Glue failure or “Stain” is a sealer????
Daughter #4 and I have been making a headboard of her design: 3 inch wide maple frame around a background of baltic birch, with the field filled with various sized pieces of maple, cherry and walnut going from 1×8 to 3×3, to 4×8, etc with 1/4 inch even spacing between each piece.
I used Miniwax Ebony stain (although i now see the can says “penetrates, stains and seals” – which may be my problem) on the field. We champered the bottom edge of the pieces on the field and “stained” the baltic birch background ebony as we want each piece to appear to float. I used Titebond III and used a roller to put a thin coat of glue on each piece. We then put weights (boxes of books) on top while the glue dried. Everything was great for the past week . . . . . .
Today I flipped it over on my bench and started working on the leg supports. When I picked it up at the end of the day, one-half of the pieces stayed laying there on the bench. The back of each free piece has a roughish glue surface on it BUT when I felt the black baltic birch where the pieces had been, there was no evidence of glue residue – just a smooth surface. Some of the remaining pieces popped off with a little pressure and some were stuck well enough that they needed some persuasion . . . . but even after all were off, there was no glue residue on the baltic birch.
Looking at the Minwax can, I thought i got ebony stain, but it also says it “Penetrates, Stains and Seals” – – – so, whereto from here? Assuming that the seaIer prevented adhesion of the glue, I used 150 grit in the RO sander on the black baltic birch plywood, vacuumed and wiped the surface with naptha. Am i safe to re-glue?
The attached images show the general layout of the pieces when we were sizing them, a loose arrangement after i had put some finish on the face and sides of the field pieces, but not on the bottom glue surface, the flat black field and then the oops from the end of today.
Replies
probably OK...
Obviously the Minwax interfered with the glue as you said. Have you sanded enough off to do it again? Probably...
In any case, if it were me I'd glue the pieces with a construction adhesive that sticks everything yet never hardens completely.
coming unglued
How old is the glue you were using? Also, is there stain residue on the pieces that popped? If there was an excess of surface stain on the background panel, it's possible that the "thin coat" of glue wasn't able to penetrate enough to create a god bond. If the glue was old, that might have contributed to the disaster, as well.
David and Ralph, thank you.
The glue was purchased a few months ago; no production date but the label has a copyright of 2009 so it could not have been shelved for too long.
No stain residual on the bottom of the popped pieces, and no rough surface on the ply - just no penetration.
David, I will go to the big box to look, but the only construction adhesives i have seen are caulk like substances such as Liquid Nails,, which seem to be fairly thick . . . and i mean really thick. i am guessing there must be something thinner out there.
I have never used epoxy, but would this be something i should consider???
Again, thank you.
David.. the 2009 trademark may indicate the glue was made sometime in 2009 but.. just because you purchased it a few months ago does not mean it it relatively new on the shelf. Some stores will have dummies stocking that will mix newly opened cases with older stock and some stores just don't have high turn-over on particular items. Unless it was frozen I trust glue up to one year. And when you deal with any Titebond from original to III... they all have a code on the bottle and here's how you read it to know for sure just how old the glue is....
There will be some small print usually on the upper portion of the bottle. It will read something like this which came off a bottle in my shop... A002030030..... Forget all the numbers after the first Letter and first number as they are irrelevant. I have A 0 which tells me the glue was made in January of 2010.. The Letter signifies the month.. A=Jan .... B=Feb.. etc.. Titebond does not use the letter i (I) as it looks too much like one and they skip it. Normally Sept. would be I or i but it is J and so on down the alphabet through the months.
The second character in the A 0 is the year. O is 2010,, 9 would be 2009.. etc...
LIfe is simple purchasing glue if you know how to decode the manufacturer date.
Good luck on the re-glue.
2010 date for glue?
Sarge, the paper label code says A001140051 . . . . . . . so, Jan 2010?
Thank you, Patrick
That's affirmative Patrick! The A O is the only thing relevant as the remaining numbers are Titebond internal bacth #'s...etc. BTW.. I finish before I assemble by taping off tenons.. mortices.. dadoes.. etc. The blue tape will prevent the stain and finish from getting on glue surfaces to prevent what you had happen. Guess how I know? haha.. Years ago... but it's a live and learn situation which you won't repeat after you correct this one.
Regards...
alternative adhesives
Yes, the construction adhesives, like Liquid Nails, are thick, and intentionally so. But, it will squoosh fairly thin with pressure. Just don't apply it near the edge.
This also might be an application for cyanoacrylate glue.
Glue Failure
It's probably a glue failure because of the sealed surface. There was a FWW article a while back about how PVA glues work. Essentially, the substrate has to be wettable for the PVA glue to permeate and form the bond. A test for this is to place a drop of water on the surface. If the drop remains beaded and doesn't soak in, the PVA glue will not bond.
There is a "melamine glue" from Titebond that may work in this application. I have no experience with this glue.
Good luck and let us know of the outcome.
Minwax Wood Finish (oil based pigment stain) contains a small amount of resin or varnish. The resin is necessary to hold the pigment coloring onto the wood surface. It's a sort of glue. Because of the varnish it seals the surface of the wood and normal woodworking adhesives will not work. Woodworking adhesives must be used on virgin wood. Dye stains will still allow wordworking adhesives to work.
It is unlikely that sanding will remove all the resin from the pores of the wood. The residual finish will interfer with the proper adhesion of most woodworking adhesives. To completely remove all the resin a chemical paint remover containing methylene chloride is best.
. . . learning curve steepens
Howie, Ralph and gents,
Thanks to all. The water beaded up, even after sanding with 80 grit. Lacquer thinner didn't dent it. So, off to find the stripper, although at this point i am regretting that i glued the backboard to the frame, because otherwise I could start with a fresh piece of baltic birch . . . . . . . next time i will plan ahead for taking apart due to "design alterations" . . .
stripper?
I'm curious why your're going the stripper route instead of simply using a different adhesive.
"Construction Adhesive" is an
"Construction Adhesive" is an American term. Can't you pretend to be English for half-an-hour while you apply Liquid Nails? :-)
Seriously, you may risk damaging the plywood using Paint Stripper:
1. The solvent will penetrate the veneer and attack the glue layer beneath.
2. If the veneer is thin you may scrape it off while scraping the stain.
I have heard stories of people ruining sailing dinghies using paint stripper on the marine ply. To be fair I have not actually seen any myself. However the builder who built my dinghy used to specifically warn his customers not to ever use paint stripper.
David, if I were to pretend my people came from the other side of the channel, I would have to wear the dreaded orange on me birthday . . . . .
Interesting point on the delamination issue but I don't see any indication of it yet.
I tend to be leary as davcefia on using strong stripper on very thin layered baltic veneer on ply. Maybe I have missed something here but in lieu of stripping the existing ply.. why don't you get a fresh piece of baltic and chalk up the failure as learning? Not that much expense involved but again... I may have missed something reading the thread.
Good luck...
Sarge, thus my lament above.
If you look at the 4th picture above, my earlier comment about next time planning to disassemble might make more sense. Before the baltic plywood was stained (yeah, i know, sealed), I glued 3/8 inch strips approx one inch wide around the perimeter to act as spacers so as to have the frame (lower inner edge champered) "float" or give some appearance of depth. I then used biscuits in the corner miters and glued the inside of the frame to the top of the 3/8x1 inch spacer strip . . . . . . . in the photo you can see the frame pieces rolled over onto their sides . . . . thus everything you see in the 4th picture is now one solid (heavy, too) piece.
Having read this far, I would be curious to know what any of you would recommend for the assembly process next time I attempt this . . . . . . My frame is 3/4 thick so i could try screwing into the back of it, maybe one-half inch purchase??? I have also toyed with the idea of using table top attachments that screw into the baltic and require a slot in the side piece. Please do not suggest IKEA :)
Guys, thanks again for the help. Patrick
I lieu of all the stripping, etc. I would go with the screws from the back on this one. That seems to me to be the most logical approach at this point.
Good luck...
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