I am considering the Griz 1023, and ha da question about the various models in that range. There is actually a pretty small price difference between the “s” and “z” models, but I remember someone here saying that he/she wouldn’t go for the “z” model because you could get into a better cabinet saw for the price. Perhaps it was an older post, and there was a larger price difference at the time. Since the Grizzly web-site isn’t all that informative, I am wondering what people’s thoughts are on the choice between the two.
Thanks,
Tom Watson
A new member
Replies
The difference is the fence and the motor cover. The "S" version has the basic grizzly fence, while the "Z" version has their ShopFox fence. It adds on less than $100 to the price, and it would be hard to find a good quality fence for less than $100. I can't say if the ShopFox fence is good enough, or if it would be better to go with another vendor's fence.
If you go with the 1023S, get the motor cover for better dust collection ($35).
I have a vintage 90/91 1023 and it works just fine, but the basic fence that came with it is a piece of %$%#!!! If the current "S"I also got the extension arms and built my own table extension (which doubles as a router table).
My inclination would be to go for the "Z" (just $100 more). Youget better dust collection with the cover, and the ShopFox fence has to be better than the basic fence. Maybe someone else out there can relate their experience with ShopFox fences.
Glad to see you considering the 1023. It is an excellent saw. I bought the 1023slx last summer. Love it. I looked at the z but I liked the bessy style fence better compare the styles and decide which is best. I think you will like either. The differences other than that, I can't see. I went back and looked at the specs and the 1023s is 7 pounds more shipping weight, but that is probably due to the extra weight in the rails (not for sure just a guess) I like the 7ft rails it makes cutting bigger stuff a lot easier. I priced getting the 1023 s and then buying the 7ft rails separately. There really was not a difference (back then, cant say now). If you do an advanced search on the 1023 you will see a lot of stuff. Some have said the saws from a long time ago had problems, but mine was dead flat and right on. Customer service is excellent and you will enjoy it no matter the model you get. For me I just like the bessy style fence. Here is a link to a post I made earlier if you have any questions just drop me a note. Good luck on the decision.
http://forums.taunton.com/tp-knots/messages?msg=23408.5
Tom' I have the G1023s, have not seen the Z model, just in the catalog. The shopfox classic fence on the 1023S is a biesmier clone and is a quality fence. I removed the plastic fence covering and replaced it with 1/2" birch plywood. There is a slight bump in the plastic piece I had and it was easier to replace it then figure out how to machine it flat. I have the standard rails, I moved the rails 8" or so to the right. I have 38 " of rip capacity to the right ,no rip at all to the left.Grizzly supplied the correct bit and tap , drilling cast iron is almost as easy as wood.Go slow tapping, use a lubricant. This is a good alternative to the long rails, the cost of the rails was not an issue, the length was though,my shop is only 20 wide.
I've had this saw about 6 years ,no problems ,lots of use.
mike
I have owned a 1023s for about four years and love it. During my selection process I also gave the 'Z' version some consideration. However, I saw a few on-line product reviews that indicated a little dis-satisfaction with the fence. They seemed to center around the extra moving parts and adjustments.
Before purchase, we had an opportunity to visit the Springfield Grizzly store. One of their demo/instructor sales guys spent about one hour with us. He started us off in the back-shop where they build some of their displays and other things. He demonstrated a 2-year old machine that showed some signs of wear but it sounded pretty much like the newer machine in the display-demo area.
When I asked him about some of the comments regarding the Z fence, moving parts and adjustments he gave me the "good-Grizzly-guy" response. "They are both fine machines and I selected the 1023S."
Edited 7/25/2005 10:23 am ET by RonB
tswguitar,
I do not have experience with this saw, but I have experience with Grizzly -- BAD EXPERIENCE!!!!
My suggestion to you is not to purchase this saw mail order.
If you can get to a Grizzly plant and pick the saw up yourself, that changes things a little. That way, when you need to get replacement parts and/or return the machine, it won't be such a hassle.
Edited 7/25/2005 10:44 am ET by Matthew Schenker
I have a 1023 sl and love it. It's about 4 years old. The customer service was very good. It arrived missing a latch for the motor cover. They sent a new one promptly. The saw works great and the fence is excellent. Dead on.
There are more old drunkards than old doctors. Ben Franklin
BLEUBASSPLYR,
You wrote this:
"It arrived missing a latch for the motor cover. They sent a new one promptly."Oh, how many times have I heard from people about Grizzly missing parts! In my case, Grizzly sent a drill press with missing parts and also crushed parts. The cover was crushed, and there was other damage to the machine that I somehow missed until I had the drill press for a few weeks (for example a dented motor, a couple of bad teeth on the height column, and a loose tension spring). Grizzly sent me the original "replacement parts" for the cover, but I would have had to take apart the machine to fix it, a job I chose not to get involved with. The other things, well, I guess I just live with it.If this were a store purchase, it would have gone right back. Even if I had bought it online from Amazon, I could have returned it for free. Grizzly, on the other hand, would have charged me for return shipping, plus I would not get my original shipping fee refunded. That amounts to $100 for the privilege of temporarily owning a $180 drill press. I'm literally better off throwing it away.People had warned me repeatedly not to buy a Grizzly machine, but I just had to give them a try. I'm passing on to others the same message people gave to me, a message I now wish I had listened to.I have Grizzly's "best" drill press in my shop. It's a source of anger every time I look at it. I can't even sell the thing, since I am positive no one would want to buy it because of the damage it arrived with. People at the junkyard will one day get a kick out of seeing me dump this Grizzly drill press in the trash bin.Don't let this happen to you!
Edited 7/26/2005 12:07 pm ET by Matthew Schenker
Sorry to hear of your bad experience with Grizzly. I can only tell about what I've experienced and heard. I've heard of people returning things and having new ones shipped. Did you call them and explain your plight and the fact that you would be posting bad pr about them? If that doesn't get them going nothing will.There are more old drunkards than old doctors. Ben Franklin
BLEUBASSPLYR,
Yes, I spoke with Grizzly about the drill press, which is model #7943. They offered to send replacements for the crushed and missing components. When I asked about returning it, they said I would have to pay for return shipping and would not get refunded for the original $58 of shipping.If I can guess, it looks like this machine was smashed somehow or dropped, or run over by a forklift. Then, passing Grizzly's quality control, it was packaged and sent to lucky me. However it happened, this kind of damage took a lot of force. The packaging was not damaged, so it must have happened in the Grizzly factory.I think Grizzly felt the machine was usable. As I mentioned in this discussion, I discovered some other problems with the machine after I began to use it more, and it has developed new issues after pretty light use.So, since Grizzly would not take back the drill press on reasonable terms, my only recourse is to report my experiences on woodworking boards to help other people avoid this dilemma. I'll do this every chance I get. I'll throw the Grizzly drill press in the garbage one day when I've had enough! At that point, I guess I'll stop writing about it.
Edited 7/26/2005 3:58 pm ET by Matthew Schenker
Wow! That stinks. I don't blame you for being angry.There are more old drunkards than old doctors. Ben Franklin
Yes, indeed!I don't get the feeling Grizzly cares much. There are too many people willing to make the mistake I made. If a good percentage of woodworkers make one mistake with Grizzly, and buy just one tool, they are doing well.I'm heading out to Las Vegas this weekend for the AWFS show. I like to say that I don't gamble, but I would have been better off playing the slot machines for an afternoon than buying the Grizzly 7943 drill press.
"I don't get the feeling Grizzly cares much." Keep in mind, you were dealing with an individual, obviously one who was an idiot, but an individual nonetheless. When I don't like the answer I'm getting from the person on the phone, I work my way up the ladder until I get the "right answer." Chances are, if you do that, the "one who was an idiot" gets his/her attitude adjusted toot sweet. Grizzly, as a corporation, does care very much about customer service, but there are individuals in the company who either just don't get it, or they let a bad hair day interfere greatly with the customer service approach.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
FG,
I think you meant to send your reply to Matthew Schenker. I've had only good experiences with Grizzly.
I hope all is well.
BleuThere are more old drunkards than old doctors. Ben Franklin
forestgirl,
You wrote this:
"Grizzly, as a corporation, does care very much about customer service, but there are individuals in the company who either just don't get it, or they let a bad hair day interfere greatly with the customer service approach."Maybe Grizzly does care. But it is not evident from my experience. For the record, I pursued this both on the phone and via e-mail, so it was not just one individual. Unless, of course the same individual was handling both my e-mail and my telephone inquiries.My choice was to pay an additional $70 to ship the machine back to Grizzly and lose my original $58 of shipping, or live with the damage. Remember, what I originally thought of as relatively minor damage turned out to be more.Bottom line: I got screwed.
Matthew, I don't want to burn a bridge between us here, but honestly you sure pump that one bad-drill-press problem for all it's worth and then some. I wish I could enter a time machine and go back and volunteer to "handle" that problem for you, 'cause I'll bet dollars to donuts that I could have gotten you a new DP free of charge and stayed friends with Grizzly at the same time.:>)forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
forestgirl,
I don't want to burn any bridges either. You and I have had several fine interactions on this board over the past couple of years.It may seem to you that I am making more of this drill press issue than it is worth, but this one experience is the only exprience I have had with Grizzly. Looking at how they handled my situation, I think you can understand why I would be very upset. I got a defective tool, and really had no way to remedy the situation except to pay $130 in total shipping fees to return the tool to them. Maybe if I had inisted on speaking with another customer service rep, and then another one and another one, it might have been different, but come on.I actually think I have been pretty reasonable about it. I'm careful to say that this is MY experience, that if someone went to the Grizzly factory it might be better, and I am careful to point out specifically which machine my comments are based on. With every post in this subject, I am quick to state which tool I bought, down to the model number.
Edited 7/31/2005 2:26 pm ET by Matthew Schenker
Hi Matthew, I totally agree that you are very clear and responsible when you relay the sad drill press story, and I appreciate the fact that you actually provide complete information (and wish that more people would do the same). Glad to call you an "e-friend" or at least acquaintance. :-)
This part I have a comment on: "Maybe if I had insisted on speaking with another customer service rep, and then another one and another one, it might have been different...." UnUnUh -- never move laterally, always move vertically, up to be specific.
MS: "So, you're saying that the only way I can get the DP replaced is to pay the shipping back to your warehouse."
CS: "Yes, Mr. Schenker, that is correct."
MS: "I'm sorry, that simply isn't going to work for me. Who is your supervisor, please?"
CS: "Mr. Jones is my supervisor."
MS: "Fine, thank you for trying to help. Please connect me with Mr. Jones.
Chances are, in a situation such as this one, the supervisor will give the "correct" answer. Almost guaranteed the next guy up will.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
Jamie, this is laughable if not an outright insult. Now you're scripting phone calls to customer service for Matthew? Please.
It's up to Matthew to decide what's insulting and what's not. Since I had a pleasant, friendly email from him in my in-box this morning, it seems he didn't have a problem with it. forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
I'm glad the both of you are still buddies.
A line from Matthew's post (a few above this one) and one with which I wholeheartedly agree:
Mail order from a hit-or-miss seller like grizzly is playing roulette.
'nuff said.
Edited 8/1/2005 1:30 pm ET by Stanford
Works with many but does not work with DirectTV. When I could not understand the DTV person (thick accent), I ask to speak with a supervisor. After 15 minutes of haggling, complaining, threatening, and a few well chosen "bad" words, I asked just where was she located since her boss was not there. She was in India!!
I guess that rules out physical attacks. :)
I called back an hour later and got someone who sorta spoke American. Yes, American, not English. We do speak somewhat differently from our friends across the water. Although, I think their grammer is better -- just some of the words are "wrong".
A bad day woodworking is better than a good day working -- yes, I'm retired!
If the drill press was smashed, run over, etc, you should have filed a claim with the shipper. Once it leaves Grizzly(or anywhere else) the liability falls on the shipper, unless the goods are just not packed well, and none of the machines I bought from them were packed badly. That's not to say the shippers apparently didn't try to damage anything, though. My bandsaw was dropped on the corner of the box but nothing inside was damaged at all. Any time something is shipped and there's no indication of damage on the outside, a "Concealed Damage" claim is supposed to be filed. If this is filed, the shipper's insurance usually checks into why it was damaged and a determination is made. If these forms aren't filed, nothing is going to be given away. Instead of going after Grizzly, I would have called the transporter.Just out of curiosity, why is a $180 drill press "the best", unless it's the best for that amount of money? I don't know how long you have owned this drill press, but if you keep going up the food chain at Grizzly, you may get the results you want. Did you send photos to Grizzly when you received it?
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
highfigh,
The shipper did not cause the damage. Tha packaging was not damaged, not even right where the hood was crushed and the other dents occurred. So how could the shipper have caused it?Anyway, when I spoke to Grizzly, they said nothing about this.
That's pretty interesting since the same thing happened to me with a server from Sun Microsystems at my office. The packaging was perfect and the machine case was bent all out of whack. Sun would never have packaged a machine in this condition. I can only guess that it was dropped from a serious height and landed just right on the box so as to not cause damage. Sun replaced it with only a minor hassle.So far, the two items I purchased from Grizzly, a jointer and 1023 tablesaw have arrived with damage packaging but the contents of both were fine. Their customer service is great and never had an issue.
It is not unheard of for a shipper to repackage/crate an item that has been extensively damaged in transit. With all due respect, your constant remidner of the problem is casued by your decision to not return the item and then pursue the issue of the extra shipping costs.
Doug,
You wrote this:
"With all due respect, your constant remidner of the problem is casued by your decision to not return the item and then pursue the issue of the extra shipping costs."With all due respect, the problem is Grizzly shipped me a (let me gain my composure) sub-par piece of woodworking machinery. My "decision" to return the item would have cost me $70 for the privilege of sending back a machine that was crushed and missing parts, and a loss of an original $58 in shipping. My "decision" then would have been to play roulette with another Grizzly machine. Or I could have decided not to go with Grizzly, in which case I'm simply out $70.But yes, I could have returned it and then spent who knows how long fighting for my shipping money back.I decided that the damage was frustrating, but not worth all the extra cash and time. But then the machine developed other problems after light use. Only in hindsight can you say that it was obvious that I should have returned this machine.I gambled and lost. I won't do it again, and I think it's important to tell my tale to others.Edited 7/27/2005 3:07 pm ET by Matthew Schenker
Edited 11/19/2006 8:25 am ET by MatthewSchenker
If you've ever worked with really quality machinery you will find Grizzly stuff to be average, at best.
The bright side is that they don't charge a lot for it so in essence you're getting about what you pay for (an immutable law, no?) with a rare exception here or there at either end of the quality scale.
Edited 7/28/2005 2:54 pm ET by Stanford
There is an underlying supposition in your remark that "quality" saws perform better than "average" saws. I've used "quality" equipment and I own a Grizzly TS. The "quality" saw will undoubtable last longer but, in my experience, it doesn't produce a cut that is superior to the equivalent "...average, at best" saws. If you have some clear and convincing arguments that there are material differences in the quality of the cuts, I think it would make a great topic for discussion.
The last tablesaw I worked with was a Felder K-700 S. Grizzly does not come close by any measure.
You need to argue this out with the Delta, Jet, and Powermatic folks (hobby grade stuff). The Felder is in another league and any kind of comparison would be absurd.
Edited 7/28/2005 4:12 pm ET by Stanford
That doesn't address my question: do you have any evidence that the quality of the cut in the wood is significantly better when comparing machine of X horsepower, Y blade diameter and assuming an equivalent fence system. I'm not taking about power feeders and sliding tables, I talking about the basic purpose of the TS which is to produce an accurate and reproducible cut assuming an appropriate feed rate for the thickness and density of the wood.
Yes, my unfortunate experience cutting 12/4 Maple and other species with a Grizzly cabinet saw vs. my experience with other saws over the years is my proof. Did I photograph the cutlines in an astounding display of clairvoyance and in anticipation of a debate on this forum? No.
Would I rather hear anecdotal evidence from other woodworkers instead of supposedly objective magazine reviews? Yes. Do I think that owners of Grizzly equipment have a strange attachment to their machines? Yes. Do I think that Grizzly is oftentimes the only woodworking equipment those singing its virtues have ever used? Yes. Do I think that Jet and Delta are likely the only other points of reference for the remaining Grizzly owners not covered in my previous sentence? Yes.
I did not own the Grizzly saw, but it was in a shop of an outfit known to maintain and tune their equipment regularly. FWIW, the other guys hated the Grizzly. They tended to wait until an older Powermatic was available. When they couldn't wait they would rip wide and clean up the cut on an old Oliver jointer. All the tablesaws in the shop had CMT blades, so that wasn't the problem. All tablesaws were set up with rip blades. Crosscutting was done on old Delta 12" radial arm saws.
I don't know what model number the Grizzly was but it was one of their large cabinet saws and had a 5hp motor. The saw was not underpowered but must have had some sort of arbor/runout problem to produce the lousy cuts it did. Guys told me it cut that way from day one. The cutlines were burned and swirled whether hand feeding or using the power feeder.
FWIW, I leased bench and machine time (six months) from a millwork shop to complete a couple of commercial jobs I did. I used the Grizzly maybe ten times and then waited on the Powermatics (old ones) like everybody else. No problems noted with the old PMs.
I think Grizzly is kind of like slinging $hit against the wall. Eventually something will stick. If you hassle customer service enough, pack and return 1,000 lb saws often enough you might end up with the one charmer that came off the Taiwanese assembly line that month. That's a crapshoot I don't want to be involved with.
Edited 7/28/2005 5:05 pm ET by Stanford
Thanks for your observations and I agree that it sounds like excessive arbor run-out problem caused by a bad or failing arbor bearing. If they were that fastidious about maintenance, I wonder why they didn't replace it.
I can readily understand this happening in a production environment when comparing Grizzly against older Powermatics and equivalent machines and I would not defend your "average, at best" saw in that specific application. But the question originally poised is regarding equipment that is not in a production environment. When I received my Grizzly I mic'ed it at all critical points and found it well within acceptable tolerances and comparable to what I would expect in most small to medium shop production machines. I have no doubt that, over time, the more expensive machines will probably outlast the average machines with respect to the motor and bearings. But until the bearings begin to fail or the motor loses power, I maintain that the quality cuts will be equivalent.
I'm not defending my purchase decision since I could afford a much more expensive machine but I could simply could not justify the cost difference based on performance for the 4 or 5 hours hours a week that the TS gets used. I suspect that my usage is probably higher than most weekend wood warriors.
I see little point in pouring water on someone's decision because they are interested in equipment that does not meet your standard of what constitutes "quality" unless it is clearly sub-standard, inadequate for the stated purpose or a dangerous product; then it is appropriate to point out the machine's specific deficiencies rather than simply crapping on it because it is Taiwanese or Chinese or any other type of 'ese'.
I guess my point is that most of us try to do the best we can with what we have or what we can afford. In my opinion, we should be here to learn and to participate in order to provide positive and constructive support so we all can become better woodworkers.
Of course the key sentence in my post above was the fact that the guys on the shop floor said the thing was crappy since day one. This is not really a maintenance issue. Why they didn't take time to replace or return the saw for refund I honestly don't know. I was not employed by the shop. They may have since returned the saw or had the arbor replaced. Who knows. I do know that the guys on the floor hated the thing and were reluctant to use it. I was too.
Doug, you have to take the good opinions with the bad opinions on public forums. I'm simply posting my experience with the equipment. You're attempting to parse the matter into some sort of logic problem and exercise in semantics.
I hear a lot of people talk about how great Grizzly customer service is. My question to these folks is why did you have to call customer service in the first place on brand new equipment?
It's as simple as this - you get what you pay for. There is no free lunch. There are no great tablesaws for $899.99.
"The last tablesaw I worked with was a Felder K-700 S. Grizzly does not come close by any measure." Well, doh!
"I hear a lot of people talk about how great Grizzly customer service is. My question to these folks is why did you have to call customer service in the first place on brand new equipment?" First of all, Grizzly CS has it's down moments, as almost any company's does, so they're not perfect. Re: the second part of that statement, "because mistakes happen and customer service needs to take care of them." There isn't any company out there that is so good they don't need a customer service division.
There's no doubt I'd take a Felder or a Minimax over a Grizzly any day of the week if it were given to me (or, if I won the lottery). That's not the point, never has been in these discussions. The point is, on a restricted budget, there are good buys out there, and the Grizzly 1023S is one of them. Same with their 8" jointers. And several of their bandsaws. Different strokes for different folks and different budgets.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
You know FG, I'd bet a payday, that I could lay two boards cut (one by my 1023, and one by a Felder or whatever) with the same dimensions down side by side, and no one could not tell the difference. I mean at the end of the day if it's strait and square what is the difference?
The 1023 I got about a year ago is every bit as good at a unisaw or whatever. It's flat and cuts strait. What else do I need it to do? Now someone else could brag that they spent three times the money that I did, but I'll let them win that argument.
My experiences with Grizzyl (3 major purchases now) have all been good. I had the saw arrive damaged (in shipping) I refused the shipment and another one was on the way. I second your comment about everybody having a clunker in CS sometimes. I remember a guy here not long ago that got dinged by a unisaw purchase and it took some extra effort with CS, but in the end he got satisfaction. Go to go, I here my big green machine calling!
Stanford,
Apologies for being frank, but there is a lot of yada in your post.
Quote:
"I did not own the Grizzly saw, but it was in a shop of an outfit known to maintain and tune their equipment regularly. They tended to wait until an older Powermatic was available."
Unquote.
In Engineering terms, a table saw is about as simple as it gets, so are most pieces of woodworking machinery. In an outfit who tune and maintain their equipment regularly, they would correct any of the extremely simple faults, that creep into these simple machines. For the same flat table, same aligned and steady fence, same true arbor, same blade alignment to miter slots etc. and the same horsepower, there will be no difference in how one cuts against the other. The only difference will be design features, such as left tilting, sliding tables, etc.
If a Frizzly does not perform, it will take me at most 1/2 hour to diagnose the problem, it's about turning a blade, without run-out in an accurate setting. Not much in life, is as simple as that.
Yet the saw still did an incredibly $hitty job and apparently from the first day it was put into use. Had the firm been lucky enough to have your engineering talent on board I'm sure this whole thing would have been a non-issue.
Edited 7/28/2005 7:43 pm ET by Stanford
How long ago was this?
Just an honest guy here who does not buy because of a label or a name, but looks at what he buys. Much as a physician examines his patient. In other words, I don't work with perceptions, but rather facts.
Your whole post is a misty grey cloud. No facts as to what was actually wrong with this Frizzly, perhaps it was the paint color?
About four and a half years ago. I have no idea what was wrong with the bloody thing. I was leasing shop space. The machine cut was lousy - burned and swirled when fed by hand or Grizzly stock feeder. I was told it cut like this from the moment it was delivered. I have no idea why the company did not immediately return the saw.
Nobody wanted to use it. I'd be willing to bet the saw is gone by now. The company's regular employees avoided it like the plague. It stood mostly unused. When it was used the cuts were made wide and cleaned up on a jointer.
What is it about this that you don't understand?
"I have no idea why the company did not immediately return the saw." That's the part that stands out. They got a defective product, and instead of getting the problem taken care of, they moan and groan and gritch (not sure if the b-word flies on this board) and the experience is used a "proof" that the manufacturer sucks.
I've said this so many times, but I'll say it again: It isn't that Grizzly necessarily makes the greatest machines of all time. The point is, for the dollar spent some of their machines are incredibly good values. If a person is on a limited budget, s/he simply needs to do some research and find out which machines give the biggest bang for the buck. If there's a problem at delivery, get it taken care of. Your friends in the aforementioned shop need only look in the mirror to find the source of their problem.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
"What is it about this that you don't understand?'
How someone could buy a new machine, which does not work, not diagnose the problem and not send it back. Sounds like a bunch of hillbillies to me....
The company I've mentioned is a fairly nice sized millwork outfit - lots of custom mouldings, doors, etc. Very busy. If you held a gun to my head I would simply say they were too busy to fool with it. It certainly appeared that way. I do know that there are no Grizzly distribution points close so I suppose that return shipping may have been an issue. A couple of grand fell through the cracks on a bum saw in an outfit that was bound to have several million dollars in annual gross revenue. I have no idea why they bought the saw in the first place and no idea why they left the thing sitting there.
I've already repeated, several times, what the employees thought of the unit and what I saw with my own eyes by using the saw on a handful of occassions. It went mostly unused because the cut quality was poor and I was told it was so from day one.
If you've ever been around a decent sized millwork operation when the orders start pouring in I think you can understand why worrying about a tablesaw would be the last thing on their minds. They were busy. They weren't worried about the saw. They left it there to worry about another day. They took a little hit in the wallet on the saw.
Edited 7/29/2005 2:03 pm ET by Stanford
OK Stanford, you have made your point.
Grizz is leading the market by a long shot at the moment, when it comes to small to medium sized machines with sales, service and technical support. They are doing this by selling s%&t to the American people.
Something wrong with this equation, will be interesting to see what happens 5 years from today.
Edited 7/29/2005 6:17 pm ET by Willie Martins
This was supposed to be sent to ALL, not one person. Sorry.If Grizzly is selling s%&t to the American people, what is Delta and all of the other companies who have their machines made in the same factories selling? The fit, finish and accuracy is based on what the company specifies that they want, but sometimes the materials are less than perfect. Doing nothing but gritching (OK if I use this, FG?) about a broken machine is useless since it accomplishes little more than venting one's spleen. For a cabinet shop to do nothing is even more baffling to me since they probably have someone working there who does all of the machine maintenance.
"I cut this piece four times and it's still too short."
Edited 7/31/2005 5:49 pm ET by highfigh
Would they have done anything different if the defective saw was a Unisaw or Powermatic that was shipped to them? I still see it primarily as their problem. The fact that they just let the saw sit there really adds no data whatsoever to what's needed to judge the manufacturer.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
All I can tell you is they had eight other saws, all Powermatic, that worked fine.
I have no idea what the outcome would have been of your hypothetical.
Stanford, I have read about half the posts regarding the quality of grizzly tablesaws. I have bought a total of seven G1023. The last one for myself when I retired,the other for shops I worked for.The first one was about 10 years ago for use on a large millwork job where a contractor saw was insufficent. We added a Vega fence on that saw since the grizzly fence at that time was only adequate at best. To make a long post short ,the saws are all in use today with no problems with the exception of a faulty switch on one saw that was replaced out of warranty.
I have used a number of cabinet saws, in my opinion the Powermatic is the class of the saws I have used in the 10"&12" 3hp range. After that the Grizzly,General and the older unisaws are in the same class, a very good to excellent class at that. I have used the Jet too, a fine cabinet saw that is rated 3 hp ,but does not seem to have the hp as the afoe mentioned saws. Not knocking Jet, has plenty of hp , but does bog down where the other saws did not even with the same blade.
I have never seen or used a Felder, the grizzly 5hp saw you say is junk,should have been sent back.I would not trash an entire company for a bad purchase that could have been rectified easily.If I had a piece of machinery that did not work as expected ,that tool would not be taking up shop space.
mike
Sanford
I currently work in a shop that has- guess what? A Felder, a Unisaw and a griz 1023!
Obviously the choice saw is the Felder, mainly used for sheet goods.
The second saw of choice is the Unisaw, handsdown, I see people wait long periods of time before they get on the griz.
I don't have any history on the griz saw, it's ok at best. I have a powermatic at home and like it more then the uni or griz.
The common denominator in this whole grizzly thing is that it does seem like a crap shot when ordering one. That's probably the main reason that I would be apprehensive about buying one. I don't like to have to wonder whether or not I'm going to get a "good one". I would guess that if I was to order 100 powermatics that one or more of them might have a problem. I would also lay money that if I was to order 100 griz 1023's that more of them would have to be sent back then the powermatics. That's what I see from friends and associates that decide to buy Grizzly tools.
We do have a griz planner and I think it does a decent job. Also a griz bandsaw, works fine but you need such an assortment of tools to change blades, don't know why they cant use the same allenwrench for all of it. Kinda aggravating.
I think that there are adequate tools manufactured by Grizzly but I just don't see them as consistent enough for me to take a chance on them.
Doug
Doug,
You wrote this:
"I think that there are adequate tools manufactured by Grizzly but I just don't see them as consistent enough for me to take a chance on them."Count me in on the downside of Grizzly's inconsistency.
I've had a 1023 for 15 years so I thought I would pitch in to this discussion.
The quality of the 1023 in my experience is "plenty sufficient" for my work. I agree with the previous poster who pointed out that a TS is a pretty simple machine, and you will be able to make good straight cuts with just about any table saw that is well tuned and sans critical defects.
If anyone is getting rough cuts on any table saw, I would not start by blaming the manufacturer. Any TS requires tuning; rough cutting is often due to poor machine set-up. It can also come from an arbor with excessive runout, but that should be caught when tuning the saw. I've replaced the arbor on my 1023, but did so because of the low quality cast pulley causing excessive vibration. I replaced it with a machined pulley from Grizzly and now the saw runs super smooth and quiet.
Regarding Grizzly's customer service, I have mixed results. I listened to too many CS people claim that nothing has changed on the 1023 since 1990 (when I got mine), and that they have all the parts one will ever need. Both claims turned out to be untrue; Grizzly finally admitted that they changed the pins used for locking the shafts (for blade height or tilt), and that they don't carry the "old" style pins anymore. They did offer to remill the new pins to the old shape, but I've been waiting (with my saw out of commission because I had to give them one of the "old" pins to copy) for too long for them to send me new pins. I'm not pleased with their service. When I buy an 8" jointer, I won't be buying Grizzly unless I've checked out 10 other brands and decide that Grizlly is the best bet. Since many of these machines are made in the same factories, it's unlikely Grizzly will get my service.
Still, NFW I would shell out 5x, even 3x as much as a 1023 costs for some other similar sized TS. Cutting wood isn't brain surgery, though sometimes it does pass a s finger surgery ;-)Recommending the use of "Hide Signatures" option under "My Preferences" since 2005
I currently work in a shop that has- guess what? A Felder, a Unisaw and a griz 1023!
A strange mix indeed.
The last tablesaw I worked with was a Felder K-700 S. Grizzly does not come close by any measure.
I wouldn't think so. How many Grizzly 1023's could you buy for the
cost of one Felder K-700 S? Eight? Nine?
--
Todd
The last tablesaw I worked with was a Felder K-700 S. Grizzly does not come close by any measure.
I wouldn't think so. How many Grizzly 1023's could you buy for the cost of one Felder K-700 S? Eight? Nine?
At least. What's your point? Felder is in business. Somebody is buying their equipment.
Folks, I have observed two instances when the word Frizzly has been used- I object to this , as it is my own word , used in one of my past posts.<J>
I have had reason to foam at the mouth over this tribe of machinery-can't be specific as it was some time ago and the memory tends to exclude unpleasant experiences.
I think that with a Brizzily one pays one's money and takes one's chances, if one does not have an extensive inspection and trial before handing over the money.
Edited 7/29/2005 5:41 am ET by Philip Marcou
Well said.
"Folks, I have observed two instances when the word Frizzly has been used- I object to this , as it is my own word , used in one of my past posts.<J>"
Sorry Mook, won't do that again, I thought it was Rhodesian English, which really has a nice accent. Guess I'll stick to my American English
Edited 7/29/2005 1:03 pm ET by Willie Martins
You know Grizzly is such a mixed bag.. but it gets down to one simple point, I don't care how reasonable the price is, a junk piece is a junk piece.. Anyone that has used a good solid tool like Powermatic, and then jumps over to use a Grizzly, will not be happy with a Grizzly product. I purchased several Grizzly pieces to start, and have sold them off one by one and replaced with 'quality' pieces.. Let's face it, Grizzly is a step above 'consumer grade', and a step below 'quality' .. For the avg guy cutting wood in his garage on the weekends, it is fine, for the guy that wants any accuracy in his work.. save your money..
~Rob
My sense is (I do not own any Grizzly stuff) that there is some variability in their product line. From reading many posts here and elsewhere, my synthesis is:
1. Some products like jointers seem to be better received than others like TS.
2. You cannot compare Grizzly with high end stuff, but it is reasonable in its price point market.
3. The market for WW tools is splintering: some manufacturers such as General seem to be maintaining their quality, others such as Delta are slipping, still others are in free fall. It could be that in 3 to 5 years the B&D consortium will be making cheap junk, and Grizzly may be better.
My own take on it is you need to take it on a case by case basis, and look at your budget. If I were in the market now, I would probably buy the General TS, but I might equally consider the Grizzly spiral cut jointer.
Glaucon
If you don't think too good, then don't think too much...
Edited 7/31/2005 12:03 am ET by GLAUCON
Philip,
You wrote this:
"I think that with a Brizzily one pays one's money and takes one's chances, if one does not have an extensive inspection and trial before handing over the money."Yes, this has been one of my points. Using my example, if I had bought my Grizzly drill press directly from their factory, I would have had much less of a problem. But because I bought it mail order, it increases the cost and frustration of a return.Mail order from a high-end machine seller is still risky. Mail order from a hit-or-miss seller like grizzly is playing roulette.Hey, I was in Vegas last week, and I did not bet a single cent. Why would I bet on my tools?
My point, sir, is to agree with you. There is a difference of nearly an order of magnitude in the cost of the two machines. If the Felder isn't vastly superior to the Grizzly (and Delta and Powermatic), then something is seriously amiss.--
Todd
That's great. In my first post in this thread I made the distinction between high-end machinery and hobbyist grade stuff. One simply gets what one pays for and there is a risk in buying mass produced Taiwanese woodworking equipment. There are reasons the stuff is sold as cheaply as it is even after taking into account wage and factory conditions where it's manufactured.
I would risk Grizzly only if I had a distribution center within reasonable driving distance. If it has to come in by common carrier then no way. Too much hassle if a return has to be made.
It's my opinion that the stuff has much potential to disappoint, especially if your frame of reference is older American made equipment or European tools. Obviously the Felder I mentioned is not a bona fide comparison.
I got my 1023S about 4 years ago and have used it all through the year. I live in Milwaukee and even in winter, I turn on my torpedo heater and wait till it's warm enough for me and get to work. I have made all kinds of things with it, cut everything up to 5" thick (in two passes) and after a couple of years, added the 7' rails and extension table with my router set into it. I haven't tweaked it since I installed the long rails and built my kitchen cabinets with it. If it constantly went out of adjustment, I would be seriously PO'd and wouldn't tolerate it for more than about a minute. Hasn't been a problem. I also have their old 12 1/2" planer(11 years), 6"x47" jointer(6 years) and last winter, I bought the G0555 bandsaw with riser block. I think the jointer had a scratch on it and when I called, they stepped up to take care of it. Whenever I had questions, they responded very quickly.
If you buy this saw and take a little time to set it up properly, I'm sure you will get a lot of use out of it before it needs any kind of repair. I'm thinking of replacing the HDPE faces on the fence, too. This material tends to "grow" when it gets really hot, which causes it to become longer between the screws and you get waviness. This is the only thing I have thought of replacing since I bought it.
I haven't read all the responses here, so apologies if I'm repeating someone, but you could be remembering one of my comments on the 1023 Grizzly series. I am not a fan of the Shop Fox fence that comes with the Z version and certainly wouldn't pay an extra $100 for it. The Shop Fox Classic, which comes on the "regular" 1023's is a Biesemeyer clone and would be my preference (1023S or 1023SL).
As far as comparisons price-wise with other cabinet saws, you get kinda close to something like a Unisaw if you do the following:
Someone who's building lots of cabinets or otherwise needing large capacity might get so close to the price of a Unisaw or Powermatic that they'd just as soon get one of those saws. Prices quoted above are regular, not their Summer Sale numbers.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Another proud member of the "I Rocked With ToolDoc Club" .... :>)
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