I’m so glad Fine Woodworking weighed in and settled the argument, once and for all.
In the last issue, we have a definitive conclusion: round benchdogs are more versatile than square ones!
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Yeeeesss . . . maybe. . . ( maybe not ). . .but . . . traditional Klausz style rectangular dogs are better for traditional hand tool cabinet making. Round dogs are not as good for this.
Hand tool cabinet making is what I care about and do so for ME round dogs are just plane wrong.
As I have said many times here. More than one bench. Better than variable height have benches set up for the style of work to be done. Round dogs; taller bench; power tools.
Hand planing; lower bench and rectangular dogs.
There is no do everything bench. Or dog.
roc
Give me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Edited 4/20/2009 11:14 pm by roc
Roc,
Well.....my round dogs have 1.5" of flat face on their top (sticky-out) sections. So doesn't this mean they act just like square dogs when necessary?
Or is there something about the prevention of rotation of a sqaure dawg in it's hole that offers an advantage? Mind, my round ones never rotate once set, even when holding a square thang with their flat faces.
One suspects that square dogs are traditional and kept solely for that reason, with various rationalisations-after-the-fact invented to justify the tradition - unless you know different. :-)
Lataxe, who likes the ease of putting a new round dawg-hole in his bench when some workpiece demands one.
Rectangular allows wood dawgs. Advantage doesn't mark the work as much don't have to fittle with little wood block as a protective pad.Can extend inches up into a furniture repair to pull joint apartRectangular dogs angle toward the work. Advantage: tends to pull the work down onto the bench so it stays flat for handplaning. I am not convinced vertically drilled holes can do this even though the face of round dogs angle.Steel rectangular dogs are much stronger than the smaller brass round shape for resisting force in line with the bench screw/vise.With tongue firmly planted in cheek I will venture to say:I am sure if Latax ever spent much time scrub plain'in , and if he were to apply his full force he would snap those puny little brass sticks right off. Fortunately he doesn't need to unleash his awesome and terrible power (awe it is a fearful thing to behold ) Latax has a gentlemanly power jointer and surface plainer.Not that I am in any danger of snapping any dogs. I must admit to being pathetically under powered and lacking in ballast.I just like to argue.
rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
"Rectangular allows wood dawgs." -> So does round.
"Can extend inches up into a furniture repair to pull joint apart"-> So can round. Actually, this is more a function of top thickness than dog shape.
"Rectangular dogs angle toward the work. Advantage: tends to pull the work down onto the bench so it stays flat for handplaning. I am not convinced vertically drilled holes can do this even though the face of round dogs angle."-> Ever tried it? It works fine. And my planes will so attest, down to the last one.
"Steel rectangular dogs are much stronger than the smaller brass round shape for resisting force in line with the bench screw/vise."-> Either the vise or the bench or, more likely, the workpiece would give way before 3/4" round brass (or steel, for that matter) dogs would. As the CarTalk guys say, "Bo-o-o-o-gus!"
"I am sure if Latax ever spent much time scrub plain'in , and if he were to apply his full force he would snap those puny little brass sticks right off."-> Maybe Latax is more manly than I, but I've been scrub planin' with my round dogs for more years than I care to admit. Haven't even bent or dented one, let alone busted one off. I have nicked one or two with a plane tho' -- that's when I was particularly happy they weren't steel.
I've used both square (early in my WW-ing "career") and round (later and currently). No appreciable difference between the two other than it's easier to make round holes than square (especially if you want to add a hole or two after the bench is already made - which I've done a few times), it's easier to angle the face of round dogs, and Lee Valley makes some nice accessories for the round ones. Other than that, whatever suits the user!
"I just like to argue."Hey, not only do I like to argue, I do it for a living! ;-)
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Mike,I take it that discussing equilateral triangle shaped dogs is completely off the bench? For those that have everything?
Maybe just two?
You know, when you just have to have stops when planning into a 90 miter :)Boiler
"equilateral triangle shaped dogs "
Well, if you'll loan me your triangle drill, I'll give 'em a try! ;-)
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
I'll see if I can find it. I had it in one of those tetrahedron shaped case under sumpin or t'other.
"I just like to argue."Hey, not only do I like to argue, I do it for a living! ;-)
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Lawyer?
LataxeI likes mine oval. :) Tom"Notice that at no time do my fingers leave my hand"
Tom,
Perhaps we have a marketing scam (I mean opportunity) with oval dawgs?
First: we make the oval a distinct one with a subtle variation to the normal ovoid shape for which only we have the formula. When a customer buys our dawgs or the thang with the dawg holes in it, they are locked into our ovoidiverse.
Second; we sell ovoid hole making implements (router-based) of a complex and expensive nature. Locked-in customers will have to have one (two if we make two sizes of ovoid thangs). Gizmo-addicts will also get them and thus become locked-in to our ovoid dawgs and such.
We will need to invent a large number of spurious "arguments" that demonstrate how the ovoids are essential in achieving certain types of grip; and how only our ovoids can cope with certain workpiece shapes or operations upon them with the tools.
All this can be patented. When FWW publishes an article or tip about making a home-made ovoid constuctor, we can have sulks, threaten to sue and withdraw our ovoid-advertising, using very huffy and semi-pompous tones. The whole experience will be a great adventure and we may possibly end up with enough profit to buy all the tool types that even Samson has! Huzzah!!
Lataxe, pretending to be a capitalist.
I have no Marcou's . . . sniffle.
I have no WoodRat ... thank god.
You?
I'm in! We'll call the router thingy the dominoval. Tom"Notice that at no time do my fingers leave my hand"
Here's a little poster I whipped up of a fan toasting one of your oval dogs with a pint o' what looks to be bitter or maybe Guinness?
View Image
Edited 4/21/2009 3:34 pm ET by Samson
Ok, that's funny! Tom"Notice that at no time do my fingers leave my hand"
Samson,
Notice that small homunculus clutched by the bamboozled one. That is one of my forebears, who made his living by controlling folk from an early age, to make them buy his needful thangs. See how that victim grimaces fondly at the cereal-waste-product-grog (I mean health-giving drench).
You cannot see the tendrils he has inserted into his victim's brain but they are there, snaking through the metasphere!
Lataxe, who is about to start the "buy Sean a woodrat" appeal, as he has been touched by your lack of such a fine woodworking instrument.
You are all wrong, Wrong, WRONG!
Rectangular dogs are the best. Why?
That's what I have in my bench, that's why.
But I admit that the oval dogs are intriguing, if only for their exclusivity and capitalist appeal . Must make them of googaboola and brass, with titanium-alloy- no, wait, Reardon metal- springs.
Ray
Ray,
I have made some Reardon-metal prototypes of the ovoidal dawgs. Naturally they are Right First Time, as I adopted the proper Roarkian attitude whilst making them - "I am the only real and worthy person in the universe so all I do is Correcto-bestellence".
You will want to trade for them so send 189 solid gold dollars and a packet of The Best Fags Ever Made and I will return to you a set of ovidodogs that will transform your woodworking experience from "mundane chopping" to "ecstatic-creative" mode. This may all be in your mind (shaped by ideologitendrils of Aynism, already grown like a mycelium in your wetware) but it's the user-experience that counts, even if it may be somewhat subjective. (We are all solipsists in the Roarkian universe, which is contained entirely in our own wee heed).
Note that anyone trying to copy the ovoidos and compromising their Excellence by changing anything at all about them will result in a visit from Their Owner bearing an Uncompromising & Po-faced Intent and clutching a means to destroy them, even if they are proving useful and somewhat cheaper to make. We cannot have the hoi-polloi using my Fruits of Genius as I require many more solid gold dollars and Best Ever Fags, for reasons I forget just now.
Howard Lataxe
Lataxe,ovoidiverse, seeing wee small folk, imagining tendrils snaking and human brains.You know the witch trials in the USA were traced back to people poisoned by hallucination producing mold in the flour.Have you been making home made bread again ?rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Roc,
What is wrong with dancing the St Vitus? It's easier than waltzing correctly!
Now, them meta-tendrils that get into the hooman brane are not my hallucinatory entertainments but Very Real. Lads who read newspapers and watch the idiot-box become well-infected, as anyone can see who listens to the inane sputtering they issue when in their cups, which sputterings are like a cracked 78rpm record-version of the memes imposed on them by Mr Media Bigwig and his cabal. "Down with ferners". "Dark Monsters are coming" etc..
I recommend a few mouthfuls of the home-made bread inclusive of just a touch of that ergot you mention. Somehow it jerks reality back into focus and one suddenly becomes aware of a dull background rasping from the media demon as he saws out your soul.
Lataxe, off for a spring bikeride doon the blossomy lanes of the Bowland fells.
Hail Albert Hofmann. May he long be remembered.
Turn on, tune in, and drop out. Still good advice.
Stale ergot bread eh? May I have another slice?
................................................
Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.~ Denis Diderot
Lataxe,
" that ergot you mention. Somehow it jerks reality back into focus ..."
A case of "cogito, ergot sum"? Or in this case, cogito sum, ergot.
Hee hee,
Ray, enjoying ergot argot
Ray,
My days as an ergotnaut are long over although the adventures do recur from time to time during the afternoon nap. Perhaps there is something lodged in the ladywife's breadmaking machine and I should avoid too many trout sandwiches?
Now, when I were a lad I never dropped out, as no bugger would provide the necessary pocketmoney so I had to go and work as a slave for various money-grubbing capitalist men. Still, I did have long hair, loons and a bad attitude. Eventually I wangled my way into a bureaucracy, where one could indeed drop out (I was already tuned in, courtesy of me mammy and her anti-authoritarianism).
But you wouldn't have approved as I spent a lot of time giving the Queeny's money away to pensioners made decrepid by working in the mills of Mr Capitalist for 2 shillings and sixpence a week. Or to single mothers of both the feckless and the exploited kind. Or to work-shy ne'er-do-wells. This is what comes of considering alternative realities, including those in which the Protestant work ethic never arose.
Anyroadup, here I am properly dropped out now - a wee pension to keep the wolf from the door, no need to slave at some desk doing foolishness and time to do what I want. I tune in to Radio Three in the shed, where strange but enlightening sounds issue from musical folk. Soon I am reliving certain youthful experiences (but only in the mind's eye).
It's like being 15 again but with loads of pocketmoney, no carping parent or schoolmaster and lots of long-considered ideas about what adventures to have. Just this very afternoon I rode the fecund lanes on the bicycle, chatted to an old farmer concerning nonsense and teased a postman.
Yippeeeee! (as they say in them old Westerns o' yourn).
Lataxe, whose mind is still expanding (soon it will go "pop! along with the over-taxed body").
Lataxe oldchum,
Riding a bicycle again, just as you used to do at 15. Sounds loverly. I envy you a bit, I do indeed, as you gad about the Lancashire dales and byways. Bucolic, I calls it.
Ray
>sputtering issued by Mr Media Bigwig and his cabalAh ! Right as usual. Right as usual. Happy cycling !rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Lataxe,My apologies for not responding sooner to your ovoid dawg proposal, but I have only just come upon it. My dear chap, while your capitalist stance is, as far as it goes, convincing enough, you have not seized on the full potential of ovoid dawgs.Ovoid dawgs must be made of special plastic with inbuilt nano technological properties, to wit: the ability to change colour (say from their original green to red) if the hole into which they are inserted is out of ovidness by ####predetermined amount, and to similarly discolour (say from original green to violet) if they themselves stray from ovoidality.Moreover, the said dawgs can be marketed in three (or more) varieties of sensitivity to their own and surrounding ovoidity - the most sensitive being the most expensive by an order of some magnitude.May I suggest that we approach LIe-Nielson and Lee Valley to sound out the possibility of forming a joint consortium to research and develop the potential of the significant breakthrough in dawg technology.Cum grano salis.Burr
Burr,
Your suggestions have merit. But, alas; I have discovered that the American and Canadian capitalists you mention have stolen my suggestion before I could get down to the patent office. They have now patented the ovoidal technology themselves, so there will be a Great Outcry should there be even a suggestion of ovoidal-dawg in FWW Methods of Work column, let alone an entepreneurial attempt by thee or me.
Shoud we outsource the manufacture of our own ovoidals to the Far East, The Outcry will increase by 27 decibels and a gunboat might be send here to Galgate, bearing many large flags and a bloke with an uncanny resemblance to John Wayne, carrying an enormous sixshooter and expressing an uncompromsing attitude to "darn ferners".
Lataxe, a darn ferner.
Lataxe,Looks like we'll have to go off both our shores and set up in China where John Wayne like characters get zapped by the PLA. Also a darn ferner (from Down Under).Cheers - Burr
Tom,
I am thinking of making my dogs pentagonal. The five sided approach insures that the dogs go in the same way each time.Of course, I am thinking of an alternative approach as well. The dogs are round on one side and square on the other side, sort of like an old time streetcorner mailbox. That allows you to use either the round or square side. However since I want the flexibility to have the round side facing in any direction (North, South, East or West) I plan to use inserts which can be switched. I believe the additional work involved in having my wife make these will be worth the efforts. MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I would avoid five sides.Pentagons attract terrorists.
Really poor taste.
Sean,
I saw this articlehttp://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/FWNPDF/011139098.pdfa while back, which features a workbench which has about six pipe clamps embedded in it. VERY CREATIVE. It puts a different light on dogs. I also liked Roc's comments on Japanese techniques. MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Note, however, the complete lack of either pentagons, round benchdogs OR square benchdogs.
>workbench which has about six pipe clamps embedded in it. Is this the New-Fangled Workbench ?I like John White and respect his experience, articles and work.I do not understand the attraction of his work bench. When I first heard about it I special ordered the back issue of FWW so I could read the article.Coming from a hand plane back ground and believing the bench top should be stable and flat to do decent work I just could not get my mind around this tedious, unflat, endless fiddling with putting in and taking out teatery pieces of bench top. What if the work is too narrow to span the two pipe clamps ? It seems it would just flex side to side or pivot in the horribly un flat jaws of the cheep pipe clamps and fall through the "table".Those pipes are not straight. How could they ever support the chunks of "wood" to make up a semi flat bench ? And the old style Jorgensen clamp jaws are sticking up at a fixed hight so we are putting in plywood spacers to raise the work so hand planes or even power router bases don't run in to them? ? ?Maybe I have had too much coffee again but it makes me want to go out and run around the block before I strangle some one. It just is TOO MUCH FIDDLING !Am I missing something here ?>Work MateI have two matching ones. They are handy for portability to work with maybe 2x4s or really rough work. The top is hopeless for fine cabinet making. Not flat, again the dogs can't be lowered bellow thinner work to plane past them etc. I really did try to make them work for FWW. Even cutting dovetails they mark the work because of thin "jaws", the work flaps back and forth because it pivots at the thin jaws while cutting dovetails etc.Can't really chisel out the waste or mortise on a workmate unless you get right over a support ( the particle board or plywood top just goes up and down like a trampoline instead of back up the force of the hammer blows.once again I say am I missing something here ?I cannot imagine wanting it on top of my fine cabinet makers bench except to hold a piece of plumbing pipe to saw it off ( wouldn't want the metal filings on my bench so in reality not even then )rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )Edited 4/26/2009 1:00 am by roc
Edited 4/26/2009 1:06 am by roc
Roc,
I suspect the JW pipeclamp workbench is a result of jig-itus, where clever "solutions" create mounds of bits and connections that take longer to make/assemble than the furnture. But I yam an ole skeptical and there are no doubt any numbr of happy users of the invention.
It cannae be denied that immovable, flat solidity is the greatest attribute of any bench on which handtooling operations are to be done. A workmate (or two) with a 1/4 sheet of ply clamped in it via an under-batten makes a handy workbench - but not if you want to apply forceful thrusts to a tool and thence to the workpiece, as the whole caboodle moves back and forth because of workmate frame-slop and also the lack of weight in the whole kontrapshun.
Still, a workmate with a plywood top is very good for machine processing. I used one for years as my outdoor routing, circ-sawing, eletrik-planing and sanding platform. Slop in the frame is no issue with such operations as the forces that come from the machines tend to be mostly rotary so don't cause excessive bench-waggle, as the linear forces of handplaning and chiselling do.
The ply top can have QR clamps and round dawg holes made in it. Mine also had the holes for strapping down T-bar cramps, before I learnt the joys of a Plano press for gluing lots of big planks together. Damage from the various operations doesn't bother the pywood so much, which can be cheaply replaced if it gets too dinged up or sawn through.
I still use that workmate and it's ply top for sanding; and, at it's lower height, for assembly/finishing. Also the Veritas router table/box sits on the low-height of a bare and closed-up workmate top, held on by three QR clamps; and this works very well. But 90% of my woodworking now takes place on the very rigid and heavy traditional workbench I made, complete with (naturally) round dawg holes and two Veritas twin screws. As a result, every DT, motise hole and smoothed panel is perfek. (If only - the user still needs to become as functionally-capable as his workbench).
Lataxe
Roc,
You have to stop being so subtle! Actually not. I enjoy and profit from reading your posts because you are so passionate and so particular. Those are good things.I was not recommending John White's newfangled workbench. I was merely commenting that it is a very creative approach to the issue of holding work on the bench ( the issue that dogs us all). I am a big fan of creativity, and of trying different things to see if they work for me. You seem to be of the same mind. I love the fact that you use Japanese techniques when you find them appropriate, and that you have skills in that area. I am jealous. I sure would like some lessons from you on Japanese techniques. With a closed mind, one cannot advance. With a creative mind, one comes up with a lot of ideas, many of which will not stick around long. THINKING IS GOOD, even if it doesn't always give us the perfect answer (actually there is no such thing as the perfect answer_. I admire John for his creativity in using clamps. Unfortunately I do not have a good workbench yet, so I make do. I am creative in the use of clamps. I use a Workmate, and I use it for serious woodworking. I believe your definition of fine woodworking is very flat and planed. Mine is far wider. Besides flat things, I make bowls from green wood, using an angle grinder and various other things that most fine woodworkers do not use. I consider bowl carving to be far more difficult than "flat woodworking". Doing curved woodworking is giving me an appreciation for modern woodwork, which I used to downplay. Maybe Maloof was not such a bad designer. :-)I do not try to tell others to use my approaches to woodwork, or to use my values. I am certainly nonstandard, though I seek to become proficient in the standard methods. I just don't like to be handcuffed by them.If you and I get together someday, I'll trade you a lesson on bowl carving for a lesson on Japanese techniques. And we will both be the better for it.Keep on punchin', my friend. Your passion for excellence is a lesson for us all. Enjoy,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I hear you, roc. I think it's a case of different strokes....My current bench is pretty simple and my next bench will be too. Cast iron front vise, planing stop on the left edge, 2 3/4" holes for holdfasts, 6'x30" currently. The new bench top will be 8' x 28". No trays, no tail vise, no round, square, oval or octagonal dog holes. That's all I need. Tom"Notice that at no time do my fingers leave my hand"
>holes for holdfasts, 6'x30" currently. The new bench top will be 8' x 28". No trays, no tail vise, no round, square, oval or octagonal dog holes. That's all I need. Tom,Simpler is better. A couple of questions if I may:• What hold fasts do you like ?• What set up do you like to hold drawers for planing the dovetail pins flush to the sides ( or sides flush to the pins ) ?rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
RocI LOVE the Grammercy tools forged holdfasts from Tools for Working Wood. They're inexpensive, indestructible and they work great. http://www.toolsforworkingwood.com/Merchant/merchant.mvc?Screen=PROD&Store_Code=toolshop&Product_Code=MS-HOLDFAST.XX&Category_Code=TLTo plane drawer sides, I like to clamp down a piece of 3/4" plywood to the bench that over-hangs and is nearly as wide as the drawer and put the drawer over the plywood and plane away. Works great. Tom"Notice that at no time do my fingers leave my hand"
pentagonal. The five sided approach insures that the dogs go in the same way each time. LOL!
Ok, may work until there is a problem with some stick.. How long do meetings last at the Pentagon that decide what to do next?
"How long do meetings last at the Pentagon that decide what to do next?"They last until the first plane hits, then they take a break.
Plonk
What Lataxe said. Never had any complaint with round dogs for any hand tool work -- they do have a square face after all. As a bonus, the Lee Valley Bench Dogs, Wonder Dog and hold-down -- all nice, but especially the hold-down -- work in 'em. Another added feature is that the dogs in a round hole can be angled for odd-shaped work.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
Mike (or anyone else reading this), I have a question.
The brace and bit is hardly a new invention. Shaping dowels is not new either, and round hold fasts are likely as old as smithing. So ...
Why did the woodworkers of the 17th, 18th, and 19th centuries* go to the trouble of making and using square dogs?
* (only mentioning these guys outl oud because emulating their work is so popular; not suggesting others have not used square dogs through the ages)
As a user of square dogs for most tasks (I have some round holes in my bench too for holdfasts) I have a good sense of their quality and abilities, but I have never used a bench with only round holes, so I won't say that round are not equal. Anyway, why do you think the forebears bothered instead of just drilling a few holes?
>why do you think the forebears bothered instead of just drilling a few holes?Ooooh yah . . . there is a pretty question. Isn't like they had all the time in the world to futs around with makin' their bench. Un like me they had to get on with it so they could get back to making a living from wood working.rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Historically, square dog holes were invariably associated with a tail vise. Thus, the answer to your question must be connected to that usage. My hypothesis is that when you're only using two dogs, square dogs have an advantage if either end of your workpiece isn't square, since they will cut into the workpiece rather than rotate the way a round dog would, which could send the stock flying.
-Steve
I think they may have an advantage even if both ends are square with their 2 -3 degree tilts. LV may have overcome this for thinnish stock with their angled face:
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=31127&cat=1,41637
but if you need to hold some 12/4 or even 8/4, the square dog's projecting face makes it superior as it can rise to the occassion.
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=2&p=31131&cat=1,41637
If you do a lot of handwork, especially where you are working edges agressively - think panel raiser or large molding profile, the square dogs help even large panels resist rotation/
Why were square dogs popular in earlier centuries?
Dunno, but here's a guess. Square dogs are easier to make with hand tools or early metal-working methods. You can whip up a square dog, including the holding spring, entirely out of wood with only a handsaw in about 5 minutes. Tougher with round holes, since the spring becomes problematic without modern mfgring methods and you'd need a lathe. Same with steel -- early methods favored square shapes since they could be beat out easily on an anvil.
These days, a machine can spit out any shape you want with equal ease, so the case for square dogs isn't influenced by ease of manufacture.
Now, if you wuz to tell me you wanted to make all your own dogs from scratch, I'd say go with square every time.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
I don't need a lathe to make a dowel. Spokeshaves, rasps, dowel plates, draw knives etc. can all make suitable dowels. Or rounding plane:
View Image
Indeed, I think most post and beam constrution (i.e., barns) were pegged with dowels, right? I don't think a spring would be hard to come up with either.
As far as the smithing, I'm no expert, but are you contending that holdfasts were square in cross section in the old days? I'm pretty sure smiths could get bars or rods or sheets as they needed.
Edited 4/21/2009 2:34 pm ET by Samson
Well, not impossible to do without a lathe, but all I'm saying is that it's way harder to make a 3/4" round dowel with a spring than it is a square one. Heck, you pretty much have to make the 3/4" square just to start making the dowel, so you may as well just stop there and use it square! ;-)
As for the steel, I used to work in the woodshop of a museum -- kinda like Williamsburg on a really tight budget. LOL! They taught that steel was pretty scarce pre-Bessemer, and was made only in small batches by a process called "puddling". Basically they made iron ingots that it was up to the smith to shape. Much of the stuff in the shop bore telltale signs of somebody being very judicious with how metal was used, and had that wrought-iron look. But I think you're right about a smith's ability to get at least some shapes. I think I recall the Williamsburg smith saying they imported flat blanks that they cut into nails.
I have no idea if those early cabinetmakers used wooden or metal dogs, tho'. Although there were some old ones in the shop, I don't recall if they were original. If the original ones were wooden, they probably wouldn't have survived to present day.
The vices all had wooden screws tho', so I'd be mildly surprised if the stops were originally iron -- seems like it would be overkill with wooden vice screws, given the high price and scarcity of iron. There was one old iron holdfast, tho' I don't recall if it was round or square. I do know that the improved type with the screw clamp head works WAY better than a pound-in one.
Like I said -- just a guess. And if I had to make 'em by hand, I'd pick square since you only make the holes once, and you may be making dogs over and over (especially if they were wooden) with use.
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
I won't argue about which is easier to make in the long run, since I don't think that was the determinitive factor. I think the reasons the old times used square was:
- the 2-3 degree tilt that comes into play at any height
- the protruding faces of the square dogs mean that they will not be pushed down through the bench
- The square dogs are self aligning as far as their faces always pointing right at the edge of the square stock [by the way, while round dog proponents mention the ability of round to conform to irregular shapes, I'd mention that it's no big deal to use an offcut or something to place between a square dog and some irregularly shapped stock to achieve the same end]
I don't need a lathe to make a dowel. Spokeshaves, rasps, dowel plates, draw knives etc. can all make suitable dowels.
It seems to me that its easier, and takes less time to make a consistent square than it is a dowel.
Buster, have you ever used a dowel plate or a rounder plane like the one I showed (courtesy of TFWW!) ?? With those tools, it takes very little time to make a very consistent dowel.
Buster, have you ever used a dowel plate or a rounder plane like the one I showed (courtesy of TFWW!) ?? With those tools, it takes very little time to make a very consistent dowel.
Not in along time (Dowel Plate). Last time I needed dowels, I figured it was easier to just buy them... It seems to me that I had to get the wood down to an approximate size before I used the dowel plate, essentially I'd have to make a rough dog anyway then break it down to dowel.
Anyway it's just a theory as to why round dogs may not have been used.
As I said to Mike, I don't really dispute that square dogs are relatively easy to make. And round wood dogs are just a hypothetical, as I've never seen one like we're talking about (with a spring). I only mentione dthe dowel plate and rounding planes in case you weren't aware. They work very well. Both allow you to use riven wood and thereby yield dowels with very little run out (i.e., stronger). They also allow you to use ANY species you like.
Samson and othersI am in joying the pics thanks.I was surprised to see how sloppy the fit of the Veritas rectangular dog is in the bench in the catalog pic. Cross planing it would tilt or move around I would think.To ALLThe slip on plastic pads are a nice recent addition to the round dawgs. They begin to win me over there.A totally off the subject but on the topic observation . . .Recently I was going at it with the scrub plane cross grain using one dog on each end of a 8/4 by table length plank. No problem. Then I put in another which did not have the ends cross cut square to an edge. The angle direction was against me and as I planed across the plank it popped out of the grip of the dawgs and slid across the bench and knocked a valuable plane off the bench and onto the floor. First time I ever "dropped" a plane. I was less than impressed with myself.Maybe if I had been using Chris Schwarz bench with clamped on battens rather than dogs of any type this would not have occurred. Just another thing to consider. Who knows if I had been using round dogs they might have rotated and dug into the plank and prevented the problem as well.rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
If the angles were against you, I'm guessing the round dogs wouldn't have saved you. Dawgs are not good for aggressive cross-grain planing as the force is perpendicular to their holding power. Duh, right? I agree that clamping a thinner board to the other side of your bench as a "planing stop" is a much better method.
>thinner board to the other side of your bench as a "planing stop" is a much better method.Well there is a trade off; dinking around with clamps or hold fasts and battens and finding a place to clamp takes a lot of extra time etc.In years of using this bench planing very aggressively there has been only the one instance. I tend to under tighten rather than crank on the end vise. It probably would have still held if I went after it on the vise handle.I like the quick set up of just dogs and will, in the future, merely not place a plane in harms way while roughing.rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Edited 4/21/2009 5:19 pm by roc
My bench is out in the middle of my shop, so I have access to all sides. That makes clamping on a stop a very quick operation. I can imagine that if my bench were against a wall, I'd feel differently.
And certainly the easy answer is: move the plane!
The old post and beam barns were not pegged with "dowels", but rather with tree-nails (pronounced "trunn'ls). These were riven from a short straight-grained log, and were not generally rounded, but left as octagons. They took some hard driving, but held well. The same trunn'ls were used on the old time wooden sailing ships.
Tom
Cool to know. Thanks.
Serious question. No wrong response.
I red or is that read? That they were Made from Tree Roots? Tree Roots are VERY STRONG! I have 'tried' to chop out more than a few in my lifetime!
Samson,
I'd bet there were any number of reasons why they used square vs round:
Easier to make the mortises when they were building their benches.
Square dogs were easier to make than round dogs.
If a square hole got enlarged through work, one could just make a bigger dog.
Hey it wouldn't surprise me if some used railroad spikes for dogs. They usually do have a lip on their tips. Whew, I was really worried 'bout saying that wrong. :-)
I'm sure there are other reasons too.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
>lip on their tips. Whew, I was really worried 'bout saying that wrong. :-)Well you made Queenmasteroftheuniverse laugh with that one. And me to.rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
I'm fairly new to the hobby, messed around with woodworking from childhood but didn't have a real shop with actual tools until lately. My first serious project was building a workbench. It uses round bench dogs, primarily due to the plans that were used to build it.
I recall reading articles that talk about round vs square (or rectangle) bench dogs but nothing seems to stick in my memory about the advantages of one vs the other. I just went through the archives here looking for information regarding the subject but didn't come across any that talk specifically about why square ones are used on some and round ones on others. Some just state that square is better but don't say why. The subject article only states that round ones are more versatile than square ones but doesn't cover the specific uses for square ones.
Can someone point me toward a good source that explains why square ones are used in certain benches?
Thanks,
Al Benton
Chose either round or square... make it work. ha.. ha...
Sarge..
"Can someone point me toward a good source that explains why square ones are used in certain benches?"
Sure -- 'cause certain benches have square holes! ;-)
Mike HennessyPittsburgh, PA
>the archives here<We hashed it out pretty good here:http://forums.taunton.com/fw-knots/messages?msg=43719.1I won the argument as I recall. Or maybe not. Memory isn't as good as it once was. No, no, I think I won : )rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Thanks, ROC.
I have a much better understanding of the square bench dog and its advantages after reviewing that archived thread, especially after viewing the linked sites that you provided. Very enjoyable reading. Much thanks.
I'm an "in the rough" craftsman who depends on the power tools mostly. I'm not at all good with hand tools, never learned to use them correctly (or otherwise). I can see that having a well designed cabinetmakers workbench would make things much easier to learn on.
MikeHennessy, aaaaa..... Thanks
Al Benton
tis a wonder why Frank Klausz didn't include round in his "New" version of his old bench. Made some forty years later. I don't get around much so have never been to a show to ask him.I would recommend walking up to him and asking him "why no round dogs ?" You will probably get more than you bargained for.Or do the same with his main student Andy Rae. I seem to remember seeing a round hole or two in his Klausz bench. Still has lots of rectangular from the start. Ask Mr Rae.If you get the opportunity to talk to these guys report back with what they said.signed
The hermit in WildWildWest USArocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Holy Cow, ROC, I was away reading your suggested material for a couple of hours, trying to get a handle on the subject. I'm still walking the fence and don't have a strong opinion either way yet. Heck, I may be on your side before the dust settles, can't really say yet.
After reviewing the last 12-15 posts (while I was gone) my initial obsurvation is this;
Folks that start with round holes tend to defend them, folks that start with square ones tend to defend them, period. So what's best???? Ask Frank, ask Mike, ask whomever. Nine out of ten answers is going to be based on what they started out using.
Al
So as you read this thread, you can find no statements of objective fact regarding meaningful benefits and drawbacks of round versus square dogs in various applications or owing to their differing designs, materials, construction, etc.?? It's all just personal preference owing to what one used first? hmmm ....
I don't recall offering good, bad or indifferent opinions about either yet and will not yet. I'm an observer for the present. Is that acceptable?
You don't need my acceptance, Woody.
I was just puzzled that you saw no value in the comments other than expressions of preference.
It's just dawgs. Nothing serious. I mean it's not like we're talking about micro bevels or chinese knock-off planes or something really life and death. ;-)
There you go again with mis-quotes. I "haven't Expressed any value in..." would be a little more accurate. Hey, I just asked for some more background on them for a little self education. I know you guys are having fun and believe me, I'm enjoying that as much as you.
I apologize if I misunderstood you. You said:
Folks that start with round holes tend to defend them, folks that start with square ones tend to defend them, period. So what's best???? Ask Frank, ask Mike, ask whomever. Nine out of ten answers is going to be based on what they started out using.
I took this to mean that you found none of the commnets enlightening about which is objectively "best" because people were failing to express anything other than subjective preferences - preferences that stem from the fortuity of what they used first.
There are objective difference that have been pointed out:
for example, LV's round dogs try to achieve the holding strength of angled square dogs by recessing and angling the face of the dog; this may work so long as the dog is not raised beyond that recessed face, but what about when you wnat to used more of the dog's height for various applications? The angled face is rendered ineffective.
One conclusion one might draw from this is that if you value the flexibility of using your dogs above 1 inch from your top and the holding power bestowed by the angled aspect, square dogs are better.
No doubt round dog users can list applications where the round dog beats the square (easy of intalling as a retrofit, holding irregular shapes, etc.).
The question then becomes what your likely uses are and what you value in their capabilities. In sum, there is not one "best" that exists in some vacuum free of actual woodworkers;" there is instead a possible a best for each woodworker depending upon how they work and what they value and need in the tool.
Personally, I still prefer my square dogs with round tails. The round tail allows the dog to turn enough to conform to the clampee, and the square, well, rectangular actually, surface spreads the force out a bit. A scrap of sponge pad is also befitting of the square pants.
Ralph,
A scrap of sponge pad is also befitting of the square pants.
Here, here young man. We'lll have none of that talk on this family channel. Yer not supposed to be wearin them pants in the woodshop.
Regards, Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Well to be fair Mike started out using rectangular and uses round now.I like the traditional bench for holding drawers and for other hand tool work. To put in rectangular after the bench is built ( especially in my seriously hard purpleheart bench ) is a night mare.If you want to try round get a factory made maple top that is thick enough to hold dawgs where ever you want to drill them and try out the round. You can get one of these tops for less than the price of the wood I bought for my top. The glued seams are better than you could active at home in theory any way.Drill some holes and go to town. Later if you decide to try the rectangular dogs and build a bench you won't regret having this maple work surface around. So we are back to my original thought "why not more than one bench ".Chances are until you get in a bunch of time with the tools you will be a different woodworker by the time you finish your first bench anyway. I stole that last sentence it is from this bookhttp://www.amazon.com/Workbench-Book-Craftsmans-Workbenches-Woodworking/dp/1561582700/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&s=booksqid=1240346686&sr=1-3rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )Edited 4/21/2009 4:49 pm by roc
Edited 4/21/2009 4:50 pm by roc
Al,
When ye got power tools ye don't need no stinking dog holes on ye bench, round or square.
:-)
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
When ye got power tools ye don't need no stinking dog holes on ye bench, round or square.
Unless ya want the 'stick' to shoot off of the bench!
I look like Clint but much older!
Edited 4/21/2009 10:05 pm by WillGeorge
When ye got power tools ye don't need no stinking dog holes on ye bench, round or square.
Thay do come in handy for holdin those power tools down with a bungee or two, otherwise thay tend to skip all over the bench whin ya tern um on.
You guys are more than I can take. I had to ask my grand daughter what :-) means.
>what :-) meansHey ask her what (;) means. Philip always uses it and I have no clue. Actually it looks kind of rude to me so maybe you shouldn't ask her.Ah Oh the psychiatrists in the bunch are going to go after that one. Just like an ink spot. ( : )My favorite is ROFLMAOPhilip,What does (;) mean ?rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )Edited 4/22/2009 12:38 am by roc
Edited 4/22/2009 12:39 am by roc
Roc, I asked the 15 year-old grand daughter about (;), she blushed, giggled, ROFLHAO but wouldn't tell. You'll have to get it from Philip, I guess.
BTW, I ordered a copy of The Workbench Book by Scott Landis book. Thanks. This thread does have some useful information, quite educational (to put it politely).
Al
Thanks for being so polite. Hope your bench goes really well. I hope you will post some pics.rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Edited 4/22/2009 8:49 pm by roc
The workbench exists in my shop. I built it about 3 years ago as my first semi-serious woodworking project. It uses round bench dogs. Since then, I have completed several other projects, however, I still consider myself as a beginner.
I do have some hand tools but lack experience using them. They mostly sit around collecting dust created by the power tools. This may be due to not having a workbench capable of holding the workpieces adiquately when I think back a little and remember some of the frustrations.
When you don't know what you don't know, one has a tendency to improvise a bit to accomplish certain tasks. It has worked for me quite often. My level of craftsmanship probably lacks pleanty due to this but most projects get completed and I receive a few complements now and then.
My point in entering this particular discussion was mostly curiosity. I had built a workbench that works for most woodworking tasks, looks like most of them I see in magazines and on TV and is based on some plans drawn by some woodworker, no doubt. It was a good beginner project and now it exists and works for me, so far, for my skill level and for the tools that I have been using.
Now I see that some of my frustrations when trying learn to use hand tools such as using a plane in lieu of a RO sander on a flat surface or improvising in lieu not squaring up a stopped dado with a chissel, etc. are that this workbench simply doesn't lend itself to make those tasks as easy as they could be on a different bench, one that's been tried and proven over the centuries for building things with hand tools.
Although I have not used a good cabinetmakers workbench with square bench dogs and built for using hand tools, I now understand a little more about their advantages over mine. I need a bigger shop to have room for both.
Thanks.
Sorry for being such a dummy. I went back and see that you did say you already had a bench. for some reason I thought you were building a new bench and were looking at which dawgs to put in it. Any chance of getting a photo posted on knots of your present bench or an address where I can go and look at the plans or a similar bench. I never get tired of looking at all the different work benches that people are using.Interesting you should mention the hand tools and work holding. I started on the opposite end of things. First I studied the Japanese wood working methods. Pretty much they use one stop which is merely a nail or screw driven into a skinny log that is planed flat. They put the board against this one nail and plane away.For mortising they put the work on a block of wood on the floor, sit on it and chisel away. With great speed I might add.For sawing they put the work on two blocks of wood on the floor or very low sawing horses ( see mine bellow ) and stand on it and even rip long planks this way.This was all quite interesting to me in the early years and I built stuff this way. When I got into wanting to make allot of drawers and dovetail them i found I could do it but I could have a much better time and do better work if I had the cabinet makers bench. I did some mockups to prove this to my self before making my Klausz bench. I still use the Japanese ways when they are the simplest way to go for a given task.Here are some pics of my Japanese "work benches". On the short planing beam note the screws on the ends of the beam; they are planing stops ( dogs ) that I can unscrew up to act as a planing stop.So I don't need rectangular dogs but I like 'em.Yah the "Sawing Horses" are bubinga. I got a little crazy with them but I use them all the time for various things and will for the rest of my life so I made 'em nice.The Long beam started out nearly fifteen feet long just to see what that is like. I sawed it into two to be more manageable. Here is one half standing vertically against the wall. I don't use it much now that I have my Klausz. Yes the mortice shown in the side view goes all the way through. It allowed me to put a deep throat bessy clamp through the beam and I used it like a shoulder vise.And finally some thing great to look at for all those who are bored looking at my Japanese "benches". NO I DID NOT MAKE THESE CHAIRS. Some day though ! Some day ! ! !rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )Edited 4/23/2009 10:00 pm by roc
Edited 4/23/2009 11:02 pm by roc
Roc,
Aieeee! When I opened that pic of the chair it scuttled towards me with an evil intent!! I shut the pic off quick-like and the scuttler was magicked back into the electronic aether. You should not let monsters loose like that on the unwary.
If you tie it up so it can't scuttle I'll burn it for you, down on the ladywife's allotment bonty where other diseased bits of wood are dealt with. I will issue earplugs to the gardeners so they don't have to put up with it's screams for mercy or the final curses it issues agin hooman-kind (or hooman-nasty, in my case) as it goes up in smoke and returns to the netherworld from whence it sprang, via the suborning of some poor woodworker's wetware.
The simplicity of that Japanese style is quite appealing - or would be if I could bend my body into those crouches and squats without my joints welding themselves together and my tendons snapping. Age is a terrible affliction to those who remain 15 & 3/4 years-old in their head.
Finally - square dawgs: their time is passed and they should join them scuttle-monsters on the bonty. :-) Kidding, just kidding - honest.
Lataxe, too hip to be square.
>chair it scuttled towards me with an evil intent!!Sounds like you are now channelling Hunter S. Thompson.Is this how it is for you ? Watch 'till the end . . . that bit.?http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c9Kx_t6ko1k&feature=related?You know he lived here in Wild Wild West USA. See how it is out here ?
rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )Edited 4/24/2009 5:36 am by roc
Edited 4/24/2009 5:41 am by roc
Lataxe,
Gadroons are your friend.
Here's an image that will haunt your dreams:
http://www.jakecress.com/2001images/oops030202.jpg
Jake is an acquaintance of mine, a grade-A bonafide character.
also:
View Image
Ray
Ray,
Aieeee! Do not let them chair thangs party together otherwise they will breed! Wee scuttlers everywhere, climbing up your trooser to nip off the vitals.
Lataxe, who has a hard enough time with the cat and his claws when it comes to vital-protection.
PS I have sent you some wetware-stirrers. Gird your most precious memes for they are to be assaulted.
Lataxe, who has a hard enough time with the cat and his claws when it comes to vital-protection.
Sorry all!
I just HAD to bump this post when I saw the words above.. I picked out 'the cat and 'his' claws'. Good thing it was a male cat! A female cat with claws is WAY more dangerous! The Male cat just shadow boxing with you!
No Cats now, but had more than a few beautiful, of different kinds. I like them ALOT!
I see them, They see me. I feed and give water they never seem to drink. We see each other, at times, and avoid each other if possible.. We got along... Well...
Lataxe, ye ol rascal,
I thought those chairs might give you a bad dream or two. heheh
Something in the mail, eh?
I am, like the cat who ate cheese and sat by the mousehole, waiting with "baited" breath.
Can't hardly wait to have my wetware stirred, but, I hope, not shaken, like 007's martinis.
Ray
Glad it's settled!
traditional Klausz style rectangular dogs are at least Pre 1950..
The first time I heard 'Rock Around The Clock' (1950) I ran out to my shop and drilled round holes into the square holes in my bebch...
>Klaus style rectangular dogs are at least Pre 1950.<Yes that is an understatement. I know the Roman benches ca 250 B.C. had at least one square dog so that is pre 1950 alright. Frank Klausz made his first truly great bench in the eighties.Then in 2004 he made another benchhttp://www.workbenchdesign.net/frankbench.htmlhttp://www.woodcentral.com/chats/chat_klausz40223.shtmlStill using only the Pre 1950s rectangular dogs. I bet if you called him up he would be glad of your help to drill out his old fashioned dog holes and allow you to drag him into the 21st century. He probably doesn't realize what he is missing. : )Yah right.rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Edited 4/21/2009 11:18 pm by roc
The article never says that round dogs are better than square dogs, only that they are more versatile. That is, they can handle a broader range of tasks. And I don't think that anyone can reasonably argue otherwise.
It's like the old saying, "Jack of all trades, master at none." It's always a trade-off.
-Steve
I don't use no dogs. I clamp my folded up Workmate to the bench, lay a short pipe clamp down between the jaws, the work gets clamped by the pipe clamp, then the pipe clamp gets clamped by the workmate jaws. Nothin moves atall. Plus I'm not bending over for planing or sanding or sculpting out saddles or nothin else.
Beautiful day here in Massanuicance, plus the Sox are beating the Yanks right now, again.
Veg,
Your idea of using your Workmate for clamping to your bench is one of those astoundingly brilliant ideas that only occurs every few thousand years. You must send it into Fine Woodworking, and you will probably be rewarded with something nice like a WorkSharp.Please post a photo of your setup. I am intrigued by it. This could revolutionize bench design, and reinvigorate the Workmate's worldwide sales. I wouldn't doubt that Cbristopher Schwartz picks up on this. He is quite a whiz at workbenches, and he likes to stay on the cutting edge.This could be the biggest thing to hit woodworking since Tom Lie Nielsen decided to make planes. Nice going.
Mel
PS never once in my life have I ever exaggerated.
Well, maybe once or twice. :-)Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Well Jeez, heck of compliment considering where it came from. This guy Christopher Shwartz has had a lot of great ideas. (I just looked him up) I will post a picture, tho my favorite workbench looks pretty humble. (drawers made of ammo boxes, I forget where I got the bench, but it was definitely free) I love using stuff that's hanging around to make jigs that work really good, but they only work pretty, they don't look pretty. Took on my first chair job, and I must have made, I dunno, two or three dozen jigs so far. One was a mortising jig, it evolved over 2 months of work, and at it's center is a ten dollar vise. I'm using floating tenons, so I had to mortise accuratly into endgrain I have to make every step of chair building idiot proof so I can handle it. I was thinking of selling an article to FWW on all my inventions. I also made a very groovy machine out of two plastic barrells, some threaded rod, nuts and washers, two by fours, plenty of little nuts and bolts and some leftover red oak. It changed the whole way my farm plants it's crops, and I'm very proud of it. A dibbler is what it's called. (Imagine what Lataxe could do with that)
Tom,
You are an inventor! And you are a man after my own heart. The tools don't have to be good lookin, or come in a presentation box, but you have to be able to use them to make beautiful things. THAT IS THE ESSENCE OF WOODWORKING, IMHO. Tools are just tools, not something to be prayed to, and fawned over. Tools are a means toward and end, and not an end in themselves, IMHO. You and I may be the only two people on Knots who feel that way. I would love to see photos of your inventions, along with an explanation. Not just the workbench. I tend to doubt that FWW would buy an article from you. That is just an opinion. I believe you have a better shot at getting them to publish one of your inventions in their Tips and Tricks section, or whatever it is called. While I find FWW to contain much useful information, it has some large flaws. It takes a hoity toity view of things, rather than a utilitarian view (overall). eg overly fancy and focusses on expensive stuff. But you have to consider that they live off of the money they make on advertising, so they can't upset the advertising crowd. Their view on tools spills over to Knots. I noticed they made Derek their tool specialist and put a tool next to his name. If I were to pick a tool specialist on Knots, it would be Ray Pine. Ray's expertise is in making magnificent furniture using tools. His expertise with tools shows in his finished products. He knows how much to sharpen, and what tools are needed, and how to use them efficiently and effectively. Derek rarely talks about making things with tools, except for presentation boxes for his tools, which are, IMHO, overly pretty. That isn't bad or evil. It just doesn't have anything to do with woodworking. Ray is the essence of fine woodworking, yet he doesn't have an expert sign next to his name. Ray has consistently given great advice, and he does it often. I originally thought that omitting Ray as an "expert", and listing Derek as a "tool expert" were two bad errors. But further reflection tells me that I am wrong. If I were to select Derek as the Tool Guy and omit Ray as an Expert, that would be a horrible set of errors on my part. However, I wasn't the party making the selection. The selection tells you much about the people doing the selection. It is their right and duty to do as they see fit. I guess the fact that we have diversity in the world is what makes it so interesting. I am severely disappointed in the group that made the selections, but I look on the bright side. They have given us a deeper peek into their souls. It took me over a year to determine who I think of as experts here on Knots. By that I mean, -- to determine who I would ask questions to. Some of the folks I would list as an expert might disagree. That is their option. For example, Sean (Samson) has extremely high standards. I read everything he writes. He has a VERY GOOD SOUL. He focusses on quality. He does take a long time to make things, but so what. To me, Ray is the best of the best. Rob Millard is right up there with him, although he doesn't spend nearly as much time answering questions from others. Danmart is topnotch. Look at his work. Read his words. This guy is an artist-craftsman on the highest plane. I could go on. Maybe we should have a thread on "who are the REAL experts here on Knots". And more importantly, how does one tell if another is an expert, and not a poseur? I believe that shows with time. For example, Charles (Boss Crunk, Riverprof, and other names) sounds very knowledgeable, but he doesn't post photos of his work, and he can be very negative, but despite his self imposed shortcomings, he seems to be generally right on technical issues, and more importantly on values in woodworking. You can tell, my values are on skill in using tools, not on pretty tools. I value a focus on the end-game - Making Furniture - and on being creative in doing it. Based on your workbench and your creative tool-making, I am adding you to my list of Experts here on Knots. Keep focussing on whatever it takes to make good furniture! Help the rest of us by showing us your inventions. Maybe some of it will rub off on us. I nominate you as an associate editor for Fine Woodworking. I would like the magazine staff to start thinking more like you! (not much chance of that, but I can dream)I have a "expert list" on the wall next to my computer. You are now on it. That and $4 will get you a cup of coffee at Starbucks. Are you taking on apprentices?
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
The tools don't have to be good lookin, or come in a presentation box, but you have to be able to use them to make beautiful things.
I think why my wife married me.
WE had BEAUTIFUL... AND very smart and respectful Children. Her doing not mine. I just went along for the ride.
No disrespect to my wife.. She was just 'Perfect' for this old man! We got along, I think from my point of view...
Edited 4/26/2009 8:35 am by WillGeorge
WG,
glad you enjoyed my joke about pentagonal dogs. I think you know that I use humor because plain old insults are boring. To me, an overly long discussion about dogs is about as interesting as a long discussion on whether flat or round toothpicks are better for tightening up chair rungs. I enjoy the deeper aspects of the discussions -- the underlying values and attitudes associated with great woodwork. That is what I get the most out of. Of course, I may be the only one who feels that way, but what the heck. We all got to carve our own path. Your path and my path are not among the most widely travelled. Keep on pumping.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel, Mel, Mel,The hammer signifies moderation, not expertise.-Steve
Steve,
Did you take the time to read my entire two volume message? :-) I thought you had better things to do, like woodworking.
Hey, I used my chainsaw blades on a piece of Chestnut last week. WHAT A MESS. That stuff is sticky and gooey, and it clogged up my chains and carving dishes in nothing flat. Luckily there is not much chestnut around anymore.
Enjoy,
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
I do have better things to do, like woodworking, but I'm right now I'm computer-working, which means I have the odd few minutes here and there while the compiler is a-compiling and the linker is a-linking.
-Steve
Steve,
Sounds like you need a more challenging job. Want to work at Woodcraft? :-)
I was thinking of making a list of the 20 most difficult to answer questions I have been asked here, but I'd probably be sued.
Computers are easier than wood. Do they still do core dumps?
When I was at Penn State, I needed two "language requirements". They let me do German and Fortran. To get credit for the German, you just took a test. To get credit for Fortran, you had to write a program that the computer library didn't have, and would accept into their library. I did multivariate analysis of variance. That was about 1967. The worst thing you could hear was "Dropped deck." I should have saved a deck of those Hollerith cards. A lot better than the old puched paper tape. :-)
My program was accepted!!!!!! Now I am qualified to spend 10 hours a week at Woodcraft. The most ticklish questions I get are ones that cannot be answered truthfully without insulting the person. One guy said, "I want to carve this fish, full size. What chisels do I need? What type of wood is best?"
I suggested a book on learning to carve. He said NO. I asked if he knew how to sharpen gouges. He asked what a gouge was. He said "oh, you mean a chisel?" Of course, I said, Yes. He asked why they needed to be sharpened, since they come sharp. That customer put my manners to the test. Luckily I knew about Chris Pye's intro to carving which uses fish as the initial project. It says what gouges you need and shows you how to sharpen and everything else you need. I showed him how to get it on Amazon, since we don't sell it. He left happy. Computer work is much simpler than this stuff, especially since they have come up with advanced languages like Pascal. Yuk yuk. Doncha just love structured programming? Me, I am Italian. I love spaghetti code.
Have fun. Stay sane. Keep up that sense of humor. Humor is the last bastion of sanity. At least someone in an asylum told me that.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
The technical challenge never gets to me. The customers' internal politics sometimes does.
You should have told the guy that the gouge was for gouging out the fish's eyes (for that realistic dead fish look).
Here's a little program for you to chew on: sieve (x:xs) = x : (sieve $ filter (y -> (rem y x) /= 0) xs)
pairs (x1:x2:xs) = (x1,x2) : pairs (x2:xs)
twins (xs) = filter(x -> ((snd x) - (fst x)) == 2) xs
nthTwinPrimePair n = head $ drop (n - 1) $ twins $ pairs $ sieve [2..]
(And in case you were wondering, no, most of my code doesn't look anything like that.)
-Steve
Steve,
your program appears to try to find the Nth "Twin Prime" in
Haskell. I am not a Haskell specialist. I barely knew Fortran IV. Have fun. Nice challenge.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
Fortran IV! Well I DECLARE.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,
How are things up there in Vermont? Is the syrup ready yet?Which Fortran version did you first encounter?Did you see the program that Steve presented me with?
Did I do well with my answer? I am continually amazed by the intellectual power here on Knots. If it is ever focussed on woodwork, we would solve all woodworking issues in a matter of nano seconds. But then the fun would be gone. Remember: Anyone can create a problem, but to create a really big problem, you need a computer. Actually, I cant complain. Computer science fueled much of my career, and some real zip in it. MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel..
Remember: Anyone can create a problem, but to create a really big problem, you need a computer.
And then again all 'I have to do' is open my mouth and say a few words!
>all 'I have to do' is open my mouth and say a few words!I now how that is : (When I was young grown ups and superiors used to say "What's wrong ? You never say anything. It can't be as bad as all that. " Most of 'em wished they hadn't a said that.Since I developed the bad habit I can't seem to break it.rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Hi Mel,
How are things up there in Vermont? Is the syrup ready yet?
Great! Syrup is ready and some of the best in years. C'mon up and have some on French Toast, my treat. Fresh eggs from the chickens, homemade jam, hand ground coffee and imported orange juice from Florida!
Ummmmmmmmmmmmm, yummy.
Fortran? Me I started using it with IV. Thing is they found bugs in the compiler. Hell back in 1999 there was this thing about when actually is Y2K? Did the years start at 0 or 1? Jeeeeesh, weren't there more important things to think about?
Just remember Mel, real programmers write in BASIC, interpretive BASIC that is. Compilers are for sissies! Morning Steve, and welcome back.
Oh yeah, and another thing: Remember: Anyone can create a problem, but to create a really big problem, you need a computer.
Nah, it's the hoomans that creates the problem(s), dang puters jes make em bigger faster. Or is it faster bigger?
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 4/27/2009 5:49 am ET by KiddervilleAcres
Edited 4/27/2009 5:51 am ET by KiddervilleAcres
Bob,
I will be up soon to visit you and to the the lobsters in your great state of Maine. BASIC. Wow you got to write in and interpreted language. They made me write in assembler. But the real fun is actual machine code. That gives you real control. It is like having a Lie Nielsen #8 to smooth the surfaces of your little boxes. Had some fun yesterday. I know it is not good practice to talk about woodwork here on Knots, but I actually did some. I am making a rocking chair, actually a glider, for my grandson. To make the rounded back, I glued five pieces of oak together to make a block that is 4" x5" x 14", and then made a circle jig with a 15" radius and cut two rounded pieces from the block. Maybe next time, I'll cut thin strips, steam, and form the back. Lots of things to try. Of course, now I will have to make a compass plane to do the inside curves of the back. Or perhaps I'll just use sandpaper on a piece of two by four cut to the right curve. Freddy is only one year old. He won't know the difference. In the last two days, I have also put up shelves in the wash room. So my chair work was a "step up" from that stuff. Still not up to Maloof. Maybe after I have one of those Maine lobsters from your backyard, I'll try some of the difficult stuff. Of course, I will make a presentation box for Freddy's glider. That won't be a problem. However, I plan to give my brother a band saw for Christmas, and I want to make a presentation box for it. Any suggestions? Sorry about actually talking about doing woodwork. It just slipped.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
C'mon up but ye better hurry cuz the toast is gettin cold and the bacon is too. We import lobsters from Maine up here but the best lobster I ever had was in Utah though.
Hey, bring that Ray fella with ye. I hear he's got some nice Ginny hams.
I really preferred BAL (Basic Assembler Language) 'cause it's as close to machine code as you can get. None of that compiler fluff gettin in the way. Once wrote a BAL routine that made the tape drive pass the tape back and forth till it flattened the wrinkles out. Then the read/write head could see the bits on the tape.
Wang developed a machine language subset inside their interpretive BASIC machine that allowed programmers to communicate with an I/O controller. You could write an entire teletype emulator in one BASIC command.
Kinda like chasin those elusive .001" shavings from a blade.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 4/27/2009 7:59 am ET by KiddervilleAcres
>a band saw . . . presentation box for itAssuming you are serious, and I think you are, you could try a motorcycle crate turned on end. I have no idea even what they are like but I heard they come in crates.?. . .? . . . ? what ? ?? you were kidding weren't you ? Dang !! It ! ! !
rocGive me six hours to chop down a tree and I will spend the first four sharpening the axe. Abraham Lincoln ( 54° shaves )
Edited 4/27/2009 11:12 pm by roc
Roc,
Yup, I was kidding about the presentation box for a band saw.Why shouldn't a presentation box have its own presentation box? If that is the case, where does it stop? That's quite an idea -- nested presentation boxes.Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
The Russians got there first:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matryoshka_doll
-Steve
Steve,
I think the Shakers beat the Russians. In any case, that is what I want to believe.
ttp://http://www.shakerworkshops.com/catalog/browse/shaker-oval-boxes?gclid=CN_v_P2plJoCFQhhnAodmWI7Nw
Have fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Bob,
There's a programming language called Unlambda that's just the thing for you. It's as close to the metal as you can get, except in this case the "metal" is "mathematical metal"; it's the purest essence of mathematics.
Here's an Unlambda program that prints the Fibonacci numbers as strings of asterisks: ```s``s``sii`ki
`k.*``s``s`ks
``s`k`s`ks``s``s`ks``s`k`s`kr``s`k`sikk
`k``s`ksk
The output looks like: *
*
**
***
*****
********
etc.
-Steve
Steve,
Thanks man, good old fashioned belly laugh.
I'll catch ye later, gotta torture some more wood.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
REAL programming used to done in machine language! I remember how excited I was when I got my first exposure to APL around 1969-70! Life was going to be good...until I found out that memory usage was several times more than I could do it in machine code and execution time was much longer. These disadvantages were more than offset by the fact that a program could be written and debugged much faster than the Stone Age method I had been using up until then. Ah, the good old days! Regards,Ron
Edited 4/27/2009 8:47 pm ET by RonInOttawa
Ron,
Oh yeah. When I first started for Wang the machine had an 8k memory space to work in. They kept pumping up the memory binarily til I had 64k and though I'd died and went to heaven.
It was quite a step up from an IBM-029 Keypunch machine though. Funny thing is I always thought IBMs 3270 workstations were not much more than a glorified keypunch machine.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Don't get me started on "real programming", or I'll break out my slide ruler, and teach you how to use it.Oh, and Real Carpenters can figure rise, run, sales tax, braces, board feet, hip, valley and common rafters, volume by the bale, cubic foot or cubic yard on a framing square.So don't go "real" on me unless you can tell me what the black diamonds on your tape measure are for.
Were you born naturally insensate or did you have to go to a school and study it?
................................................
Men will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.~ Denis Diderot
Don,
I yam going to learn the abacus, just to outdo that Jampot. I suspect he has himself succumbed to numerology, which is known to cause spasms and tremors in the wetware with the consequent outbursts.
Lataxe, only just numerate and bordering on illittahrut hisself (compared to sum lads).
>Don,I yam going to learn the abacus, just to outdo that Jampot.<If you ask me, the abacus is yet another crutch for the weak-minded. And you would no doubt need the gold-plated fancy one to get any work done.Myself, I am building a stone temple to the sun god. The dimensions and orientation of my temple to the seasonal celestial swing of the starfield will provide the algorithmic engine for all of the calculating I will ever need to do."Yes, but what's good for me ain't necessarily good for the weak-minded." - Augustus McCrae, Lonesome Dove
Ed,
Yes, my abacus would need to sport multi-coloured gems & pearls on its gold rails. Also, I might have a maiden to operate it for me as it may prove obscure.
When your temple is finished I will pay a visit to burn it down as a heretical structure. I have yet to postulate the set of rules that will be broken heretically by your pagan stuff, of course. Perhaps I will have a word with one of the Knots adamantine men, as they have reams of obscure rules about virtually everythin'. Most are Puritans of one ilk or another, judging by they way they mumble what might otherwise make a fine rant. In any event, they will take agin' your idolotrous temple.
No doubt the Sun God will protect you, should you abase yoursen sufficiently in its direction. Try to draw the line at human sacrifice - although I do have a list should you go ahead.
Lataxe, a little heathen.
Edited 4/29/2009 2:25 pm ET by Lataxe
Good post. For once, you win."Yes, but what's good for me ain't necessarily good for the weak-minded." - Augustus McCrae, Lonesome Dove
I actually have a slide rule somewhere, complete with its leather case. I doubt I would have a clue how to use it now! OH. . .the black diamonds are used to measure and mark trusses (I think).Cheers,Ron
You can refresh your slide rule skills here:
http://www.antiquark.com/sliderule/sim/n909es/virtual-n909-es.html
-Steve
Very cool. Brings back some interesting times in physics labs. I'd have to have 3.25 magnifiers now to use one. I had the traditional student "Post" slider but also a beautiful fully gunned engineers model. My father had an Ivory one. All gone over the years.BB
correct - every every 19.2 inches.
Jam,
black diamonds on your tape measure
Huh, what's a tape measure?
As a furniture maker I rarely use a tape measure; they're simply not accurate enuf. Of course when I do carpentering I use one but framing doesn't require a high degree of accuracy anyway.
A calculator works for me but I prefer using the computer, especially when doing design work. Using CAD programs one can see what they final result will actually look like before comitting materials. Saves a lot of time and that's money, right?
I suppose for the computer challenged a slide rule and tape measure may have its advantages. My PC is a slide rule and much more; with a mouse, keyboard, monitor and CPU(brain).
Given all the tools available, when all is said and done what matters most is when the metal hits the wood.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Is this what ya talkin' about.. I can do things in C# buy nothing math related!
http://hackage.haskell.org/trac/haskell-prime/
Edit:
I always loved Math but never had a brain to do it! Yes, I could pass a test BUT I KNEW I had no idea what I was doing!
Edited 4/26/2009 9:32 pm by WillGeorge
Mel,
It doesn't just try to find the n'th twin prime pair, it succeeds.
nthTwinPrimePair 100 --> (3821,3823)
nthTwinPrimePair 1000 --> (79559,79561)
-Steve
Steve,
Give that program to any 100 people on Knots.
How many of them will answer as correctly as I did?
Not bad for an old guy, Eh? ((I learned the last word "Eh" in Maine, during a visit, a number of years ago when I learned to give directions the Main way. eg
" So ya want to get to the old Smith place, do ya, eh?
Well, ya go up the road til just before ya see the old church.
Then go left, and head to where the Jones farm used to be."It doesn't compile, but what the hay? Not all of the programs I wrote compiled either. You cant beat Prolog. Too bad it didn't work out. :-) MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
What program?
Jam,You asked about the program that Steve sent me and asked if I could identify what it is trying to do. Here is the program he posted earlier on this thread. sieve (x:xs) = x : (sieve $ filter (y -> (rem y x) /= 0) xs)
pairs (x1:x2:xs) = (x1,x2) : pairs (x2:xs)
twins (xs) = filter(x -> ((snd x) - (fst x)) == 2) xs
nthTwinPrimePair n = head $ drop (n - 1) $ twins $ pairs $ sieve [2..]MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel,
You're past old; you're timeless. That's why that kind of stuff is so easy for you: You can take as long as you want to solve a problem, and to the rest of us, it's the blink of an eye.
-Steve
Mel.. Sorry I had to respond..
Your comments..
It doesn't compile, but what the hay? Not all of the programs I wrote compiled either.
Ya' ALOT smarter that ya put on!
My program.. OK so it took ALONG time to do! Maybe your Son may like.. For a good laugh if nothing else. It is OK if he laughs.. I did it MANY times when making it!
http://www.codeplex.com/nxtcodecollection
Mel .. You know of a child that just HAS TO HAVE A NXT ROBOT?.. I will send IF the child is under 65 years old.. For free if supply postage!
I even had one person that (EDIT: That liked it!) Reply! LOL.. Life is Great.. Life is good!
Edited 4/29/2009 1:22 pm by WillGeorge
Edited 4/29/2009 1:27 pm by WillGeorge
WG,
I don't do computer science any more. Now I do woodwork and have other kinds of fun.
MelMeasure your output in smiles per board foot.
In the last issue, we have a definitive conclusion: round benchdogs are more versatile than square ones!
I would say a set of both is in order! Depending on your mood that day!
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