Hello all. I’ve been reading the Hand Tool forum posts in order to try to figure out if I should go for a #7 or #8 hand plane to perform the work of a power Jointer.
I am a newbie to woodworking, and have been getting into hand planes. I have a couple of projects under my belt. I do not have a planer or a jointer (nor do I have the space for both in my workshop). So my plan was to get hand planes based on the smaller space requirements. Thus my question: in order to use a hand plane to create a flat surface, which is better a #7 or a #8?
Replies
Cyclone,
Welcome, either hand plane will do the job. The #7 is more available and perhaps a bit less expensive..it is also a bit smaller and therefore, easier to use. We all love our power planers however and I strongly encourage you to make the space for one.
Cyclone:
Welcome to the craft. You don't say what your intended use will be (jointing or planing) but I use both a 7 and an 8 with most of the time being with the 8. These large planes are best used after shorter planes have done the majority of the work so if you don't already own them consider a 4 1/2 or a 5 for use as smoothers then finish up with the big plane.
There a bunch of guys here who can run circles around my abilities to provide the finer points of hand plane use but this will at least give you some thing to chew on.
Enjoy!
Madison
Thank you for your reply. Actually, I'll be jointing with them. I do plan on purchasing a planer as that can be moved around easier than a power jointer. I'd love to get a power jointer, but the size of the shop will not permit it. :(I am purchasing a smoother this weekend, and I'm also on the hunt for jointer hand plane. So you are correct in that I will be using a smaller plane prior to the large one.
Cyclone:
If you're looking to buy new consider either Lie-Neilsen or Lee Valley both are great planes. If you're buying used like I often do check out antique or flea markets. Or another favorite of mine is the fine tool journal site http://www.finetoolj.com . Clarence runs 4 or 5 absentee auctions and tool sales each year. Lots of stanley tools and fair honest pricing.
Enjoy!
Madison
Some additional comments about Fine Tool Journal: This is an excellent resource for tracking tool prices, if you are a subscriber to the magazine. The mag comes out quarterly and lists tools for sale and also tools to be auctioned. The mag also lists the selling price for the auction held in the previous issue. Damn good maazine articles too! Bear in mind this is tools only and really not woodworking.
T.Z.
P.S. Clarence is also one of the fairest tool dealers, for price and condition you will ever come across. He also (had) the best LN prices, but still sells at the currently fixed price, with free shipping, which is still a good deal. Plus, they remember you when you speak to them on the phone or see them at one of their live auctions.
There are a few choices. There first decision is if you want to go for a woodie or for a metal plane?
My first preference is a woodie. You can even make your own. I have a 30" razee that I built. Although Jarrah is very dense, the razee design allows it to be quite light. This length is wonderful for truing long edges.
View Image
Steve Knight also makes one (and does a better job than I)..
http://www.knight-toolworks.com/wooden.htm#Jointer
Also look at the planes of Gary Blum. They are different but very user-friendly and obtain excellent results ..
http://www.blumtool.com/pages/benchplanes.html
In the area of metal planes, the choice is a Stanley or LN #7 or #8 and the Veritas and LN BU Jointers.
The Stanley #7 is the cheapest option and it is a good plane. I must say that if I were buying a new metal jointer I would be very tempted by the LN #8. I was using one recently and just love the heft in the hard woods I work. It was like a locomotive on tracks.
The Veritas BU JOinter is one I do have a lot of experience with. What is interesting about this plane - other than BU configuration (which gives you many choices of cutting angles) - is that the registration is the same as a #8 yet it has the same length as a #7. I wrote a review of this one ..
http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ToolReviews/The%20Veritas%20Lee%20Valley%20Bevel%20Up%20Jointer.html
Here it is with my Stanley #7 ..
View Image
Regards from Perth
Derek
Derek, I've read your article and I am impressed. The best way to test a plane's functionality is to give the most difficult work and see how it compares against the competition. I am impressed with the results. However, I would rather spend some of that money on some other tools like some more chisels or saws. Thank you for your thoughts. You have broadened my expectations of wood planes. I'll have to reconsider wood planes.
Also look at the planes of Gary Blum. They are different but very user-friendly and obtain excellent results .. I wanted one but I did not order one. I had the money then but listened to others? Ok, so I asked the question. Old post I made about them and the response was very limited.
http://forums.taunton.com/fw-knots/messages/?start=Start+Reading+%3E%3E
Philip Marcou gave a MORE than reasonable answer as I remember. I took the other responses with a laugh.. Nothing against the other posts.. I knew I was in trouble when asking about a new plane!
I do not have any real 'quality' hand planes. Just my old junkers. They work for me. But then again without a QUALITY one to play with how would I know the difference?
My grandpa was a OLD... OLD.. Cabinet maker. He started woodworking in WWI (as I recall). Made wooden parts for Artillery pieces. I have no idea but seem to remember him saying that.
As to how this fits into the subject at hand??
His favorite hand plane was about the length of a Jack? 18 maybe 20 inches long? Old beat up wooden thing that I saw shavings come out of for hours on end! Little kid just behaving and just watching him. I had to behave or I could not watch! Never taught me a thing. I think he hated children thinking back. NEVER mean to me.. Just yell GO PLAY someplace else!
But then again the time watching him I still remembers I learned something.
I think?
On his old wooden plane, he sometimes attached 'boards' (Kid thoughts now) to each side of the plane if he was working on something really long and wide..
Sort of like a long fence to give his 'baby' some extra reach?
Am I dreaming? Or are my old thoughts real. I forget! Just funnin ya.. It was real! I saw him do it many times!
This length is wonderful for truing long edges.
Just a thought. If good for.. This length is wonderful for truing long edges. Why not for a few passes on the surface to 'true' up whatever you did before hand to take off anything 'unusual'?BEFORE your fine cut tools!
If you are looking for a good deal for a Jointer plane look on E-bay for a #22 Millersfall Jointer plane this plane is almost the same design as a Stanley #7 and is equal in quality. I just looked at one on E-bay that was in new condition and it sold for about 67.00 dollars. Here's a link to Millersfall tools. http://oldtoolheaven.com/ I have a #22CBG
(CBG means corrugated bottom government model) which I added an aftermarket blade and chipbreaker and the tool works wonderfully. Anyway good luck and have fun.
#7 will work fine plus they're about $50.00-75.00 cheaper than a #8 if you're buying old Stanleys (not sure the cost difference in new planes).. #8 is a beast that gets heavy to work with after awhile however some people like the added weight.
Along with your jointer (#7 or #8), you should look around for a fore plane (#5) and a smooth plane (#3 or #4). In a nut shell, use the jointer on boards to get a clean joint line and flat surface. Use the fore plane for aggressive stock removal and use the smooth plane for fine shaving.
Edited 10/10/2008 1:37 pm ET by mvflaim
I think I'd go for the #8 in your case for the same reason folks want longer beds on power jointers. If you flip it upside down in a bench vise or even a weighted down Workmate you could probably treat it somewhat like a power jointer at least for edges.
If you build it he will come.
I advise you to acquire the #7 size because it is more versatile for furniture making. The extra length of the #8 is only of some (dubious) benefit if you are making things like long refectory tables, church furniture and fitting out banks , court rooms, parliaments, casinos and pubs with miles of counters and bar tops-and you would be so lucky these days.....
So for normal furniture making and pottering about the #7 is my choice, but my point would be further reinforced if you were faced with the task of preparing such endearing woods as Jatoba, Burmese Teak, Wenge etc by hand with the choice of either of those two planes.
In fact the #8 is really only of use for edge jointing....and you can still that with a #7 very effectively.
Are you a chopper pilot?
Philip,Thank you for pointing this out the fact that the #7 will do the job and that the #8 may be overkill for my use. My thoughts were that the #8 would be better at straightening out rough lumber due to its added length. I know its only 2 inches longer, but I wasn't entire sure. Thus my question. One of the projects I would like to work on are a kitchen island, a built in shelf / china hutch, and a bathroom sink cabinet. I live in a Craftsman Bungalow and it needs some restorative remodeling. After these projects, then I can go onto making furniture, if possible. I hold 49% the say in the household. So the #7 really is 'better' for my application than the #8. That seems to be the consensus. Now I'm not a chopper pilot... no that would be too cool for a guy like me. Actually I'm a chemical engineer that likes to work with my hands. I was also a lab chemist for a while.
Cyclone,
There is no way you can make sense of the advice you got here. Two of the sharpest people on Knots are Philip and Derek. They gave you contradictory advice on the #7 vs #8. Most of the men told you to get the #7 because it is easier to handle. The one woman who joined in, Madison, told you she usually uses a #8.
How can any newbie make sense of all of this? They can't. You can't.
My advice to you is to find a good woodworker or two in your city. Is there a Woodworking club in your city, or nearby? Go and make some woodworker friends who will let you into their shop and show you how to use planes. Try the different planes. Try the old ones, eg Stanleys. Try the new ones, eg the Lie Nielsens and the Lee Valleys. Try woodies, as Derek advised. See if you can use a #8 for ten minutes.
Try to use a plane to joint two boards.
You will find it frustrating at first.
The big problem is not which jointer to use, but the SKILL necessary to use them well.
Many people do their jointing with a #5, a jack plane.
Read about jointing boards.
Read about different methods of doing it with hand planes.
Try a few of them at the shop one of the woodworkers you befriend.
Are you near Springfield, VA? If so, come visit me at Woodcraft, or at home. Try mine.
FOCUS ON SKILL.
FOCUS ON LEARNING.
FOCUS ON TECHNIQUES.
Don't focus on tools yet.
And if anyone tells you to "Only buy the best", you should run from them at great speed.
If you can't find any woodworkers nearby, buy a few DVDs, get Rob Cosman's videos on sharpening and using hand planes. Get his DVD on squaring up a board. Watch someone like Rob. That is not as good as actually using the tools with a competent woodworker, but it is much better than just reading about it, or getting conflicting advice on Knots.
So who should you believe, of all those who have given you advice in this thread?
MINE :-)
Have fun.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
I think that your posts outlines some great advice. The only things that I would add is to cut a lot of wood and that I improved a lot by trying a new skill on each new project.
Frank,
Thanks for your nice words.
I expected to be flamed.
I fully agree with your advice about cutting a lot of wood, and choosing each new project so as to learn a new skill.
We are kindred spirits.
Thank you.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
You want flamed? I'll flame you! You abandoned the "LN jointer plane" thread for days on end without advance notice and the thread has gone basically sideways in it's quest for 5000!
Beyond that, I fully agree with what you said and if you recall we've talked about this very thing in the past. Knotheads that are willing, should say they would be help with tool tests and have their general location mentioned in the bios (safety concern to not give out addresses until you know the character of the character you're dealing with).
Anyhow, get off your soapbox in this thread and get back to the grandfather of all threads!
T.Z.
Hi Mel (and Cyclone)
I know how interested you are in review writing, so here are a few of my thoughts on this and on offering advice ...
You were concerned about being flamed for writing:
There is no way you can make sense of the advice you got here. ...
FOCUS ON SKILL.FOCUS ON LEARNING.FOCUS ON TECHNIQUES.Don't focus on tools yet.And if anyone tells you to "Only buy the best", you should run from them at great speed.
Nah, I wouldn't flame you on this advice. I agree with you all the way.
I tend to think of awareness/learning/skill development as a process of "zooming in-and-out". When we are "zoomed in" we are dealing with detail. But this does not allow for rational decisions. We need comparisons for rational decisions. So we "zoom out" to get the bigger picture. Of course one cannot stay with general comparative analyses only, since forcesus to lose touch with the "essence" of the experience, so we need to zoom back in for closer inspection. This, then, draws attention to some need other detail .. and back out we must zoom to gain perspective on it.
The problems with advice only occur when it is given from the extreme ends of this spectrum - either the advisor is providing very selective advice ("this tool is better than all other tools") or very general advice ("they are all the same").
Being overinclusive and describing the pros and cons of every tool is likely to lead to confusion, so we select out a few for focussed comparison. Making a decision on paper is equally problematical since feel is important and each tool has its own ideosyncracies. However, experience is equally vital to judge these differences, and a newby will not have this knowledge without getting out there and trying them out first hand. Even then they are not aware enough to recognise all they are experiencing. Where it is impractical top get hands-on time, one has to trust the information given by others, and learn to be discriminating of it. That is, in the end one must use one's own judgement and sensibility. Certainly, when I offer information, I am expecting that others will take what I say and evaluate it carefully - not just accept it as gospel.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Edited 10/11/2008 9:30 pm ET by derekcohen
Derek,
Thanks for not flaming me.
I read your message with great interest.
Can't find anything to disagree with.
I like your way of putting "zooming in and zooming out". I used to call it "spiral learning" -- you go over the same stuff time and time again, and each time you see different things, some details, and some generalities.But my advice for newbies remains: NEVER ASK FOR ADVICE ON KNOTS. You will get too much conflicting information that you will not have the background to cope with. SO, INSTEAD, go find someone close bye who will let you use their tools in their shop with some guidance. You will learn infinitely more doing that than getting 15 different answers on Knots. I recommend to newbies: "Only ask for advice on Knots after you have already done some research and gotten some experience." I also recommend that they NEVER think about a tool without the need for accompanying skills that are necessary to make it work properly. Focusing on Tormeks and diamondstones and waterstones is what causes people to become scared of sharpening and to want an automatic sharpener like the WorkSharp. To me, skills are infinitely more important than tools. With the proper skills, one can even work with poor tools, if there is no alternative at the time.Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Listen, Mel, you are "focussing on skill" to such an extent that it is counter-productive. Get a grip of yourself.Consider the possibility or otherwise of focussing skills on a tool which one does not yet have i.e which comes first? (;)
Have you read all the recent posts in the Public Uber Blog for which you are responsible? It seems to be slowing down.Philip Marcou
Philip,You said that I focus too much on skill, and not enough on the tool. You may be right, but I don't think so. Too many newbies, and some oldbies look to a new tool to solve their problem. That is what Cyclone was doing. He wants to do jointing, and doesn't have room for a real jointer. Well, there are lots of ways to do jointing without a powered jointer. One is to use a sled on your tablesaw. Another is to use a router with an appropriate setup. I am sure you know about those two methods. I would recommend them to Cyclone before I would recommend a #7 or #8 handplane. Both take far less skill than using a big jointer plane.There is a nice way to do jointing with a hand plane. Build a long shooting board. Heck with an appropriate shooting board, you could do you jointing with a block plane :-), but I would recommend a Jack plane over the block plane, because it is good for lots of things. I once talked with Rob Cosman about which plane to buy first. Stupid question on my part, but good answer on his part. He said that if he was only going to have one plane, it would be a 5 1/2. You can use it for jointing (once you learn the skills). You can use it for smoothing, and even at the shooting board. Now that I have tried it, I believe he is right. Others also focus on a Jack plane as a good way to startThe easiest answer to give anyone on Knots is to tell them how you do something. However, that is really silly. It is better to tell them that for any task they can think of, there are lots of ways that people do it every day, and that is the important fact. For jointing,
Person A uses a #7 fettled old Stanley.
Person B uses a #8 fettled old Stanley.
Person C uses a #7 Lie Nielsen.
Person D uses a #8 Lie Nielsen.
Person E uses a #7 fettled old Stanley with a new Hock blade and chipbreaker.
Person F uses a #8 fettled old Stanley with a new Hock blade and chipbreaker.
Person G uses a powered jointer.
Person H uses a long shooting board.
Berson I uses his table saw with a jointing sled.
And on and on and on.There is an important set of facts. You can do jointing lots of ways. Don't just settle on asking about #7 vs #8.I am reminded about the golfers who have been golfing for 40 years, and are now fairly wealthy, and look to a new set of clubs as a way to improve their game. GOOD LUCK! Golf is a game of skill. Getting another putter ain't going to make you another Tiger Woods. Tiger practices more than anyone else. He has learned that one should focus on SKILLS, not tools. I have a set of golf clubs from the 1920s. I'll bet that Tiger Woods could shoot a good game of golf with them any day. A less skilled golfer would just complain about the lousy clubs.The three things I admire most about your are:
1) your skills
2) your entrepreneural spirit.
3) your great personality.
I believe some of your plane making tools are just refurbished old tools, which you have the skill and spirit to fix up and put into working order. My guess is that you might like to have a complete new set of the greatest metalworking tools that now exist, but that the cost would be prohibitive, so you will continue to focus on your SKILLS to make great planes. YOU ARE MY IDOL.Thanks for writing.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
I recommend to newbies: "Only ask for advice on Knots after you have already done some research and gotten some experience."
NASA comming out!
I took you advice and gave up carving!
Mel,Now I don't feel so bad about being confused for weeks on end! I'm glad someone vocalized what I was going through. I've tried reading the past threads concerning the issue of what hand planes to initially get. I could not make sense of the threads because of all the conflicting opinions. So you will not receive any Molotov cocktails from me.Actually, I've been spending my time investigating the local woodworkers club in my area of Durham, North Carolina. I've located the nearest Woodcraft store and have found their class times and dates. So your advice has been in action for about two weeks. I understand that skill is the thing that's needed most with any hand tools. So I was going to:1. Read before attempting.
2. Try to take a class on this subject.
3. Use some construction grade material and try my hand with them. I surmised that a #8 would provide the flattest surfaces due to its additional length. Also, I was going the used tool route, not new. Its much cheaper especially with all the other things needed in the workshop. Another note, I'm 4 hours from downtown Springfield, VA. :)
Cyclone,
If you are only four hours from Springfield, VA, you may get up this way every once in a while. If you do, you and your wife/girlfriend are invited over for a meal and you and I can use my tools and I can teach you how to sharpen plane irons, etc. Just let me know when you are coming up for a day.Are you near the store in Raliegh, NC? If so, I know two of the people who work there. One is the manager. The other was a good friend from the local Washington Woodworkers Guild. If that is the store near you, let me know, and I'll give you their names, and I'll let my friend know you are coming to the store. He is one terrific woodworker, and will help you out. You are on the right track in doing some reading and then going to take some lessons, and also joining the local woodworker group. I can tell already, you are going to become a good woodworker. You have the right attitude. I am glad you got something out of my message. Please feel free to write to me, via the email option, anytime you have a question that you think I can help you with.On the question of #8 and #7 - I think the answer is that either one will work for you, once you develop the skills. Some like one, some like the other. Some have both. Some have neither. Lee Valley sells a 'fence' that attaches to your plane, and helps you joint the board by helping keep the plane perpendicular to the wide side of the board. Some people think it is a crutch. Some love it. You can learn to joint boards with or without it. The real answer is that everyone does these things differently, and you will come up with something that you feel comfortable with after you try a few. I bought an old Stanley #7 a while back, and took the time to put it in fine usable shape. It takes an IMMENSE amount of time to do it. I highly recommend a Lie Nielsen. They are expensive, but you can get most of your money back by selling it on EBAY if you ever decide you don't want it. So there isn't much risk.My approach to woodwork is to try out tools and techniques. I always assume there is a learning curve. There is. Enjoy the learning. Try not to worry about making the right choice of tool or technique. Enjoy the process of trying stuff out, and getting better with experience. At some Woodcraft stores, you can try out tools. DO IT! There is no better way to get a feel for them. Make some woodworking friends, and visit their shops. Come visit mine. That way, you will see how differently people do things, and you will realize that is the nature of things. That is why everyone gets conflicting advice on Knots. They are all correct, in their own way. ((Well, most of them. :-) ))I have gone on too long, as usual. I hope you find an idea or two in here, and I hope you take me up on my offer to visit my shop.Glad to have you for a friend.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
As another point of research, if you do a search on "handplanes" here, you'll turn up links to an interesting video series in which Phillip C. Lowe answers questions about handplane use, as well as other helpful articles.
Cyclone,
Hard to add much to all the great advice here.
Thought you might need some tool porn:
http://www.holteyplanes.com/a1.htm
This may only be available used now. I believe he discontinued it. If someone asks you to exchange ten thousand dollars for it don't look surprised just say "That is an interesting offer I'll consider it".
I have two #7s. A LN bevel down and a Veritus bevel up. Both great tools. One or two observations from my limited but enthusiastic experience. Softer wood bevel down. Very hard wood bevel up. Allot of both bevel up.
It takes allot of horse power to push one of these with a straight across/ not much radius to the blade through wider edges (eight or ten quarter) and take off a thick shaving. Much easier to push with radiused blade but more passes. Then put in a fresh straight across blade for final lighter passes.
If you want straight boards in my experience you will need a straight edge that is quite long. I have not been able to get edge joint levels of straightness with out checking with a straight edge. At this point one begins to question the value of a gigantic plane and begin to enjoy the jack planes. I do admire the big big wood bodied planes mentioned earlier and want to give one a try someday.
Speaking of power jointers; in one of my most inspired or insane moments depending on who is reviewing my reveries, due to lack of space and desiring a wider jointer than 6 inches, I even considered buying one of the humungous, for my space, eight inch Grizzlys and sawing the ends off to emulate the foot print of the fine but out of my league Incas
http://www.woodcentral.com/bparticles/inca_570.shtml
but then I spent the money on the laptop being used to write this that I will use way more and is easier to move out of the way in my mostly hand tools for wood hobby shop.
Any comments on the power jointer pro or con I will accept with the knowledge they come from cooler heads than mine. Hey I didn't actually get out my Portaband this is only a bad dream ok? A tool is only a kit and you take it home and finish the job the manufacture started.
Cyclone, buy a big old straight edge if you want hand cut edges. Besides if you buy a big nice Starrett then you will want to make a nice box for it and so you have an excuse to buy more wood, I used walnut and green felt, It's a good life !
My guy is a Beveled one edge - 48" long ($280.00)
http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/indextool.mvc?prodid=ST-STRE.XX
Bought it about twenty years ago and glad I did.
In closing I say buy lots of blades for what ever plane(s) you get. A consideration if you want them to interchange #7 width more interchangeable.
Cyclone - Lots of advice, none of it bad. I'm going to give you a slightly different take that's a bit of a summary of some of the advice that Mel, Derek, and Philip, among others, has given you:
So why did Stanley create a whole line of bench planes from a tiny #1 to an aircraft carrier like the #8? Surely you can't need all 8?
And the answer is yes, you don't need all 8, you typically need only 3 planes (at least for preparing and finishing stock - joinery is another matter) - one is a "roughing plane" designed to take a very thick shaving with a heavily curved iron, the next is a "jointing plane" that's designed to cut down the high spots and skip over the low spots, thus flattening out the board in the direction that you're planing, followed by a "smoother" that is short and efficient at hitting every surface of the board so that the whole surface is smooth.
So the reason that Stanley made 8 bench planes is that what one craftsman needs for the fore, jointing, and smoothing plane is going to be different from what another craftsman needs. The difference is the length/width of the typical stock they're working.
If you're typically working long, wide boards for things like tall case furniture, you'll typically want a longer fore (or roughing) plane, jointing plane, and even the smoothing plane might be a bit longer. Those would comprise the #6 for the fore plane, a #8 for the jointer, and perhaps a #5 or a #4-1/2 for a smoother.
If you're typically making models, musical instruments, or other small things, then you're going to want a much smaller fore, jointer and smoother. After all, it' would both look ridiculous and be very awkward to use a #8 on a 10" long, 1/8" thick and 1" wide piece. In this case, a #4, a #5, and a #2 might be appropriate for the fore, jointer, and smoother.
So - if you're typically going to make human-sized furniture, paneled case goods, etc..., perhaps a #8 is best for a jointer, though if you're a smaller person with less arm strength, a #7 might be a better choice. If you're going to be working on boxes (like jewelry boxes or humidors), then perhaps a #6 will be a fine jointer for you.
Finally, what makes a plane a fore, a jointer, or a smoother? Confusingly enough, it really doesn't have anything to do with the absolute length of the plane, though a smoother is always shorter than a jointer. A fore, or roughing plane, has a heavily "cambered" iron (that is, the front, sharpened edge has a pronounced curve) and a wide mouth, and is set-up to take heavy shavings. A jointer typically has a much more slightly curved (but still noticeable) iron for use on surfaces and edges, though some craftsmen prefer a straight-across iron for "match planing" edges (this reply's already too long to go into that - see Garret Hack's book). Finally, a smoother has a very finely-set mouth, and a very, very slightly curved iron and is used to take very fine shavings.
So you can see from this last paragraph that a #5 could be set up to be a roughing plane, a jointing plane, or even a smoother in a given set of 3. It just depends on the length of the other two and how the iron and the width of the mouth is set up.
d,
that was a very nicely written post. EXcellent, dude.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
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