Replies

1. 
   cherryjohn | Mar 05, 2005 01:19am | #1

   Frank Klaus has a video out on making drawers using hand cut dove tails.  I have seen him do it in person and he is a guy to watch.

    

   Wicked Decent Woodworks

   Rochester NH

   " If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"

1. 
   Olebiker | Mar 05, 2005 03:52am | #4

   I have to second that recommendation.  I just got the video back from a friend who had kept it for about five years.  I learn something every time I watch it.  I also have a video of Tage Frid cutting dovetails.  It is intersting that these two masters go about it in pretty different ways.

   Dick Durbin

2. 
   BG | Mar 05, 2005 01:31am | #2

   Mikemd,

   Without a doubt Ian Kirby's paperback 'The Complete Dovetail' covers all the aspects your looking for......process as well as technique...and includes a philosophy. 

   I also like Phil Lowe's approach especially relative to body position and execution. Their was a video clip on here showing him cutting dovetails last year. It may not be available but you can check.

    

3. 
   WillGeorge | Mar 05, 2005 02:03am | #3

   basic handcut dovetails................

   I do that... Router looks better but I'm not sure REALLY how they should look when fisst made.. I see OLD and New hand cut and thinks the REAL old ones were NOT perfect.. Am I wrong???

   Fit that is... I see dovetails on old stuff that look OK but joints filled with dust?

   
   

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   Edited 3/4/2005 6:05 pm ET by Will George

1. 
   RMillard | Mar 05, 2005 05:21am | #7

   Drawer dovetails in period furniture, were often looked at as a means to an end and could be quite crude, even on excellent furniture. Looking at drawer dovetails, and exposed dovetails, such as those on blanket chests or drawer dividers, the latter will almost always be of better quality. This tells me, that the original maker spent time where necessary, and put on the speed elsewhere.  Many masterpieces of old furniture are just hacked together. Also, earlier furniture will typically show less refined dovetails. For example comparing two pieces of equal overall quality from the William and Mary and the federal period, the federal will usually have dovetails of better quality.  The cabinetmakers then ( and some today) worked under a lot of pressure and poor conditions ( try cutting dovetails by candle light).  There are of course exceptions to this, with the dovetails by the Goddard-Townsend, Seymour and son, and Lannuier, to name a few. These makers took great care with the dovetails, especially Lannuier. The major shortcoming I see with period dovetails as compared to top quality ones, is saw cut over runs, and irregular spacing ( done by eye), both evidence of emphasis on speed and not any lack of skill.

   Right now, I'm making a Chippendale Philadelphia chest on frame, and I had to actually work harder to make the less than perfect dovetails typical of these pieces, as compared to the federal period dovetails I most often cut.

   Rob Millard

4. 
   Yersmay | Mar 05, 2005 04:16am | #5

   There's a website you should take a look at... it really helped me.
   http://www2.gol.com/users/nhavens/htmlfile/dt1-e.html

   Good luck!

5. 
   workinhard | Mar 05, 2005 04:44am | #6

   I got the Frank Klaus video when I first started woodworking and was fairly "green".  It was easy to follow and I produced perfect dovetails on the first try.  It saved me from trying to interpret the pictures of a printed article.

   Good luck.

   
   

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   Edited 3/4/2005 8:45 pm ET by workinhard

6. 
   closeenuf | Mar 05, 2005 05:26am | #8

   I have to agree with CherryJohn...Frank Klause.  I too have seen him in person and actually have an autographed sample dovetail joint he cut at a show I went to in Portland Maine.  His system using very little measuring which is nice.  About all he uses is a marking guage.  No sliding bevels, rulers, dovetail gauges.  I'm a weekend warrier and the system has worked really well for me even though I only cut them a few times a year.

   A skill well worth learning...Good luck!

7. 
   mvac | Mar 05, 2005 06:53am | #9

   Lonnie Bird did the cover story for Popular Woodworking in the Feb. '05 issue - "Your First Hand-Cut Dovetails." The next issue, coming out in mid-late March, includes another article by him entitled "Fundamentals of Layout."

   I'd been getting closer and closer to good-quality dovetails before I read Bird's article. But once I read it, I just got it. Maybe I was ready for it and it could have been anybody, but I think there was a simplicity to his approach that helped me out a lot.

   I would get the Feb. issue of PW, and follow up with the April issue (mid-March) which includes the article focusing on layout. You may be pleasantly surprised...

   Good luck,

   Mitch

   "I'm always humbled by how much I DON'T know..."

8. 
   Peter36 | Mar 05, 2005 10:16am | #10

   Good for you. The best advice that I can give is to tell you to buy Rob Cosmans video, basic dovetails available at Lie-Nielsen website. Rob shows you how to accurately lay them out using the Alan Peters method and how to achieve perfect results even on your first try. Well worth the money.             Peter

9. 
   Peter36 | Mar 05, 2005 10:28am | #11

   Here is my most recent set. I learned from Rob Cosman.  Buy the video.

   
1. 
   mvac | Mar 05, 2005 04:00pm | #13

   Peter,

   That's a beautiful piece (your devotion to Rob Cosman notwithstanding...:-)).

   But I was struck by the thinness of the inner pins. I imagine that structurally they're not as important as the outer pins, which are thicker and therfore stronger. But my smallest chisel is 4mm, and that wouldn't begin to fit into the almost non-existent small end of the interior pins. Do you use a small-kerf Japanese/Dozuki saw to more or less "disintegrate" the waste?

   Let me know,

    Mitch

   "I'm always humbled by how much I DON'T know..."

1. 
   Peter36 | Mar 05, 2005 06:47pm | #16

   Hi Mitch. Thanks for the kind words[notwithstanding :)  ] When I first learned to cut dovetails we were shown that the joint will always be stronger than the application it is required in. I have taken 2 pieces of hardwood 3/4" thick by 3" wide by 6" long, dovetailed them together with very narrow pins and then set the triangle on the floor and stood on the corner. I weigh 210 and it did not break. The point of all this is that esthetics come first in dovetailing. The pins are not all that thin in this example, I will sometimes cut them about 1/2 as thin. When I cut my tails [first] all I do is just saw to the line. This way you can have a pin width of just your saw kerf. I use a Independence saw. If you have a decent saw you can saw to the line and not require any chisel work on the sides, and make your pins as narrow as you like.   Talk to you later.   Peter              Buy the video:)          

10. 
    SgianDubh | Mar 05, 2005 03:52pm | #12

    Mike, Here's an attached image of a method for marking out for the front lap dovetails and back through dovetails of a typical drawer side. The rule is used diagonally across the part to find a convenient number to divide by, e.g., if you want two full pins with the normal 1/2 pin at either end then hold the rule at a diagonal to find something easily divisible by three, e.g., 90 mm, 6", etc.. Slainte.

    RJFurniture

    
1. 
   BG | Mar 05, 2005 07:27pm | #17

   Sgian,

   That picture makes it clear how to layout the half laped dovetails in the drawer front, nice trick, but I'm a bit confused with the back side through dovetails.  Where do you lay the rule ?  If I'm pivoting my rule to create three tails...where do I start? thanks 

   Opps ! I think I got it now....start for the top of the back board (ie. board joining the side board) and pivot to the top of the floor dado

   Edited 3/5/2005 11:31 am ET by BG

11. 
    mvac | Mar 05, 2005 04:56pm | #14

    Mike,

    A few things I forgot to mention about layout tools:

    1. While I respect the opinions of all the folks in this thread who advocated various methods  for optimizing the angle of the dovetails, they're all, IMHO, a lot more work and a lot more complex than using a simple aluminum dovetail angle template like the ones shown here from Lee Valley for $9.95 for the pair. I tend to use the softwood version on my hardwood dovetails because I like the  larger angle, but that's a matter of preference. Point is, making the angles for your dovetails does not have to be, and shouldn't be, rocket science. Finally on this point, you're angles are not limited to these traditional ones - experiment with a sliding bevel. The only "rule" I subscribe to is that both sides of the same pin/tail be at the same angle. Again, IMHO, spending tons of time, or even more than a few seconds per pin/tail on setting the angle is boring and uninspiring;
    2. I have found the best success for myself when I mark the locations of each pin/tail on both faces and the end grain. I use an engineer's square for the perpendicular lines, and my dovetail template for the angled lines;
    3. Few people who cut dovetails successfully would disagree that one of the most important, if not the most important, layout line is the baseline. This is sacrosanct - it must be perfectly straight (and of course your piece must be perfectly square), and should be scribed sufficiently deep to allow your chisel to "catch" on it when paring and chopping out waste. There a are many tools for accomplishing this, such as the mortise/marking gauge, the cylindrical marking gauge, and my personal favorite, the wheel marking gauge. What I like about the latter is that it tends to cut, rather than tear through, the wood fibers, and is very easy to adjust with one hand. I have all three types. Generally, the width you'd set the marking gauge at would be the width of the mating piece. Never, ever, ever cross your baseline. The baseline is scribed on all four sides on the tail pieces, and only on the faces of the pin sides;
    4. When marking the initial dovetail angles, whether pins or tails (this is a constant disussion that will never end - whcih should come first? - I've had great success with cutting the pins first, but it's what you feel comfortable with), a sharp pencil is quite sufficient, IMHO. But since the pins (or tails) that you cut first serve as the templates for the tails (or pins) that you cut next, a knife can be much more accurate or transfer, and accuracy at the stage of transferring the layout marks from one piece to the mating piece is critical. While you'll find no dearth of marking knives for sale at all price ranges, I use an Exact-O knife with a low-angle blade, and once I'm done I take my sharp pencil and trace over the scribe lines to make them easier to see;
    5. While you can certainly measure exactly the diatance between tails/pins, locate exactly the center tail, etc., you don't have to. I've cut a number of pieces by "eyeballing" the locations, and they've come out just fine. Also, many people find aesthetic pleasure from dovetails that are not perfectly symmetrical in their spacing or their angles, so try not to get hung up on it;
    6. Finally, while this really is not a layout tool, I've found that the Japanese Dozuki saw I use, a "mini-Dozuki" (item "B" in the linked image) cuts such a fine kerf that it allows me to cut on or near the layout line with very high confidence.

    I hope this lengthy message is of help and gives some asurance that hand-cutting dovetails doesn't have to be an exercise in geometry and advanced mathematics - it can be very intuitive, and should be enjoyable.

    Best regards,

    Mitch

    "I'm always humbled by how much I DON'T know..."

1. 
   highfigh | Mar 05, 2005 06:05pm | #15

   To expand on what has been said before, don't get too hung up on the details of 'how' to cut dovetails, concern yourself with "do they look good?". If there are problems in execution, practice on scrap wood. Any hand work is going to depend on muscle memory and the more times the operation is done correctly, the better the results will be. Symmetry isn't absolutely necessary. The best examples of fine furniture look good, but from a technical standpoint, they aren't perfect. They weren't trying to be perfect when they made these. There's no reason to measure anything with a ruler when cutting dovetails, but a marking gauge, knowing how to use dividers and developing a trained eye make will yield the results desired.For those who aren't too familiar with dividing spans and shapes without a ruler or scale, get a drafting book. An angle or line can be bisected or trisected very easily with a compass. If you want even spacing along a line and have a ruler, you don't need to do any math to divide it into almost any number of pieces. This is like anything else, it takes practice to get the results. If someone doesn't have the money to buy all of the best tools (like the old craftsmen), become fluent with what is available.
   "I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."

2. 
   SgianDubh | Mar 06, 2005 01:47am | #18

   "whcih should come first? - I've had great success with cutting the pins first, but....."

   Each to their own of course Mike, but for speed I cut the tails first, on the basis that time is money and I try to maximise profits and keep down client charges wherever and whenever I can. It's always quicker especially if you have several parts all the same to do. If four drawers are all the same height, stack eight sides together and saw the rakes front and back in just two operations instead of sixteen. Even a single drawer normally has two sides the same so these can be put together as a two pack and all front and rear tail rakes cut in just two operations instead of four.

   If pins are cut first each has to be cut individually, transfered individually, and the matching tails cut individually. I prefer to save this order of operation for where it must be done in this order, i.e., when executing such versions as the secret lapped, secret double lapped, and the secret mitred dovetail.

   I must admit that nowadays I seldom carefully fully mark out my dovetails-- I tend to just eyeball the darned things. And just for fun I sometimes demonstrate the five minute rear drawer dovetail and the ten minute front lap dovetail just to keep the learners on their toes, ha, ha. Slainte.RJFurniture