Guides for Rikon…, Laguna Bandsaws?
Jamie_Buxton
| Posted in Power Tools and Machinery on
Poke around the Laguna site, and you’ll find a list of saws they offer their ceramic guides for. One group is “Jet, Rigid, and most other 14 inch saws”. Those guides cost $310.
Replies
You are doing something wrong if that is all the life you are getting out of the cheapest of bearings. I can't address the blade size as I am not familiar with that saw. If you have had to replace the bearings five times in two years you are the problem. How much side load are you putting on the bearings? Are you putting visible tracks on the blades?
Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys.
-- P.J. O'Rourke
Take it easy smarty pants. Would you get personal if there wasn't some truth to his comments? " I showed them to my engineer buddy who said." Yhats sound a little like " I really did get laid last year at band camp". No, I don't work for Rikon but I do have the same band saw and the guides are sloppy. Save yourself the time and everybody else the head ache and sell the Rikon on ebay and by the Laguna maybe you can be the guy to bully around that scary sales team....DORK!
Are you leaving the required 1/32" gap between the blade and the guides?
Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys.
-- P.J. O'Rourke
Are you leaving the required 1/32" gap between the blade and the guides?
Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys.
-- P.J. O'Rourke
The quote is a tagline, if you click on my name you will see that the forum software calls it a personal quote. I change it from time to time and it is not aimed at anyone in particular. You can edit your preferences to include a quote or you can leave it blank.
Have you tried aftermarket bearings from a bearing shop and what type of lubricant are you using?
Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys.
-- P.J. O'Rourke
Josh , Dose the saw cut badly only when the bearings lock up?
Tom
I think the guides are sloppy no matter what. I can never get the blade drift angle right... it goes one way, and then the other - never consistent.
I might not be using a good blade. I've tried Olson, Timberwolf and another I can't think of right away. They all have bumpy welds, and don't seem to track quite properly - always a little 'sway' forward and backward.
I can't get a cut that has enough blade 'wander' so as to not have to joint the face several times (maybe once if I set for a light 1/16th,) or run it through the drum sander w/ 60 grit about ten times... work up to fine grits.
I'm not getting barrel cuts, or bowing the blade. It cuts vertically, the blade wanders. I've not been able to fix it in two years. I've consciously worked on technique, feed rate, prep and set up. I feel as though I've gotten it as good as it gets. BUT, I've seen the Laguna's in action, and I know it can get better.
Josh
Maybe this will help I don't know? Set the sides as usual 32". Instead of rite behind the gullet set them about an 1/8 back from normal. Loosen both upper and lower thrust bearings and push them to the back of the blade.
With the blade tensioned and a glove on your hand grab blade and push it towards the thrust bearings, depending on the blade width and tension, I shoot for an 1/16 to 3/16 behind the blade, when you let go. Bigger the blade the more space between beam side of blade and thrust bearing. Tighten both upper and lower thrust bearings. Push on blade again to thrust bearings and make sure you are not into gullets.
I have done this with both Euro and ceramics. On the ceramics I adjust sides to touch blade but not pinch it .
Just as hand cutting joinery is an acquired skill, this is to . If you have not tried this before, give it a shot.
With your description of blade wander, It sounds like this might work. The thrust bearing IMO is to be set close to back of the blade , the narrower the blade. The wider , Resaw type blades I concern myself more with the sides rather then the rear. It is natural for the resaw type blade to move rearward with the stresses involved with this procedure, When it hits the thrust bearing , depending on how accurately you have the sides set it will waver from side to side. This is why I back off on the thrust for resawing, I never really want to make contact with it. For curve cutting with narrow blades the thrust is more important as you don't have the rearward travel of the wider resaw blade.
Hope this helps Josh. Thanks for the apology to DGreen, He really is a great help to this site.
Tom
Hi Tom,
Thanks for your advice. I've never seen/heard of backing off the thrust bearing for resawing. I understand the concept, though, and will give it a try.
Your point about machines requiring the finesse and 'feel' of hand tools is well received. Sometimes I take machines for granted... they aren't meant to do all the work, and they work only as well as the operator whose using them. Thanks, again, for reminding me of that. I've been caught up in woes of 'did I buy a crappy machine,' too much to realize that maybe I'm slacking on my duties as a mechanic - just as important these days.
I'd never let a hand plane give me this much grief!
Regards, Josh
A laguna rep showed me that at a trade show about 7 years ago. I was having the same issues when resawing. Also it is much easier to set the drift when you are not riding on the thrust bearing. Good luck.
Tom
First of all. let me say, I haven't had your problem specifically. Yes I did own the 14" deluxe but sold it after cutting one board. I bought it because pop. wood gave it the thumbs up and it was affordable. I could tell after cutting one foot that nothing about the guide assembly was ever going to be right. Your gonna have a real hard time getting Rikon anything to perform like you want if you keep using Rikon parts. Sold mine to two kids who needed a cheap machine and they are thrilled with it. I bought a 16" laguna with the ceramic guides and will never again buy a machine because it is affordable. I expect what I purchase to perform without all kinds of rigging or replacement parts. As for sticking it to Laguna - call and ask em for the sales director. Get his cell # and give him a ring around 10.Here's the punch line - I sell Rikon and they have more warranty fixes than any company I sell. Number one on the list - bearings. ChrisP.S. - I'd watch making the claim that your EXTREMELY smart. Some people might find that a bit egotistical. Hopefully you read this as you said you wouldn't ever use Knots again/
Yeah, I exaggerated a bit when I said I'd never use KNOTS again - must be a glutton for punishment...! AND there are folks like you who offer helpful advice.I'm pretty much on board with Laguna - began talking to them while this discussion spiraled out of control, and have been in touch with a really nice guy whose not being pushy at all. Two years ago I had a guy calling me constantly, and it drove me crazy... part of the reason I got the Rikon! Stupid mistake, but I didn't have to deal with anyone but the clerk at Woodcraft, who knew me pretty well, anyway.I appreciate your input. I might keep the Rikon for quick, sloppy cuts. We'll see. How did it ever get such good ratings?We live, and we learn. I'll try to not toot my own horn so much. I know that's annoying, and asking for trouble, but I refuse to be pushed around. I've taken way too much heat from people who supposedly are in the know, only to find out later that their experience is limited to a few key points they exploit over and over.I try to be well rounded, educated and informed. I was teaching at the university level for a while in between construction gigs, but decided my happiness was in woodworking. I love it, and wish there weren't so many furious and frustrated egos lurking out there. It has been the best time in my life, a richer learning experience than formal education (minus the arguing on line)and much more fulfilling physically, spiritually and mentally than I can imagine any other career to be.I'm inspired by (and aspire to be like) the few woodworkers who can get beyond the technical gunk, and really get into the work. That, to me, seems like a balanced life.Thanks, again,Josh
What did you teach? I professed sociology and social psych for Ohio University for five years before going back to school for furniture making. Never even picked up a hammer as a kid.Chris
I taught art history, and studio art (drawing, figure drawing, printmaking and two dimensional design.)
I had a hard time with the students. 90% didn't want to have to work. I couldn't handle the lack of work ethic, and the soft policies on enforcing any sort of standard - at the schools I taught in (as an adjunct, only.)
I'd like to give it another try someday. I always say myself as a professor, and love teaching to motivated students. My experience was disappointing, though, so I went to work for myself.
Interesting life....
Josh
Yeah...sounds like an old story. I always thought that the higher level classes would be a different somehow, but that never seemed to be the case. They were actually worse cause the students were more serious about their pleas than the freshman!Chris
I have great concerns about the state of higher education - esp. the arts and social sciences (humanities....) The arts are my greatest passion, but it is so difficult to express that to the 'technology' era in terms I understand. I'm working on adapting myself in the hopes of someday re-joining academia, but in the meantime I've been consumed with the woodworking.
The business end of University is getting bad, also - again, for the humanities. LOTS of cutbacks, and elimination of tenure positions (i.e. salary, benefits, etc.) A very difficult situation. Sometimes I wonder why I didn't go into science or engineering!
Oh, well.... You gotta love what you're doing, or you end up doing it badly.
Stay well, Josh
wish i could afford a rikon and a laugna band saw
Me, too. I can barely afford the Rikon. Nothing wrong with making a plan, though. Wouldn't ya say! I think that's how all them successful people got to where they are....
Josh, From an economic standpoint I would focus on getting some good guides, I am sure they can be had . From there you would have the money for some nice blades for resawing. When you want a hand old hand plane to cut better , you purchase a Hock or Lie Neilson Iron to replace original.
Band saws are not that complicated , Although a bad component will make it to appear that way.
One more ? Do you have this machine hooked up to a dust collector. I am trying to figure out how so much dust is jamming up the bearings. I posted a couple of shots of my B/S. That little brush on the wheel is a key component IMO.
Quite honestly, I have not made up my mind about any of this - completely. My first and favorite bench plane (next to the one I made, which has a Hock assembly) is a Bailey #4 I got from Ebay. It arrived w/ no chipbreaker and a 'handyman' iron. I immediately bought a Hock blade and chipbreaker, and it works beautifully. So I understand the concept perfectly.
I drool over the massive Laguna's and MiniMax's. I admit. Partly, though, is my curiosity of what a supremely monsterous bandsaw can do. Many of the 'greats' (Maloof... et.al.) advise to get the biggest and best bandsaw you can because it is the most useful tool to have, period. That might not be justification for lots of folks, but I figure it can open up a world of possibilities. The increased power, capacity, accuracy and ability to take abuse (as in the case of Maloof who admittedly uses the machine in ways it should not be used.)
In the interest of knowledge and understanding, overcoming and gaining mastery of any and every machine is good advice, also. My table saw is not the best, but it does what I need it to do, and I really don't dream about a monster Laguna tablesaw. Bandsaws are a curious thing to me, and I'd like to know as much about what they are capable of as possible - It's partially driven by science, the need to gain experience from direct observation as well as the desire to be able to rip veneers from 30" salvaged walnut and cherry logs.
All in time.... I appreciate the pics, and I do have dust collection which works very well, but the saw seems to accumulate a lot of dust, anyway. I clean it out after every use, though. Sometimes in between large cuts.
I have a hard time giving up on anything (still have a pre-WWI bailey #6 I'm trying to tune. I don't NEED it, but I love the thing, and I'll get it working. The other Bailey #6 - also pre-WWI - is my main #6, and it works great... w/ the Hock parts...!)
Thanks for the wisdom. I do consider it with all seriousness.
Regards, Josh
Josh ,, I understand your logic, In that case should you end up purchasing a new laguna I can say you will be impressed. My tact would be when you make a deal with Laguna try and get them to cut you a deal on some new bearings for your Rikon. You would then have the best of both worlds. Rikon for curved work and laguna for resaw. Eliminating blade changing is certainly a nice thought . Good luck to you .
Tom
Not all bearings are created equal. Try to find Timken, Dodge or SKF. The Asian imports( C ) are sealed to an extent but not to the point of not needing lubrication. As an example Router bearings are considered sealed, But are "dust sealed" and still need to be lubricated. Or soak present bearings in mineral spirits blow them out, yes, blow them out and relube with a fine 2.5 to 5 weight oil( 3 in 1)
Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
Edited 7/20/2008 5:09 pm ET by BruceS
Bruce,
Thanks for the advice. I'll look for those bearings, and try cleaning the others - I've got a pile of them!
Josh
On my bandsaw I use ceramic guides, but still have the bearing for thrust. Yes, I clean and lube regularily.
Get the Dudinski Band saw book, It's loaded with tuning ideas. I use Olsen flex-back and their All/Pro with greas success.
Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
Edited 7/20/2008 5:24 pm ET by BruceS
Bruce,
I'm locating a copy of that book (the Dudinski book) as soon as I'm done tyoing here. Have not heard of that one.
Also, I've used the Olson All Pro blades, but have never seen the 'Flex-Back.' Can you recommend an online supplier. Where I live the only place to get blades - within reasonable travel distance - is Woodcraft (they sell AllPro and Timber Wolf,) or to buy online.
Have you ever tried the Woodslicer from - I think - Highland Woodworking? I've heard they are excellent, but haven't tried them yet.
Thanks, Josh
The Olson All/Pro blades are a step up from the flexback so stick with them.
OOps, my bad. That's Mark Duginske, Band Saw bench guide. Sterling Publishing Co. (sorry taunton).
I work for Eagle America http://WWW.eagleamerica.com so that is where I get my WW supplies, for the most part that is. But I will not recommend anything I won't use personally. Yes, the timber wolf blades are premium too.Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
Bruce, bearings usually are shielded or sealed and both types are usually available from most manufactures. I suspect Josh has shielded bearings as he stated dust is getting into them. If you order from McMaster-Carr you have a choice of shielded or sealed bearings. The sealed bearings have a lower RPM rating and are not a problem in most applications.
Life is what happens to you when you're making other plans .
"Life is not a success only journey." Dr. Phil
Correct to a point. Router motor bearings as far as I know are sealed. 23K = not slow.Work Safe, Count to 10 when your done for the day !!
Bruce S.
Hi Jamie,
Just wanted to let you know I've submitted a query to Laguna in regards to guides that fit Rikon machines.
In the meantime have gotten quite a few tips on how to manage the guides that are on the machine.
Thanks for your consideration, Josh
I use router bearing lube and have found it has no trouble penetrating. Sawdust seems to have no trouble sucking the lube out of shielded or sealed bearings.
The router bearing lube is quite thin and I apply a drop or two once a month. My saw gets used 2 to 3 continuos hours per day.
When I was in the tool biz I sold hundreds of bandsaws and premature bearing failures were invariably due to improper adjustment or lack of lube. The bold faced type was not meant as a reflection on your knowledge or skills but more as a reflection of my experience. I can see how it could be taken otherwise, I am not always the most diplomatic sort but I mean well!
I commend you on your efforts to get to the root of the problem and have no doubt you will eventually succeed.
Keep at it and let us know the outcome, I wish you the best.
Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys.
-- P.J. O'Rourke
Thank you. I'll try to let you all know how things pan out.
Josh
Hi Josh,
Click this link: http://www.carterproducts.com .
They sell bandsaw guides, bearings, conversion kits, etc. They have kits for your Rikon.
Don't bother with the Rikon folks, once they consider themselves done helping you, that's it--they're done. Know this for fact because they got tired of me. I have an 18" Rikon that took some fiddlin with to get it running tip top form, mostly due to brainfart engineering and shoddy sino-craftsmanship.
Chris.
How about some specifics? How much experience do you have with said machines? How about some copies of your communicaitions with said companies? I have more confidence in sino-craftmenship than in american ignorant .Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys. -- P.J. O'Rourke
American Ignorant,
I have posted quite a bit about my experience with my 18" Rikon. Do a little research through my past postings regarding Rikon bandsaws and you will find every thing you have questions about.
I too have no problems with sinocraftsmanship. Alas, they too can produce crap just like any other manufacturing facility anywhere in the world. It is up to the inspectors of the individual companies--Rikon, Jet, Powermatic, etc., etc.,--to insure the company is getting the best built machine for their inventory. The oriental philosophy is to waste nothing. If it's made, it needs to be sold, even if it is substandard craftsmanship or materials. This information comes from Curt Wilke of Wilke machinery (Bridgewood and Yorkcraft fame). He has been in the import business for a long time and has great insight of what's going on.
Furthermore, when I wrote my post I put 'brainfart' engineering ahead of shoddy sinocraftsmanship. Yes there was some shoddy craftsmanship done on my machine, but the biggest problems were due to engineering. Yes, Rikon tries to be innovative in their design and function, but they overlooked some areas (shafts, machining, welds) which lessens the quality of the machine. These oversights are generally what gives the owner of the machine headaches and frustration, YOU can realize what I'm refering to by researching past posts made concerning Rikon bandsaws. It is in these posts that I address issues and fixes that can be made to saw to bring it up to good working standards, like mine is now.
I am actually a Rikon fan, I own the 18" bandsaw and their belt/disc sander. That being said, the folks at Rikon will blow you off if you repeatedly call them with problems concerning your machine. Initially, their service is great, but this is only to a point. If you want proof, go and buy one of their machines and enjoy the experience for yourself.
Now, go find someone else to pester.
Gooday,
Chris.
38115.31 in reply to 38115.29 Chris,
That's what I'm screamin'!!! Rikon is very good at honoring their warranty and don't mind sending parts even if the problem was your own goof. Not too many places are like that.
37147.4 in reply to 37147.1 Heeeyy Brian,
Welcome to Knots.
I too have the 18" Rikon and love the saw immensely. It is truly a wood devouring brute.
38115.29 in reply to 38115.28 Just a comment on a good Rikon experience. I have the 10-345 on a shop fox base. I have no tracking problems, it's been a great saw. Last Saturday evening the bracket that holds the lower guide bearings broke. I emailed Rikon tech support. Got an email back Monday morning asking for serial # address etc. replied with info, two minutes later I recieved an email confirming that the parts would be shipped that afternoon. They also threw in at no charge the blade insert which I had broke myself. I am very satisfied with the saw and service. Chris Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys. -- P.J. O'Rourke
Don,
Do you write political attack ads for a living or what? Like political attack ads you only use snippets that can be taken out of context pertaining to the conversation in it's entirety. I invite folks who care to research those postings you noted, in fact, read the whole thread, it's only 31 messages and a good conversation at that.
For the record, Don, you fail to mention that 38115.29 to 38115.28 was a message wrote by Tinter to "ALL' on the thread. His name is also Chris. This is quite underhanded in your thinking to leave a third party reader to believe that message was wrote by me.
Josh is having problems with his bandsaw, he is getting frustrated with the folks at Rikon. I turned Josh on to a place where he could remedy his problem and informed him Rikon will only go so far. This is not necessarily a Rikon problem as most companies will eventually ignore the person having the problem, after all, the sale was made, they got their money, business moves on. 'Sucks to be you'.
Chris.
I am grateful.... Thank you.
You are so right about Rikon giving you the cold shoulder. They must not care to be in business for very long, or something.?!
Thanks, again,
Josh
You are welcome. Chris.
I recently got a new bandsaw that had side bearings. I hated them, couldn't get an acceptabe resaw no matter how I adjusted them and then, one seized up and actually broke off the casting where it screws in. Never did find the bearing, so I'm assuming it seized up and rolled in to some dark and creepy corner of the shop. Anyway, I chucked the side bearing assemblies in trash and got regular assemblies so I can use hardwood for the side load. It's great, you can put hardwood right against the blade and they last forever. This probably seems a little a$$ backwards to those that pay homage to their innovative and/or high tech bandsaws, but it works and it has worked well for many people for many years.
http://www.ithacawoodworker.com
I think a smaller bandsaw can be made to resaw reasonably well, however I use an 18 inch machine for resawing and 1 1/8' blades. I have not seen a conventional guide that would take hardwood or composite blocks for this machine. Keeping the bearings clean and lubed has resulted in outstanding results although I would not be opposed to alternative guides. Once one gains an understanding of the capabilities and limitations of a given guide system I think they will all give acceptable results.Giving money and power to government is like giving whiskey and car keys to teenage boys. -- P.J. O'Rourke
"Understandings of the Capabilities and limitations of a given guide system"
So true.
Tom
Hey Josh,
I am reluctantly joining this conversation .... after reading your post I went out to the shop and installed a 1/4" blade on my saw (I have the same saw) I was able to adjust all the bearings to the correct tolerances. I must admit the engineering of the adjustments to the guides (especially the lower ones) is poor at best. But once adjusted properly the saw runs and preforms like a dream. I use the saw for resawing and for some curved work as well. My saw is just about a year old and I have not seen the problems you speak about.
I am wondering if perhaps after two years of use, degree has built up behind the slot that allows the bearing to travel. I am sure you know the machine should allow the use of an 1/8" blade. (I have not tried one yet) I just think with with some work you can get the machine to operate properly.
When you clean the bearings are you using compressed air ? Are you blowing the fine dust into the bearings... there has to be a fix, keep at it.
And no I don't work for Rikon either
good luck!
John
Sorry for the reluctant feelings. This conversation's been dragged through the mud....
I'll try the 1/4" blade again. I remember not being able to get the bearings back far enough. The guide assembly was hitting the trunion - it basically ran out of room.
Interestingly, though, my brother bought the same saw a year after I got mine (I got mine shortly after they came on the market) and his has some slight modifications. Nothing major, and the guides pretty much look the same, but now I'm wondering if they shortened something on the back side of the bottom guide.
I know I'll get yelled at by KNOTS regulars for not knowing the answers off hand, for not sprinting to the shop w/ dial calipers and manual, for not having my 'ducks in a row,' but I don't care anymore.
Glad you like yours, and "no" I don't use compressed air, and "yes" I keep it clean.
Also, I've come up with a 'resolution.' May not be THE solution, but I've had about as much as I can take of this discussion.
Thanks Y'all.
Josh
Edited 7/24/2008 6:46 pm ET by Josh Whipkey
Josh,
One of the best bandsaw resources around is "Iturra Design", at (866) 883-8064. Louis Iturra provides all kinds of part solutions (actually makes many of the items woodworking catalogs sell) and has a catalog that is mainly info on bandsaws.
Give him a call, tell him of your woes and I'm sure he'll offer some suggestions, and although he may sell the goods you may need, you'll get a straight scoop. also ask him to send you a catalog (free).
Good luck.
Tony Z.
I assume you have looked at the Carter guide systems. They sell retrofits for lots of machines and have been around a long time. They get very good reviews. I am in the midst of replacing my guide setup with the Carter ones. They are not that expensive, but beware, there is a reason they never show the machines in the backgrounds. You may need to do some figuring to mount them depending on which machine you have. Some mount directly, but I have an 18" General and should have ordered a couple of other bits when I did.
Brad
edit: I see it was already mentioned.
Edited 7/24/2008 4:38 pm ET by brad805
Brad,
It has been mentioned, but I'm not sure what your warning is in reference to. Are you saying that the kits 'sorta' fit, or that they might be fussy depending on the saw?
The Rikon guides come off with the loosening of one set screw. If I go with the Carter's I'm hoping it's the entire assembly, which seems to be the case just from looking at the photo.
Thanks, Josh
P.S. I WILL do my homework before buying!
Edited 7/24/2008 6:48 pm ET by Josh Whipkey
I looked at the Rikon site and found your manual. It looks the Carter kit for the Deluxe 14" Rixon may bolt directly on in your case. I waited two weeks for my kit to arrive (UPS not Carter fault), sat down at the machine and tried to fit it only to realize I needed some other parts to get it to fit. The adjustment shaft on my 18" GI is 1 1/8" dia and the cup from the carter for mine was 3/4". After searching Carter's site I found they had some other mounting parts, but I was not about to wait, so I am having a piece fabricated to fit. I have to build a small piece to mount the bottom guides too. The kit looks golden for yours, but double check.
Good luck
Brad
I have endeavored to be polite in my correspondence with you even ignoring your ignorance and unprovoked attacks. I think a reasonable person reading the posts you and I have exchanged would conclude that you were the one who stamped his feet, threw himself on the floor and whined like a baby.
It is obvious that you require a great deal of coddling and hand holding for every little purchase you make and have unreasonable expectations for the inexpensive tools you buy.
As I told you I have sold and serviced hundred of bandsaws equipped with ball bearing guides, I don't need to have experience with your model to understand how to get reasonable life out of ball bearings. To think that you can operate them in an enviroment that suck lubricant out of them and not have to replenish the lubricant is ludicrous. Did you think Rikon has their bearings built just for them? No other machine uses those particular bearings? Would you think that would be a way to hold down costs on one of the most inexpensive bandsaws on the market?
If you want a bandsaw to last a lifetime, buy a Tannewitz. You get what you pay for. If you continue to purchase the cheapest tools possible and expect world class performance and longevity with no tuning, you are in for a lifetime of disapointment and will continue to be a pain in the #### to service departments to the point where they like most reasonable people will cease to deal with you.
I don't teach pigs to dance and your tantrums have grown tiresome. Further posts from you will be disregarded.
Goodbye, good luck and good riddance.
................................................
You can't wait for inspiration. You have to go after it with a club.
Jack London
I guess the reason and enjoy reading these kinds of threads is because it always thrills me when I am not the one involved in the harangue. It's kind of like watching that ultimate fighting business:O
http://www.ithacawoodworker.com
I browse posts when I am tired towards the end of the day, mainly to pick up useful advice and read how the rest of the world thinks.
Being an Englishman, I sometimes marvel that our language can be so twisted and convoluted that the communicants in the discussions seem able to read meanings that I just do not see. From such I suppose wars are started and so called "friendly fire" emanates.
No person real or imaginary based upon persons living or dead is inpugned by the above remarks and mufti has just left the building.
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