Replies

1. 
   jackhall | Dec 21, 2004 12:36am | #1

   Re: "Also tried the iron method to roll over the edges, with a big screw driver shaft, but again the scraper steel is too hard? What am I missing here?"

   Not an expert but I had the same problem trying to raise a burr on card scrapers with "a few light passess with the burnishing rod".  The sides of the scraper need to start out absolutely 90 deg square to the edge.  I found that it took a very strong pressure on the burnishing rod (okay, so I'm not Arnold) to start raising the burr.  The key indicator of success is when you feel a strong resistance to the movement of the burnishing rod along the edge.  You can tell the difference very easily.

    

1. 
   VomSorb | Dec 21, 2004 01:14am | #2

   Lick the burnishing rod first.  It will bite better on the scraper.  You shouldn't have to bear down too hard.  A card scraper doesn't need much a burr at all.

   Buy a high quality burnishing rod.  They do make a difference in my opinion.

   If you need more aggressive cutting, use a cabinet scraper the geometry of which causes is to remove a lot more wood (relatively speaking) with each pass.

1. 
   jackhall | Dec 21, 2004 02:36am | #4

   Is it correct that a scraper doesn't use a burr?  It is an iron, beveled on the backside and with the top of the blade tilted forward in the direction of motion.

1. 
   Midnight | Dec 21, 2004 02:53am | #5

   jackhall

   you're refering to a cabinet scraper; totally different beast to a card scraper. If a cabinet scraper iron is thick enough, it will cut without a burr. That said... I experemented with a burr on my 112 with inconclusive results; worked fine while it lasted, but didn't last too long. Mike Wallace

   Stay safe....Have fun

2. 
   VomSorb | Dec 21, 2004 06:34pm | #9

   A card scraper needs a small burr turned on a very well prepared edge to do its job properly. 

   A cabinet scraper has a burr turned on an edge jointed at 45 degrees which by its nature results in comparitively aggressive stock removal (vs. a card scraper).

   I think L-N ships their card scrapers with instructions that turning a burr is optional.  Don't quote me on this however.  A scraper without a burr will still remove material, but to my eye it scratches instead of cuts.  Might as well use sandpaper in that circumstance as far as I'm concerned. 

3. 
   GHR | Dec 22, 2004 12:19am | #13

   jackhall ---I use razor blades s scrapers. They cut well without a burr. I suspect any tool with a sharp edge (even 90*) properly usd will scrape without a burr.Jellyrug ---You need to match your cutting tool to your material. A very hard material requires a very hard cutting tool. A2 is better. HSS is better yet. And you need to sharpen the tool well.

2. 
   Midnight | Dec 21, 2004 02:33am | #3

   What am I doing wrong?

   Jellyrug..

   if the build quality of your 12-003 is anything like my #5... short answer is probably not very much... I found that using a standard Stanley blade with the throat set in any position other than having the back of the blade hard against the rear of the throat, it wouldn't look at hardwood at all without digging in... Honest... it's not your fault..
   That said... there's a bunch you can do to improve things.

   Firstly... the biggest prob is your blade... the only way to prevent it digging in is to replace with a thicker, stronger blade and decent cap iron. Lie-Nielsen, Lee Valley, Ron Hock and a bunch of others all make good replacements; just specify that it's an upgrade iron for a (insert as appropriate) plane and they'll see you right. The digging is caused by the blade flexing under load; a combination of poor support (poor frog design) and thin, weak steel. To be fair, these blades are best suited to softwoods.
   What the thicker iron will allow you to do is adjust the frog to close the mouth to the point where the front of the mouth properly supports the wood immediately ahead of the blade, thereby helping to prevent tear out; something that your 3/16" setting is leaving you highly prone to getting. Honestly, you'll notice a hellova difference.

   Technique wise, you can help the blade cope in a couple of ways. Sharpening a camber into the blade will put a little less strain on the blade (smaller footprint at the cutting edge). Theoretically it'll take longer to get the job done, but as you'll be spending less time planing out tear out, all in all, cambered = faster.
   Additionally, rather than holding the plane in line with the grain, skew it while planing with the grain; the degree of skew needed will depend on the wood. The effect is to lower the angle of incidence between the wood and the blade, making it far easier to cut.

   IF... you upgrade the blade and are impressed with the results, yet still struggling to avoid tear out, I suggest you look into getting a Bedrock plane; either Clifton, Lee Valley or Lie Nielsen. Alternatively you could try to track down one of the older Stanley bedrocks. Their advantage over conventional Bailey planes is in their frog design lending far greater blade support right where its needed, as close to the blade tip as possible... But that's another story  ;)

   Hope this helps....

   Mike Wallace

   Stay safe....Have fun

3. 
   RMillard | Dec 21, 2004 03:43am | #6

   I'm glad to hear that you used the plane.

   I've never had a scraper that was so hard a file couldn't cut it, so I can't help you there. I clamp a fine single cut file in the vise, and push the scraper over it. It is simple( but critical) to hold it square to the file by eye. A few quick passes will get the edge in order. I don't bother to hone the edges, but I do use a fine diamond hone on the faces, being very careful not to round over the edge. I then lay the scraper on the bench and draw the burnisher down the face with it tilted at a shallow angle, applying pretty good pressure. This will draw out a microscopic burr. Then I draw the burnisher down the edge, applying very light pressure, this will "fold" the burr down, resulting in a tee shaped edge, (if you could see it that is). The next step is to roll the burr over to form the cutting edge. There are varying opinions on this step, but I just hold the scraper so just a little of it projects over the edge of my work bench and roll the burr over with the scraper held at a shallow angle of maybe 10-15 degrees. I apply fairly heavy pressure at this step, but many advocate light pressure. I use a broken carbide end mill for a burnisher. It is essential that the burnisher be harder than the scraper, as you found out.

   On the plane question, mass produced planes vary so much in quality, that it can be a roll of the dice, and a poor plane will never work, or at least not without a lot of work. The same goes for the irons in them. I'm a big fan of A-2 steel for the irons, and had some made before they were commercially available. I've found that many power tool savvy woodworkers are not aware of what sharp is, when it comes to hand tools. Sharpening is a whole other issue, but in short, if it won't shave the hair off your arm, it isn't even close to sharp enough. While an investment you can't go wrong with the Lie-Nielsen, Lee Valley or Clifton planes. My preference are the LN's simply because they are available with the higher angle frog. The higher pitch is a huge improvement over a standard pitch. Before these were available, I ground the irons of my Stanley planes at 25 degrees and honed a 5 degree bevel on the BACK. I know this goes against conventional wisdom, but it will in effect raise the bed angle of the plane. This bevel on the back does not have to be large, in fact you can't even see the ones on my planes, but has a noticeable effect on the action of the plane on hard wood. This next opinion will no doubt meet with some disagreement, but I think a tight throat has no effect on the quality of the surface, nor does the chip breaker. I have a plane I made, and the throat is so large you could throw a cat through it, yet it will in tough wood make a shaving you can read through. I also have a Clark and Williams jointer that lacks a chip breaker, and it performs very well. With this in mind, I set my frogs back to where they offer maximum support to the iron at the cutting end,( this is not a concern on Bedrock type planes) and I let the breaker set back somewhere around 1/16". I often plane Brazilian Satinwood, and while no picnic, it is possible with a sharp blade and a solid plane.

   Rob Millard

   
   

   ---

   Edited 12/22/2004 7:19 am ET by RMillard

1. 
   Jellyrug | Dec 21, 2004 08:30pm | #10

   Thanks so much for all the good advice.

   Starting with my el-cheapo Stanley plane and then all the information here, has me convinced that it's time to invest in some good tools. There is a lot of confusing information available though, and I had to think about this for a while, to understand why a good hand plane costs more and is more effective than an electrical hand plane.

   I have my eyes on Lie Nielsen, but not quite sure what to do?

   I have a 8" jointer and a 15" planer. I cannot justify a wide belt sander, or a drum sander and my main objective is to flatten perfectly boards wider than 15", after glue-ups. Anything wider than 8", I will use a rig on my planer.

   More questions:

   1.) The Lie Nielsen no 5 plane looks like the right start, with the optional high angle frog. Am I on the right track?

   2.) The Lie Nielsen low angle smoothing plane, seems another alternative and can apparently do both rough and finishing work. Is this a better alternative than the above?

   Edited 12/21/2004 12:37 pm ET by Jellyrug

   Edited 12/21/2004 12:59 pm ET by Jellyrug

1. 
   cft353 | Dec 22, 2004 12:20am | #14

   "Starting with my el-cheapo Stanley plane and then all the information here, has me convinced that it's time to invest in some good tools...I have my eyes on Lie Nielsen, but not quite sure what to do?..."

   Gawd Almighty! Don't give up on that Stanley just yet. "It's a poor workman who blames his tools." Not to be harsh; it's just that as an admitted newbie to hand tools, you could probably get better performance from Stanley with some practice and info. This post is a great start.

   And when/if you decide to upgrade, there are several stopping points on the price/quality continuum between Stanley and Lie-Neilsen. L-Ns are beautifully-made. beautifully performing tools. I continue to believe that one can get quality results without spending that much money. All my planes are Stanley and (old) Craftsman. James Krenov makes his planes, fer cryin' out loud.  O.K., they're probably wonderful at this point, but they also don't comply with criteria, presented as objective, of what a quality plane is supposed to look like. Have you seen Krenov's work? Not bad...

   Just hang with Stanley a bit longer and learn all he has to teach you before you lay out a lot of money, thinking that will solve your problems. How much worse would you feel getting unsatisfactory results with a $300 plane? lol

   Merry Christmas!

1. 
   Jellyrug | Dec 22, 2004 12:43am | #15

   Heh heh heh,

   Enjoyed your post.

   I don't blame my tools and believe firmly that pointing a finger at anything, you always have three pointing back towards yourself.

   My little $30 Stanley does a perfect job on Walnut, been there done that. I actually glued up some Walnut laminations with good glue joints using this fellow. It also taught me how to use a hand pane and how it works with all it's components. It has it's limitations though, try and use it on some of the harder woods.

   I have a very demanding day job, probably close to 3000 hours per year, then there is the family and then my wood-shop. Time is the main challenge here.

   So here are my options:

   Buy a Bedrock plane on ebay, for $90 and restore it.

   Buy a Baily on ebay for $15 and restore it.

   Buy the best  Lie Nielsen I can find and do an extra days woodwork. Think this is what I want to do, because I can.

   There has been some excellent advice in this thread, but I have never used a low angle, or a scrub plane, so why don't you rather tell me which ones you prefer and for what?

    

1. 
   Midnight | Dec 22, 2004 02:14am | #17

   A little over a year ago, I was in the same position as yourself, struggling to get the most out of Stanley planes. The core of my prob was that I couldn't figure if it was me that was doing something wrong, or if it was the tool. I read everything I could about tuning the planes, dually flattening and fettling, filing and polishing; to be honest, it didn't make all that much difference. The things that did make the difference was switching to quality tools that I knew I could count on to get the job done first time, every time, no exceptions. The guesswork went out the window instantly, any prob I had, I knew I was doing something wrong, and could adjust accordingly. Net result was that completion times came down rapidly, work satisfaction went wayyyy up, confidence went through the roof, allowing me to tackle more and more ambitious projects.

   If I'd to start over again, my first buy would be a L-N 62 with a spare conventional blade and a toothing blade. The toothing blade lets you work rough stock quickly and aggressively, the length of the plane helping to start the flattening process. As for the other blades, after polishing the back, I'd hone one at 30 deg, the other at 35 or 40 to give a broad spectrum of pitches; the 30 deg bevel is perfect for end grain and finely textured long grain, the 35 gives a cutting angle of 47 degrees, almost identical to the angle chosen by Norris for their infill planes.

   The 62 is a beautiful plane to use; enough heft to slice through difficult grain, enough length to give both stability and comfort for long periods of use, the combination of finely adjustable blade and adjustable throat render tear-out a thing of the past, and that massive 3/16th thick blade simply does not chatter no matter how hard you force itMike Wallace

   Stay safe....Have fun

2. 
   cherryjohn | Dec 22, 2004 04:18pm | #18

   Ok hers my spin on this thread.  I have 2 LN planes.low angle jack and the small scraper.  The Low angle jack works great where its supposed to.grainy woods and such.  With that adjustable mouth it is a jewel.  That small scraper??...well lets just say it sure looks good!  But the planes I reach for almost all the time are my wooden bodied planes ... a ECE fore and and ECE smoothing plane.  Both on these have wedged irons, not readily adjustable.  So I have a couple other old wooden bodied planes set at a more agressive cut  I have 3 Jointer planes all wooden bodied set at different cuts as well.  My favorite is the Ulmia jointer, again with a wedged iron.  The point here is I get my tools at antique shops and if you know what to look for you can get a good deal.  My ECE planes and my Ulmia jointer plane, all together didnt cost what my LN low angle jack cost.  The three of them were almost new as well...the 2 ECE's look like they have never been used ( $55 for the both of them).  Now for scrapers...love them!  cant sharpen them so................. I use used thickness planer blades set in scrap cherry ( see attached pics)  It leaves a fine lace like shaving.  When you want to sharpen it you use a stone since you can now get a grip on the blade with the handle attached.  One problem.........thickness planer blades are curved so if you need a curved  scraper........................oh well!

   If the women dont find ya handsome..they should at least find you handy!                   

   Wicked Decent Woodworks, Rochester NH.................yessa

   
3. 
   bigfootnampa | Dec 22, 2004 09:54pm | #20

   CHERRY JOHN;  Don't say that you can't sharpen a card scraper ... that isn't true.  What you mean is that you have not yet learned how to do it effectively.  Read my post above and try again.  The advantage that you miss when using the planer blade scrapers that you showed us is in the geometry of the burr which (because of the curve formed when the burr is turned) acts sort of like a tight throat and a close-set chip breaker would in a plane ... to limit the depth of cut and minimize chipping and tear-out.  because of the way that a scraper's edge is curved when you are using it it also (mostly) eliminates lines from the corners dragging.  So a razor blade or planer blade may get the job done but usually not as well  or as easily.

4. 
   cherryjohn | Dec 22, 2004 10:33pm | #21

   thats why you round over the edge of the planer blade so it does not gouge.  What I have learned about card scrapers is that the down side is you have to sharpen them a lot; that burr edge breaks off easily............ I have tried and tried and I have been given instricyion and shown devices that do the job of sharpening them all to no avail!  To be honest, even the best sharpened ones dont seem to produce as fine a shaving and a sharp planer blade

5. 
   CharlieD | Dec 22, 2004 09:23pm | #19

   I agree wholeheartedly with Mike W about the L-N #62. I got mine about a month ago, and can't seem to put it down. It's quite versatile, light but solid, very easy to adjust, etc, etc. This is a low-angle plane with an adjustable mouth. I find it perfect for what you've said you need--flattening joined panels. But it also excels in other ways. Now, I had the advantage of standing around watching the guy at the Denver WW show demo these planes and how they're used for hours. Here's what I learned: High angles are good for hardwood with squirrely grain or figure. Standard angles work well for hardwoods with typical grain. Low angles work better for softwoods, especially those with straight grain. And if that doesn't make your heart sink because you now need 25 hand planes, note that sometimes, for unknown reasons, you'll get a better finish using one or the other in the "wrong" way; for example, I found recently that a low-angle jack--the #62--left a better finish on a piece of quilted maple than the high-angle frog on my smoother.Here's the kicker on the #62: with a simple 5 minute process of re-honing the 2ndary bevel and careful setting of the adjustable mouth on the #62, you can effectively change the cutting angle and get any angle you want. That's in addition to the toothed blade Mike W recommended which I have and also recommend. The advantage of this blade is that you can take a deep cut and have no tearout. This allows you to scrub, and while slower than a real scrub plane, you get less tearout and save more material and perhaps more time because you don't have to plane off the tearout.You'll need to learn to sharpen--REALLY sharpen--if you don't know. The guy a L-N showed me a very effective method. And you'll need to learn to adjust the plane you buy. But those things can be done. Now, I agree that a less expensive plane can be tuned to perform similarly, but try finding a genuine used Stanley #62, and see how much it costs if you do.If I were buying all over again, I'd buy a L-N low-angle jack, a L-N low-angle smoother and a stack of blades honed for different angles. I'd be a happy guy. (Well, I'm pretty happy with the ones I've got, too...)CharlieEdit: Oh, yeah--the #62 is cheap, too, compared to the #5 jack you've been considering.I tell you, we are here to fart around, and don't let anybody tell you different. --K Vonnegut

   Edited 12/22/2004 1:26 pm ET by CharlieD

6. 
   BG | Dec 23, 2004 03:50pm | #23

   Jellyrug,

   I'm a lot closer to being a beginner than most of the people on this thread..but I do a lot of planing and would like to share my $.02  (Santa: please note, I'm being nice)

   First of all by clear about your objectives because that will determine your approach and the tool you'd like to have in your hands.  You mentioned planing a panel after glue-up and then, latter on (another post), planing an oversized board.  I plane and joint before glue-up and, therefore, take a minimalist approach initially on a panel and become more aggressive as needed; Usually this entails moving from a card scraper to a Stanley #80 and a low angle block plane...and lastly (maybe) a Smoother (#4 Stanley).

   With a rough board I go the other way....scrubber, #5, #7, #4, and maybe a card scraper or #80.  The key is to get the job done efficiently and avoid tearout, etc.

   Second, understand the physics of the plane.  Many planes can be adjusted to do the job of other planes reasonably well. Adjusting the frog and the chip breaker can change a plane from a scrubber to feather producing tool....throw in a back bevel and and you have lots of flexibility.  For most of us however, once set up we tend to leave a plane set up and not adjust except for depth of cut.  Hense I've got 11 planes(including 4 wood smoothers), but even with that quanity, I know all to well some times none of them work on a given piece of wood...sigh !!.

   Third, what do you buy...ebay stanley, LN, etc.  I'd put my money where the results are the most critical...block plane and smoother from LN....the rest I'd buy used and tune.  Afterall, all these things do is hold a piece of metal at a specific angle...they vary the length and width to make the work more efficient....and then you vary the mouth and chip breaker for aggressiveness of cut.  But, when I'm planing a panel so I don't have to sand or planing dovetails or making angles flush..I want a light controllable cut.  

   After I will the lottery I may revise my thinking ...Merry Christmas   

2. 
   sawdustom | Dec 22, 2004 12:48am | #16

   I'm in a similar situation. I've got some stationary tools that work OK but I recognize I need to learn to use my handplanes and scrapers effectively.Recently I read David Charlesworth's articles in FWW on plane setup and maintenance. I started with my moderately priced #4 Marples Record. This has been quite an experience.I started by modifying the throat per DC's guidance. Careful work with a file and some 320 grit sandpaper and it was looking good in about an hour.I then started on the frog. The frog face (where the blade is mounted) was seriously humped. Lots of sanding and I got it flat. Unfortunately, it was no longer square to frog's feet but I let it go to see if it mattered. (This is the same effect you get if you hone one side of a blade to much, the cutting edge is no longer square to the side of the blade.)Then I went to work on the frog's feet to make them sit squarely on the plane body. Using 240 grit carbide powder and a lot of time I got the feet sitting solid.Then I reassembled the plane and checked the sole. It was concave by almost .004. Got out the surface plate and some more sandpaper and went to work. 2 hours and 2 beers later it's flat.Then I started to work the chipbreaker. It wasn't even close to being square to the blade. Some filing and honing and cursing and I got it to where I thought it was working the way it was supposed to.I honed a slight camber on my blade, reassembled the whole thing and started to practice. The plane worked pretty well, much better than before all this work but...Remember that out of square frog - the blade was so skewed that it was nearly impossible to get the blade edge camber centered on the sole.Out comes the frog, work the feet to get it square. Rework the face because I didn't understand the geometry and tried to square the frog by altering the face. Rework the feet so they sit stable. Reassemble the plane.It works really well now. I definitely understand hand planes a whole lot better. I understand why good planes cost more than cheap planes. I understand how to be a more discriminating plane consumer (I should have sent this one back when I got it!).Do your best to make the plane you have work. Spend some quality time fixing and tuning. Spend some more time practicing (this is really satisfying as you are improving your plane.) When your're done you'll have a realistic sense of what a "good" plane is worth.

4. 
   DennisS | Dec 21, 2004 08:35am | #7

   Jellyrug-

   I'm pretty much in the same boat as you with respect to using hand tools. Especially planes.

   I don't own any make or brand of plane I would care to admit to other than my Grandad's old Miller Falls. That said, I've taken one of the low angle block planes I got from someone's junk pile, spent half a day (it seemed) getting the sole flat within reason, the rest of the day working the iron to a point I could shave with it, and I've been having pretty good luck with it.

   The secret I've found, at least with the el-cheap-oh things I've got is to let the tool do (as much) work as it can. I learned to set the iron to take shavings so thin I can almost see through them. I believe I can remove more wood with two strokes of 120 sand paper than my plane removes in one pass. It just takes time but in the end it's really very satisfying to work this way. I actually feel like I've got control over stock removal. I lust after the opportunity to use a really, really good plane to see what I could accomplish.

   Anyway, with respect to scrapers - as others have mentioned, to 'sharpen' these guys, or raise the burr, you have to first get the edge at the most perfectly square condition you can achieve. Or, failing that, I've tried dressing the edge at a very, very slight angle then turning over the acute edge for the burr. This is on a card type scraper. Perhaps this isn't good practice but it seemed to produce a fairly good burr plus it was relatively easy to re-establish a burr mid stream without having to go back and dress the edge from scratch.

   I'm still learning as you can tell but just thought I'd share what little experience I've had thus far.

   ...........
   From Beautiful Skagit Co. Wa.
   Dennis
5. 
   bigfootnampa | Dec 21, 2004 11:52am | #8

   I would give you the opposite advice from jackhall.  Most unskilled users apply way too much pressure when turning the burrs on their scrapers.  It takes only light to medium pressure ... too much pressure fragments the edge and results in a jagged toothy edge that doesn't cut well at all.  If your files won't cut your scrapers steel it is time to get new ones.  Anything softer than carbide or another file or a top quality burnisher should be softer than your files.  You have to get efficient at sharpening them to use scrapers because they don't stay sharp long.  I filed about 3/16" off  of mine in a few hours while flattening a countertop two weeks ago.  I took off a lot of wood though.  I would have used a full box of 5" discs for my random orbit sander to do the same job (and taken longer and expended more energy and gotten a poorer result too).  A really good burnisher is as hard as a file but polished smooth.  A screwdriver shaft is a very poor substitute and should only be used as an emergency backup.  File your edges and then go straight to the burnisher.  Forget you ever read all that bull about honing and stoning.  Use as large a file as you can lay hands on, preferably a fine cut rather than a bastard cut.  I have used second cut files but I'd much rather have a single cut file.  A long file is much nicer than a short one and wide is better than narrow.  My favorite is a twenty-four inch plasti-cut file (I got it at a cabinet supply house ... sold for formica installations).  Try to use your file at an acute angle to the scraper edge so that the files teeth are perpendicular to the scraper edge as you slide the file while holding it level with the scraper clamped vertically in your vise (this is for a card scraper).  Scrapers to be used in scraping planes and the like should be filed at an angle and burred so that only one edge is active (the sharper edge).   You need to become skilled at keeping the proper angle of filing to get your burr at just the right angle to cut in the holder.  When sharpening such one sided scraper blades use the file in such a way as to push more metal toward the cutting edge.  As far as your planing I'd say that it sounds as if you had your plane set to cut too deeply.  Take thinner shavings and more of them.  3/16" is a pretty wide throat gap and I would try to narrow that if I could.  Keep in mind that you want your attack angle steeper for harder woods.  Your attack angle is mostly set by your plane's design but you can adjust it by honing a microbevel on the front face of the plane blade.

6. 
   CTWoodWkr | Dec 21, 2004 11:41pm | #11

   Quality woodworking craftsmanship requires skill with both hand and power tools. I use a jointer and planer to speed up the milling process but I can also do it by hand if necessary. I would go so far as to say that you have no business using power tools until you can mill a board four-square using only hand tools. An excellent explanation of this process can be found in Peter Korn's book, "Working with Wood, The Basics of Craftsmanship". As to planes I would recommend the Veritas Planes sold by Lee Valley Tools. But before you sink a lot of money in tools I would also recommend that you find a few second hand Stanley planes and recondition them so you learn what features to look for when buying a new plane. There is a good article in Fine Woodworking a few issues back that explains in great detail how to bring an old plane back from the dead. Finally, I would warn you not to waste your money on expensive Lie-Nielsen or Clifton "coffee table tools" - nobody will know from looking at your finished projects whether or not you used a $25 used plane or a $350 new plane. They both need you to learn how to tune them and sharpen their irons. Work on becoming an experienced craftsman not a tool collector!

1. 
   VomSorb | Dec 22, 2004 12:09am | #12

   I generally agree with your philosophy however there will be times when one has to find refuge with one of the more expensive brands.  One might need a smoothing plane with a high(er) angled frog.  I'm not sure if these were ever available in a Stanley or Record plane, if so they are certainly rare at this point.

   Also, if I am in need of a tool there is a point at which it becomes absurd to continue a search in the used market when the need is relatively pressing.

   Better to take the attitude that one intends to use the hell of their L-N plane instead of polishing and coddling its bronzed countenace.  They are made to be used.  My L-N scrubber looks like it has been through a war, well maybe not that bad.  It definitely doesn't get coddled.

   There is nothing, per se, to brag about in fixing originally shoddy manufacturing through the tuning process.  That tends to make one an effective, though belated, quality control employee of the original manufacturer.  I don't believe that responsibility ought to be shoved down to the end user. 

   However, I don't doubt for a moment that lots of money is spent on trophy planes that sit on the shelves of trophy shops. 

7. 
   Jeffnv | Dec 23, 2004 05:47am | #22

   I picked up some old stanleys on ebay and they are great.  I have some friends with ln planes and they are definitly better.  The old stanleys are much cheaper and if you take the time to sharpen them and clean them up they will perform better than new.  I to had problems with scrapers - how big a hook - how hard to you push.  Picked up the bernisher from veritas that you dial in a number on.  Now I have different cards for different numbers and they produce amazing results.  Good luck.