I want to make some small knives for detail carving etc., nothing specific in mind. I’m looking for information/advice as to what would makes a good blade that I can easily get hold of and not have to do anything with with regard tempering or anything like that.
I have made some out of old disposable planer blades but found that they did not hold an edge well and were very brittle. Suggestions as to old tools and or blades that make good small bladed knives or any sources that I could by stock blanks would be appreciated.
I have looked at knife making stock but everything I find is too thick for what I want to make.
Thanks for any input.
Replies
Hi Joker
I have used old Stanley plane blades.
Chip carving knives ....
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Letter knife ....
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Regards from Perth
Derek
Edited 10/23/2009 1:23 pm ET by derekcohen
Awsome!
Just the advice I was looking for. I don't have any right now but now I have some direction. No issues with grinding or did you perhaps use a belt sander?
Thanks much
Joker,
I went to a garage sale, and someone had some old barber razors that they were willing to sell cheaply. I believe they will make fine knives. You mentioned you want to make "detail knives". Why not try a hacksaw blade for a few small detail knives?Or, why not go and spend a week with Ron Hock and talk the whole thing over, and see what he recommends, and forge up some stuff, and let us know how it pans out. :-) Naw, just try a hacksaw blade.Mel
PS this is in addition to Derek's answer, not in opposition to it. Use whatever useful materials that show up first.Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Hi Joker
Further to Mel's post, very durable detail knives may be made from HSS jigsaw blades. I've made literally hundreds of these over the years (a few on this forum can let you know how the blades hold up).
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There is a construction tutorial on my website. I recently updated this with a jig to grind these small blades: http://www.inthewoodshop.com/ShopMadeTools/A%20Knife%20for%20Marking%20Dovetails.html
This Jarrah detail knife and scratch awl set was a gift to a good friend ..
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Regards from Perth
Derek
Edited 10/23/2009 10:24 pm ET by derekcohen
Derek's tutorial on making marking knives is a great read - very clear and understandable, and makes the project sound very doable. It's worth the time to read, even if you go a different direction. I plan to try his instructions this week.
I agree, it is a great tutorial.
Most of the jigsaw blades in HomeyDomey today were high carbon or unmarked. Finally found a couple high speed steel choices and shaped one this evening. The tip needs more work, so I'm planning to ask a professional carver to touch it up on his linisher (1" wide vertical belt sander - the only source I've found is Lee Valley). I'm not proficient with mine.
Hope yours works out.
Thanks for the reply. It looks like I will be trying The old plane iron I have, some HSS jigsaw blades and probably old band saw blades and see what I can come up with.
Awsome tutorial! I did happen to find an old plane iron from an old plane that someone gave to me a while back; I forgot I had it.
Any the plane is very, very, very, rusted up and I would have not desire to try to fix it up; plus I prefer wooden ones anyway. So, I salvage the iron out of it. But I definetely like the thought of using your additional suggestion for a blade.
Thanks again.
Hi,
Thanks for the reply. I had thought of using a hacksaw blade just wasn't sure how well ot would hold up. I guess what I mean by detail is using it for shaping door pulls and the like.
Thanks for the advice
I'm not sure how large a knife you want, but bandsaw blade stock works pretty well. Use the old-fashioned, black, high carbon steel kind - I believe it is called "hard back"; it is usually hard enough to hold a decent knife edge. Generally the wider the blade, the thicker it is. Half inch blade stock is usually 0.025 inches thick and can be cut with a good pair of aviation metal shears, although you'll dull them. One inch blade stock is usually 0.035 inches thick and makes a stouter blade, but is much harder to cut. You can break pieces off by holding it in a machinist's vise and striking it with a hammer. You might also try jig saw blades or sawzall blades - even ordinary hacksaw blades.
Power hacksaw blades work very well, but are tough to shape. They are relatively brittle, so again you can break off pieces in a vise. Protect your eyes and throw a cloth over the blade to keep fragments from flying. Let me repeat - protect your eyes - wear safety glasses while doing this.
If you don't mind grinding, several shapes of jeweler's or needle files make a blade that will hold an excellent edge, but it will be brittle.
All of the above materials would make a much better knife, if you heat-treated them, of course.
I have some old bandsaw blades but I do not know if they are "hard back" or not.
What I have are dull Timberwolf blades. Do you think that it would be suitable material?
"I have some old bandsaw blades but I do not know if they are "hard back" or not.
What I have are dull Timberwolf blades. Do you think that it would be suitable material?"
Maybe - I've never had any Timberwolf blades. Looking around their website I see that their blades are primarily designed for woodcutting, so they may not be quite as hard as the ones I had in mind. It's easy enough to find out though - make a quick, simple knife and see. Take about a six inch length, gently grind off the teeth, wrap some tape around one end for a handle, and then form a cutting edge on an inch or so of the other end. Try how well it cuts; it shouldn't take even an hour to do that.
Some years ago the local blacksmithing group, to which I belong, got together one Saturday and made "trade knives." These were just simple utility knives made from high carbon steel band saw blades from a metal fabricator's shop. The blades were of the type that were commonly used for metal sawing, but they were not Bi-metal, nor were they high speed steel. Doall's Dart and Metalmaster brands would be similar.
The steel was somewhere around R50c to R60c, which is hard enough to hold an edge, but still soft enough that it can be filed. We cold-punched the shanks for handle rivets we made from upset nails. The handles were just scrap pieces of hardwood that were kerfed or partially sawn down their length. Some of us used old, broken hammer handles and such. They weren't the finest knives to be had, but they were useful; I still have mine.
Thanks for the advice. I will try as you suggested and see what happens. I am just trying to make something that I can use when needed that fits well in my hand, so looks aren't important to me on this particular endeaver.
The heat treating, could you expand? Thanks
"The heat treating, could you expand? Thanks"
I meant that if one knew how and were willing to do some simple heat treating, one could better utilize the properties of the particular steel being used to make the knife. For example, if one could anneal the steel first, it is much easier to shape it by cutting, grinding, filing, drilling, etc. Of course, then the piece has to be rehardened and tempered, but this would also allow one to produce a differential or gradation of hardness from the cutting edge, through the body of the blade, to its back edge - and also along the shank. Granted, it is a much more involved process.
If you are asking how to heat treat steel or knives, I would have to refer you to some books or websites. Among the latter a great place to start is Anvilfire.com. Try: http://www.anvilfire.com/FAQs/ - there is a whole page devoted to heat treating. Another good site is on Youtube: search for Purgatory Ironworks. There is a great deal of basic blacksmithing and bladesmithing info in video form there.
As for books I would recomend Bealer's "The Art of Blacksmithing" for starters. Another very excellent book is Ray Larsen's "Tool Making For Woodworkers." He has had at least one article published in FWW years ago, and he has made and sold woodworking tools commercially; he knows his stuff. Another good text is David Boye's "Step By Step Knife Making." Any of these books should be available from a good public library and one might also find them still in print. Besides these there are a number of very old blacksmithing books online at the Internet Archive which one can download and save.
However, all the above is only a place to begin. Blacksmith-style heat treating is more of an art than a science and one won't learn it simply by reading about it - some practical experience will be necessary. I'm an amateur smith with nearly 30 years experience at this - most of it piddling around, but I can make a usable cutting tool. I learned what little I know from a bit of reading about the basics and then trying them with careful observation. I would urge others to do the same.
Oh, one caveat: About high speed steel and the higher alloy steels - they aren't something one can easily heat treat at home. A special temperature controlled furnace is required, because they have to be held at fairly precise temperatures for specific periods. Of course, that doesn't mean one couldn't work with some of it and then send it out to a professional heat treating establishment.
One of the advantages of working with HSS is that you do not have to be concerned about altering the temper of the steel. Just grind it .. cherry red if you will .. no harm will be done.
Regards from Perth
Derek
"One of the advantages of working with HSS is that you do not have to be concerned about altering the temper of the steel. Just grind it .. cherry red if you will .. no harm will be done."
Yes, that's quite true, since high speed steel is designed to work at as high as a red heat. That brings to mind an experience I had years ago. I loaned a neighbor a half inch HSS drill which was American-made - a Hanson, I believe. He came back a few days later with a cheap Chinese-made drill he had bought as a replacement. Seems he had managed to blue the Hanson and thought he had ruined it. He was dumbfounded that I preferred he return my old one rather than me accepting the new, but I assured him there was nothing wrong with the Hanson. I wasn't so sure about the Chinese replacement he had purchased.
Dereck
Are circular saw blades HSS ?
Regards Shoe
Shoe
The circular saw blades i use are old, dull and cheap.
I do not believe that they are hss. They are very easy to cut.
I have used circular saw blades to make knives. I do recommend you heat treating. I use a torch for the heat treating process.
http://www.wonderhowto.com/how-to/video/how-to-make-an-easy-homemade-knife-from-an-old-saw-blade-266523/
Hack saw blades also work very well.
http://www.alpharubicon.com/primitive/knifemakingserger.htm
Hi there,
For lack of a better term, you didn't find the hacksaw blade to be too "soft"?
In short the answer is no.
Hack saw blades are a bit thin but if you are making a short blade the will work just fine.
Cool, thanks for the info and the reply
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