I have posted on other forums on the site and I am gathering information on reproducing wooden storms for my home. I am going to be using mortise and tenon joints with the mortise going all the way through the stock.
I hope that I don’t offend the purists here but I am looking to cut the tenons with a saw and possibly doing the mortises and the place that the glass will sit inside of the storm with a router (unless someone else convinces otherwise).
So the questions are as follows (mind you, I am not experienced in woodworking):
1) What are the tools that I will need to cut the tenons?
2) I am looking to buy good, reasonably priced tools that will help with the project(including a vise). Can you send me in that direction?
3) Are there directions anywhere as how to hand cut tenons (measuring, laying out, etc.)?
4) Will there be a compatiblility issue with hand cut tenons and machined mortises?
I appreciate your help in advance.
Chuck
Replies
The first 'tool' you need is a good book on woodworking joinery.
Good Wood Joints is a book I can highly recommend.
Check out this site as well: http://www.amgron.clara.net/
You can also join the premium area on this site and watch short videos on joinery.
And in the end a better way to learn would be for you to describe to us exactly how you think the joints should be cut and let us correct you along the way.
Edited 5/11/2006 11:55 am ET by charlesstanford
Hi Charles,
I wouldn't worry too much about offending purists. While tenons are easy to cut; tight good-looking through mortises are not a joint for rank beginners.
1. To cut tenons, you will need a backsaw and marking tools. You will also probably need a way to fine-trim the tenon to size. A wide chisel or a shoulder plane will do nicely. Practice with the saw until you can cut to a line reasonably well.
2. A bench with a vise and a bench hook are the best tools I can think of to help.
3. Almost every woodworking book will give directions how to cut a tenon by hand. It is one of the easiest joints to cut, so don't be afraid.
4. The only compatability issue is that machines usually cut mortises with round corners. You can square them off with a chisel. You certainly don't want round mortises showing on reproduction storm windows.
Good luck!
Dan
Chuck,
<<I hope that I don't offend the purists here but I hope that I don't offend the purists here but ...>>
"Purists"?!?!?!?! There are no purists here!!!!....... ;-)
Here's my nickel's worth:
Q1: You'll need a decent tenon saw and a LA block plane or shoulder plane. Layout tools (try or combo square, ruler/straight edge, mortise marking gauge, marking knife). Also a bench of some sort to work on and a means to hold your work (bench dogs, hold fasts, etc.).
Q2: Try these links:
http://www.lie-nielsen.com/
http://www.leevalley.com/home.aspx
http://www.japanwoodworker.com/page.asp?content_id=2896
http://www.jonzimmersantiquetools.com/index.html
http://www.woodcraft.com/
http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/
http://www.traditionalwoodworker.com/
There are MANY others, as well.
Q3: Try some of the hand tool/traditional woodworking books on these sites:
http://www.astragalpress.com/
http://www.cambiumbooks.com/
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/store/
http://www.woodworkerslibrary.com/
http://www.blackburnbooks.com/Product/TWT.html
Also, these sites have a wealth of information on woodworking techniques:
http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~alf/en/en.html
http://www.thegaloot.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php
http://www.cianperez.com/Wood/WoodDocs/Wood_How_To/INDEX_How_To.htm
http://www.norsewoodsmith.com/
http://www.supertool.com/StanleyBG/stan0a.html
http://www.amgron.clara.net/
http://www.handplane.com/
There are plenty more, but these should get you started.
Q4: No. The only "compatability" problem is whether the tenon fits the mortise properly. How you get there is irrelevant.
My suggestions:
Cut your tenons by hand and clean them up with the plane (the shoulder plane is ideal; the block plane will work fine -- just use a chisel to finish up the part that the block plane misses).
Cut your mortises by hand....if you're only cutting a few, it's a LOT faster than setting up the jigs, doing test cuts, etc, with a router or drill press; also lots less opportunity for a catastrophic mistake. If you cut mortises by machine, expect to have to do some hand tool clean up anyway.....
You can also cut your rabbet with a rabbet or plow plane or with a saw (and clean up with the shoulder plane or a chisel).
Have fun, and good luck with your project!
James
I usually cut my tenons by hand, but typically I only do a few at a time. If you are making many screens, a router and a jig might be faster. You can also make/buy floating tenons fairly easily, and use a router and jig to make the mortises. Mill your wood properly, and you should be able to set up and cut one after the other pretty easily. If you are making 15 screens, you'll be cutting 120 mortises if you use floating tenons and 60 if you don't. Before the purists come down on me (I'm talking to you, Adam...), I should say that floating tenons, properly sized and glued are perfectly acceptable for this application, and a whole lot better than biscuits or nails.
If you want to cut them by hand, get a mortise gauge, a back saw set for crosscutting, and a mortise chisel(s). Some paring chisels and a decent shoulder plane (rather than a block plane) would do the trick. Avoid cheap saws... good ones are hard to find- LN has them (but they are pricey), as does Adria and a few others. I bought an old Disston #4 (~1940s era) in good shape for $20. I had it professionally sharpened for $15, it's as good as anything I have used for cutting tenons (although I tend to use a LN DT saw for the cheeks and shoulders.)
Good luck,
Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
<<...a decent shoulder plane (rather than a block plane) would do the trick.>>
I suggested a LA block plane simply because it and a chisel to clean up the portion that the block plane misses (due to the mouth) is generally a lot less expensive than a good quality shoulder plane...so if the OP was on a tight budget.... I suspect that a combination of BP and chisel would be a bit easier for a beginner than trying to free hand it with a chisel. Plus, you eventually have to get a block plane anyway, just because it's so useful... ;-)
<<Before the purists come down on me (I'm talking to you, Adam...),...>>
Too funny!! Hey! Wait a minute -- I already told him that there were no purists here.... Waddaya tryin' ta do to me??? :-)
Cheers!
James
I think you are right about the block plane being cheaper and more versatile, but for tenons, a shoulder plane works best. Maybe an inexpensive rabbet plane, like a used #90 (~$15-20). If you are a beginner on a tight budget, there are several virtues to used tools:Top Ten List of Reasons to Buy Used Tools:10. Cheaper
9. Often higher quality
8. You have to learn to tune and sharpen- a good way to understand and master the tools
7. Endless discussions on the pros and cons
6. Make good ballast in the trunk of your car when driving on snowy winter roads (less important if you live in Florida)
5. Small planes make great coffee table knick-knacks
4. Meet interesting and stange people at out of the way flea markets
3. A great way to fill up all that empty space in your basement/garage/shop
2. Learn the arcane Stanley hand plane numbering system by collecting them all (what... no 601?)
And the #1 reason to buy/collect old tools:
1. THEY ARE CHICK MAGNETS... (sorry FG):^)Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
No argument here that a shoulder plane is the tool to use for trimming tenons; the LA BP + chisel just makes a less expensive substitute.
I like your Top Ten List. "Chick Magnet".....don't we all wish (alright....most of us...the rest [FG & company] are hoping that they will be dude magnets....)
[The ultimate chick/dude magnet just may be a Ferrari.... {a "proper" Ferrari: red and with 12 cylinders....}]
Cheers!
James
I found out one of the best chick magnets is... babies. When I'm out with my twin girls, all sorts of women and girls smile at both me and my girls.My goal is for my work to outlast me. Expect my joinery to get simpler as time goes by.
I think a thru tenon is the wrong jont for this application. One consistent aspect of traditional carpentry we see is the hiding/covering of end grain. I recommend instead a dry tenon, maybe even draw bored. I think this would be easier to make, faster and better weather-wise.
These guys really have me pegged now! I was going to tell you to skip the router and get an old mortising chisel. Now that just sounds predicted and banal! Seriously I can't advise you as to routers or hollow chisel mortisers. I suspect getting a really good joint from either might be a bit more difficult than it seems. Cutting pine by hand is pretty simple.
I guess my advice would be to start with a set of traditional house joiner's tools. For tenons I prefer two backsaws, a long one and a regular sized x-cut. But the tenons on your storms will be small enough that the regular tenon saw will work fine. Don't need no stinking shoulder plane. So flea market mortise chisel, a couple good new back saws, a set of good paring chisels and marking and measuring stuff ought to take you far.
Before those tools I recommend (knowing your requirements) a good coarse rip saw (find an old Disston and learn to sharpen it) and old stanley planes #4, #5, #7 or #8 and a (hate to admit it) #9-1/2 block plane. So start attending flea markets. You should be able to find all of these for under $100.
Adam
Charles,
What you had asked me (the best way to make 30-40 wooden storms)- well, it requires a fairly lengthy answer. From my point of view there are a number of factors:
1. What is your primary objective- to make the storms or to become facile with hand tools? This not rhetorical- if you have time, and want to use hand tools- fine. But a repetitive task like this will become tiresome, and I would probably opt to crank out the storms so I could move on to something more interesting.
2. I’ve done both carpentry and furniture making, and carpentry poses some challenges that you don’t encounter in cabinet making. Houses have mechanics, they are exposed to water and the elements. Most successful traditional designs evolved over time to deal with these stresses. Before you make your storms, research the design, proportions, dimensions and joinery. They are all there for a reason. How will you mount the storms? If they are exterior you will need weep holes to allow water to escape, they will probably not be as tight (lower r value) than a double glazed sealed window unit or an interior storm.
3. What wood are you going to use? For storm windows, I‘d probably favor a straight grained doug fir. It is stronger than cedar and cypress, fairly rot resistant and less likely to warp than other woods. It takes paint well. Your choice will depend on local availability and cost.
4. Mill the wood yourself if you can. For a window to be plumb and true, the wood must be stable- but in the winter storms are exposed to cold and water on their outside, and warmth and low humidity on the inside. This is quite a test. If you mill the wood in two stages and let it sit for a week before final milling (sticker it up), it will be more stable than if you don’t. If you can’t mill it yourself, see if there is a sawyer or cabinet maker in your area who will do it for you.
5. Cut the wood to length. I’d use a TS or a miter saw. Use a stop on the saw to cut all the pieces to the proper length (rails, stiles, muntins or whatever your design is). Don’t measure and mark each piece with a tape- you will have too much variability in your boards.
6. I’d rout mortises in pieces to be joined together, and use floating tenons to join them. The virtue is you can set up a jig to cut all the mortises in the rails (which will all be in the same place), then adjust it to cut all the mortises in the stiles, etc. If you make 5 storms at a time, and each has 3 rails (top, middle and bottom) and 2 stiles- then cut 15 rails against a stop on your saw, and 10 stiles. Rout all the rail mortises, then rout all the stile mortises. The jig will fit over the end of each piece and be clamped in place. The center of the jig will be cut out (mortised) and a plunge router will be captured in the jig. It will reproducibly cut each mortise. You will need to make several passes at progressively deeper plunges. FWW #158 has a piece on this, there are many others.
7. You can make the floating tenons or even buy them; if the latter, make sure your router bit will cut the correct thickness for a snug fit. It is the depth and width of the tenon (flat grain gluing area) that determines the strength of the joint; floating tenons are as strong as standard tenons when properly fitted and glued.
8. Glue up and clamp the windows. The diagonals should be equal.
9. I would prime them before glazing with an oil based primer, latex for the top coat. You can have the primer tinted and you may not need to do a second coat of latex.
Hope this helps,
Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Chuck, GlauconI think Glaucon makes many good points, but I disagree with his advice at the end. Glues fail. All glues fail. Its only a matter of when. The fit required for glued in floating tenons requires a level of accuracy Glaucon may be underestimating. PVA glues require high bondline pressure to achieve bond strength. Its usually impossible to clamp a tenon. So we're talking about interference fit tenons providing the pressure for the PVA. Epoxy would probably be the only weatherproof gap filling alternative. Maybe "disagree" is the wrong word. I think you neeed to know a whole lot more about exactly what the recommendation is, what tools and jigs are required, what glue system etc to evaluate this approach.I know it sounds silly, maybe ridiculously adherent to the past, but a drawbored joint is strong, proven, and easy to make. You don't need perfect fits. You don't have to make the whole thing by hand. At least, keep it in your back pocket and try it if Glaucon's way prooves more difficult that you expected. As for the milling of the lumber, I don't see any particular advantage to not milling it yourself. What Glaucon says is true. Lumber moves, but it doesn't matter who does the milling or when. You've got to manage its movement. Depending on how the windows attach, there may well be some draft angle. I'd recommend planing that to fit each and every opening.I agree that this is a pretty big job, depending on how many windows you have, its worth considering carefully all that you have read.Adam
Glaucon,1) My primary objective is to get the windows done. I would like to use hand tools but the more that I think about it, the longer it will take. I am basically looking at the TS and router method. I have been looking and researching both. For the TS, I am looking hybrid (Griz, Delta, Craftsman zip code saw) for more stability and dust control.2) I have one off and in the garage now. I am going to be taking pics of it and posting. I will be taking measurements as well.3) As for the wood, I was thinking white pine or poplar. My neighbor had some made up for him and the carpenter used poplar. I will look into fir though.7) I am thinking floating tenons now because of the number of storms that I have to make. The originals are mortise and tenon. My father-in-law suggested lap joints but I don't think I am going that route.8) I am going to be gluing up and clamping. Do you have any suggestions of length, style, and brand of clamps?9) Planning on priming them all before glazing. It seems as if I am in a perpetual state of painting.Thanks,
Chuck
Chuck,
Yellow pine would be a more rot resistant choice than white pine, white pine better than poplar, Poplar is prone to rot and quickly, if it is not kept perfectly painted. As mentioned before, fir would be more durable yet.
As far as glue is concerned, I'd go with titebond II. The frames, once glazed, and in place will not be subjected to racking forces which would break a joint. Pinned joints, as Adam suggests, would be an insurance against glue failure. If you pin the joints after glue up, and drill for them just shy of all the way thru, from the inside face of the frame, the pins will be less likely to be pulled out by action of weather.
Regards,
Ray Pine
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