Hey gang,
Was reading ‘In the Shaker Style’, the articles about the shaker sewing tables, with the turned column and the 3 legs, attached with sliding dovetails…
The author says he prefers to cut the dovetails by hand. I’ve cut many drawer/case dovetails by hand, but what is the technique for cutting a 3-4″ sliding dovetail by hand? Haven’t seen it referenced in any literature. Is it just like cutting a really deep half-blind dovetail? I assume the author is not talking about using the stanley 555 plane, but instead a handsaw and chisels.
A quick synopsis of the method, or a pointer (web or book) to the technique would be very much appreciated.
Thanks in advance,
Eric.
Replies
Eric,
Saint Roy of Underhill describes the process in The Woodwright's Companion.
Basically, you saw what you can, chisel what you can, and then scrape. I've forgotten what St. Roy does, but I use a Forstner bit to create a little relief at the top of the dovetail/groove (the part in the turning). I then saw, as best I can, the sides, and chisel out the waste. A #71 or #271 is very handy for smoothing the bottom and getting it parallel to the top edge. I then use a home-made scratch stock to finish. I use the same scratch stock to finish the matching parts on the legs; this ensures they have the same slope.
It's harder to describe than it is to do--really. I began to get happier with mine when I made the scratch stock.
Alan
"St. Roy" -- I love it!! He is my favorite all-time WWer. Bet he'd laugh if he heard that moniker.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
I respect a guy for even just thinking about wanting to hand cut dovetails.
But with a router, router table, fence, and a good dovetail bit it is incredibly easy to make both the male and female parts of this joint.
Biggest tip: Make the slots first, each 1/3 of the way around the post. If you can cut the leg blank into a hexagon before turning it, centering the dovetail slot on every other face is easy, and the blank won't roll. Turn it AFTER the slots are cut.
If the section of the leg where the joints are is truly round, then recess the dovetail in a dado that will put the corners of the feet beneath the tangent. Otherwise you won't have a nice interaction between the square-cut male dovetail shoulder on the foot where it meets the leg.
OK, this IS "Fine Woodworking", so you'd better at least TRY and hand cut some. But if you find you're not that good at it, don't be afraid to use a router.
4DThinker
Hi Eric,
They're a bear to cut by hand.
You may only need a slope on one side of the joint (a bare-faced dovetail). Halves your work
Options off the top of my head, in no real order of significance include:
1. cut a trench out first then pare the sides with dovetail plane, ECE still make one
2. Cut a trench out first and pare the sides with a chisel. To keep the angle uniform, use a guide block cut out from 4 x 2 with one end trimmed to a 1:8 slope. This will keep the angle steady as you pare the joint out.
Alternatively, use this guide block to guide a saw so you cut out the side of the joint at a consistent angle
3. Why a 4" long sliding dovetail? Why not a housing joint with a sliding dovetail at the end, where you need it to be, maybe 1" long - far easier to fit than a 4" long joint that , if cut correctly, needs to be a friction fit along all 4".
4. Use a router to first cut the trench/groove and then a dovetail bit to cut the sides of the joint.
5. Cut the sides of the joint approximately by saw and then pare back to the line to get a fit
I tend to use option 2,3 or 4, depending on the circumstances.
Probably a few other valid options as well
Cheers,
eddie
Edited 5/28/2003 7:04:10 AM ET by eddie (aust)
As far as I know, the dovetail plane ECE makes is only for the male half. Steve Knight still makes both. (With the included extra fence, the female plane can also be used for cutting the male half .)
http://www.knight-toolworks.com/speciality.htm#Dovetail
Believe oriental planes are still available for both applications. Of course there's always the 444 Stanley which probably has been the source of more cursing and blasphemy than any other tool ever made.
http://jonzimmersantiquetools.com/features/no_444.html
A few authors suggest using a router plane (with home made cutter?)to clean up the edges after sawing/chiseling are done.
Finally, here's an interesting plan to make a dovetail plane.
http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Shores/8907/louis.html
Jeff
These are very doable and you sure as heck don't have to have a router. Ninety-nine percent of the joinery we cut today was executed for literally hundreds of years with hand tools. If you screw up with a router on this joint the stock is lost; with hand tools you have some chance of recovery if you get a bit off-track.
This is one of those things where a picture, or series of pictures, is worth many thousands of words. Yes, you use a backsaw, chisels, and a small guide block (that will take you 15 minutes to make) to cut them. A router plane helps too. Get Ian Kirby's book The Complete Dovetail, or Albert Jackson's and David Day's book Good Wood Joints for the pictorial blow-by-blow.
If you feel like it, you can practice these on small stock while you watch the tube. Relax, cut everything a little 'fat' and pare to fit. How can you miss? You can't.
Realistically, is this the easiest thing in the world to do? No. But, how much satisfaction to you get from doing something that everybody else can do?
Like my dad used to say... if it was easy then blanks would be doing it. Fill in your own blank.
Edited 5/28/2003 10:17:21 AM ET by CHASSTANFORD
EricB75:
The traditional way to do this is as follows:
1) Layout the dovetail slot from the top (the "thin side")
2) Cut the sides to just shy of full depth with a "sliding dovetail saw" (this of course is the "skill" portion of the process!)
3) Remove the waste first with a chisel and then with a router plane to full depth (Stanley #71 or #271 depending on the size of the joint, and then;
4) Pare the sides as necessary to complete the joint.
Another thing to point out is that these joints when hand cut in the traditional manner are usually done with a very slight taper to "lock" the completed joint. One of the challenges for you will be finding/making the sliding dovetail saw. In one of Tage Frids books he has instructions for making the saw, kind of like a veneer saw with teeth on only one side. If you would like them, e-mail me and I would be happy to e-mail or fax them to you.
Mitch
I'm not sure what a sliding dovetail saw is, but sliding dovetails can be cut with a regular backsaw - tenon saw or whatever you like. I would hate for somebody to get the impression that they need to run down what appears to be a fairly esoteric (but I'm sure thoroughly useful) tool. It may be worth the effort, but I wouldn't let it keep me from cutting the joints I needed now. Or at least practicing them.
I like to use a big tenon saw, because the blade will register against the guide block which is bevelled at the angle of your choice, but can correspond to the traditional proportions for plain through and half-lap dovetails. If the cut ends up a little off the correct angle, it's relatively easy to gauge the actual angle and use that when marking out for the male part of the joint. I always cut the female part first, which may put me in the minority, I don't know.
Cutting the slot part - the female part of the joint - is relatively easy. It's the male part that requires a little ticklish chisel work, but is readily absorbed once somebody sees a picture of it being done, or is lucky enough to watch somebody do it.
Couldn't agree with you more on the backsaw (sure would like a Lie Neilsen Carcass saw!). It will work just fine. The sliding dovetail saw that Tage Frid had in his book is just easier for me. The hard thing with a bigger back saw is starting the cut straight, however as you indicated a guide block should be used here. With the SDS's two handed grip and shorter blade it is easier (at least for me) to start and keep the saw tracking straight. The flip side is that with the longer blade of a backsaw it is easier to keep the correct angle. Did someone say there was compromise involved in our craft!?!?! For anyone interested here is a couple of pictures...
Oops! Messed up on the file attachment, here are the pics..
Cool tool. I've never seen one before. Now you've gone and messed me up!!
I have to have one.
To offer a second-hand seconding of Mitch's point about creating a slight taper in the sliding dovetail joint, I am in the middle of a week-long class with Garrett Hack. A piece I'm designing in the class will ultimately require several sliding dovetail joints, each about 12" deep. His advice, to me and the class as a whole, was to create a slight taper in the joint so that most of the joint slides together easily, and the friction fit only really starts in the last few inches of the joint. When it's all the way in place, it's a nice, mechanically tight joint -- but without the taper, you're pushing a lot of surface area against a lot of surface area.
Of course, this requires some degree of handwork. And, as I said, this is a second-hand tip: I'm still in the design phase and have not yet actually cut the joint myself. I'll let you know how it goes. (That's later, when I get back home.)
David
"The world that was not made is not won by what is done" -- Mundaka Upanishad
Edited 5/28/2003 7:57:42 PM ET by davamoore
Are you contemplating a full slider or half slider?
Good question... and by full vs. half, I'm assuming you mean all or part of the way along the length, not left-side/right-side, correct?
Assuming the first case, yes, I will probably use a simple dado for part of the joint and a sliding dovetail for the rest. Given the specs of the piece, a full-length sliding dovetail is overkill.
David
"The world that was not made is not won by what is done" -- Mundaka Upanishad
Edited 5/29/2003 11:21:28 PM ET by davamoore
Well, I was thinking left side or right side until I got screwed up on the original project. This is for a cylinder, right? Or is that another post?
Actually, it's a vertical divider between two suspended shelves, in the lower part of a dining room server/buffet. I'd like part of the joint to be a dovetailed, for a little mechanical support in addition to the glue.
David"The world that was not made is not won by what is done" -- Mundaka Upanishad
Sounds like the spot for a full, tapered sliding dovetail.
Glad it's you and not me!
Eric,
CHASSTANFORD suggests a guide block to get the slope right. That sounds like a good idea. I never thought of making one. I mark the slope on the end and then saw (with a rip tenon saw) fat--again as suggested--and finish with the scratch stock. Using the scratch stock simplifies getting the two parts to match.
Alan
The guide block works when cutting both parts of the joint - to guide the saw and to put the chisel at the right angle when cutting the male part.
Guys & girls,
Just re-read original post
sliding dovetails on a turned post
Personally, I'd cut a flat and then cut the dovetail into this.
Others?
eddie
Well, Eddie there's little if any difference in the techniques involved. Yes, cutting a small flat keeps one from having to shape the shoulder with a gouge to match the curve of the cylinder. Beyond that, technique is similar whether the joint is being cut into a case side or some other flat surface.
You can cut (or leave) a flat surface, or create a shallow dado in the round to shoulder the foot, with the dovetail at the bottom of the dado. I personally have shouldered with a dado, but I encourage my students to simply leave a flat since it's easier for them to grasp and accomplish technically.
4DThinker
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