with optional handles.
http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=41715&cat=1,41182
It is about like using a #3 with larger , full size , handles. I am not recommending some body go out and buy one of these to do a whole table with but for smaller projects it can be a great combination.
For a table size finish plane IN OAK AND OTHER HARDER HARD WOODS maybe the #5 with the steep frog or a #4 with a steep frog.
What I use and just love is this plane but it can be a bit over kill and not as fast to cut as a bevel down in the softer woods so you need to decide if you will work primarily softer woods or harder. I work some of the hardest so I went with this guy ( a freekin' brilliant plane for the way I work ).
http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=51870&cat=1,41182,52515
Although the small finish plane may have been even a better choice for me.
As you can see I like to talk about this stuff. I get a bit long winded.
I hope the stone buying expedition went well.
I was checking out this plane...
http://www.lie-nielsen.com/catalog.php?grp=1247
seems similiar to the one in the link you sent.
Maybe the toothed blade would be nice to help avoid tearout ? there is a video clip showing some dude demonstrating it, looks like it works well.
to answer , I work with hardoods, and planes are great tools to talk about. i think it is a must to learn to use them well.
thanks
One Blade Adjuster is not the same as another.
>Toothed blade<
Nope I wouldn't bother with that. I have one. It works great but it is more for if you have to plane a surface that is just the hardest narliest stuff like a bunch of knots. Or you can use it to roughen a surface for veneering or other special applications.
For the weirdest wood you are likely to encounter you can simply wet the surface with some alcohol, paint thinner or water , in that order of desirability, to soften the wood, then plane it wet and you should be fine without the toothed blade. For now , for this oak table, anyway.
>The Lie-Nelson #5 bevel up<
Yep, I have one of those and use the HELL out of it. It is a great tool. Not a finish plane though. The blade control system is not really up to the task of finish planing. The system in the Veritas is more controllable, consistent and precise. The LN jack is more of a stock removal tool for really hard, problem, or highly figured wood. You may be better off, able to remove more wood faster, using a bevel down with a steep frog.
BY THE WAY I MENT TO SAY IN MY LAST POST MOST OF WHAT I AM SAYING HERE IS WHAT I HAVE LEARNED FROM THE OTHER, MORE INDUSTRIOUS, KNOTS MEMBERS.
When I got here I was pretty much a bevel up man and this plane, LN Jack BU was my panacea for everything. I have since been educated to the other planes and why and how they can be great too.
For my purple heart and bubinga I say give me the LN Jack BU.
For your oak I am thinking they are thinking that you ought to be thinking steep bed bevel down.
Now to the photos :
First one is the LN Bevel Down #4. Put in the steep frog and you are good to go. The bronze sure looks nice but you will find you need to wax it more often even than the iron plane to reduce the friction at the sole sliding over the wood.
Second photo is my main work horse planes = the LN scrub, the LN BU jack like you are considering and the Veritas BU finish plane.
The third photo is the Veritas BU #7
I am a BU dog
I can do without #7 size planes (though I love to look at them and am not sorry i bought them)
Mostly I am saying I have tried about all this stuff.
I think I will order the veritas smoother you have and seem to like so well. Going to get a high angle frog for my #5 jackplane and try that out. too I still think I will get that LN I sent the link to you yesterday. It will be a nice plane to have around.
Hey thanks for all your help and advice, it's much appreciated. I will have to let you know how it works out , though it will be a while...going out of town for a bit.
Good hobby this wood working.
>For your oak I am thinking they are thinking that you ought to be thinking steep bed bevel down.<
Ha Ha Ha -excellent !!
See you , and thanks again from Wisconsin
To get close but final is smaller planes. Weird huh ?
I use the #7s to get close but since I check with the straight edge I could easily just use a shorter plane with a fair amount of throat clearance for thick cuts.
Being somewhat of a tool turkey the power jointer I like won't fit in my shop; 8 inch Grizzly. I nearly bought one anyway. So I do not have a power jointer at all.
>curious if you use your jointer planes to joint the edges of your boards before gluing up? <
I find I get a lot of pleasure and satisfaction from hand jointing with the hand planes. Oh yah it takes for ever, the obsessive way I go about it anyway, but fun and satisfying. I am not on a time schedule and do not make money from my "Good hobby this wood working".
I think I will post a link or two to some of my past views on jointing.
http://forums.finewoodworking.com/fine-woodworking-knots/hand-tools/crooked-hand-planing
scroll down to #26 for my views though the whole thread is worth reading.
Here is another with one my projects with just a little too much learning experience for my taste.
http://forums.finewoodworking.com/fine-woodworking-knots/ask-john-white/using-dowels-join-boards
> was thinking about using my jointer plane after machining in hopes of getting excellent results (minimal visible glue lines)<
Sounds like you are already getting excellent results from your jointer. If not on some joints then by all means use your hand plane. It is extremely easy to take off too much wood and in the wrong places and get the alignment of the faces out of the same plane so go light and use a good square and straight edge. A long accurate straight edge can cost a fortune. You can make one out of wood but then it has to be treated like the queen of the shop.
>Should i leave the cutting edge at 25 degrees like it came from the factory (bu, bedded at 12 degrees making it cut at 37. ) or should i sharpen the cutting edge steeper ? <
Start with what you have, GOOD AND SHARP, and try it. tear out only matters if it shows in the final product and it may not. It doesn't effect the joint strength enough to worry about.
>I also spring the loint on the jointer, i assume to do that with a handplane, i would put two boards in a vice back to back (to keep square etc.) start the cut with the plane 8" or so from the and stop the cut the same distance from the end...curious if it produces a nice joint?<
I never spring the joints.
The wood I use, so far, has been around my house so long waiting for me to quit "playing scales" and start working it that it is quite acclimated and so does not dry out on the ends and split.
: )
and
except for my monster work bench and our bubinga dining table I tend to work thinner stock to make sides for smaller cases
http://forums.finewoodworking.com/fine-woodworking-knots/general-discussion/rubed-glue-joints
(page down I am down there some where)
and I use rubbed joints similar to or exactly like a luthier would. The joint is visually perfect (no spring) when stacked up vertically without glue and no clamps, I apply glue to both pieces, I rub the joint back and forth longitudinally until it starts to grab, I quick like a bunny, align it and leave it the hell alone for an hour or so until it sets up.
Gorilla glue is not for rubbed joints. I use white glue or hide glue for rubbed joints.
Clamping this thin stuff it can bow and bulge and be an unnecessary bunch of clamp juggling. OK to be honest I am proud of my rubbed joints (and always surprised and fascinated when they work so well) and so I do it this way.
Scrape or not to scrape
I put more camber on my finish blades than some (still extremely small amount of curvature ) and using a short finish plane for the last touch up I have great control over where the edge cuts. So I just plane the last blemishes.
I use a card scraper more on the nubs in a finish. I even plane the finish to get rid of something that a scraper isn't going to like. Doing it will tell you when to use what.
I really avoid sand paper. I use sandpaper on my metal work but not on my woodwork. I admit this is eccentric.
I don't work oak much so have no advice to give about fuming or staining oak.
Fuming should probably be done outside. Some would say don't do it there are better, modern , alternatives.
Sorry I cant help with that.
Thanks for the complements. I mostly lucked out and got some nice wood and then cut it and planed it. There is a couple of spots in the purple heart work bench where the wood reflects light just like a humming birds neck when it turns bright red. This was no credit to any thing I did. I didn't even put any finish on the wood; I planed it and left it uncoated.
PS: the word "Professional" in the photo title is a joke on my part.
: )
Of course if you start filling the oak with grain filler then forget planing the finish and grab the sand paper. Most every thing I work is small pored and I haven't done much filling.
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