Not that I mind that certain threads are closed for further discussion after some of the writers become too quarrelsome but I seemed to have missed the thread from Gina (et al FWW Staff) where all our Gavel people have been given expanded powers and are now Sysops with the abilities to discontinue, close or move threads around. Is this something new, or was I just not paying attention? On the surface, it would appear to be part of a management effort to have their forum oversight time diverted to more profitable site/magazine activities.
Is this good policy?
Just something I noticed recently…
Boiler
Replies
Well, good on the Gavels if they can do that, is my thought, and it's not a requirement for notification.
E.g., the Ethan Allen thread, it has broken well off topic, beyond the usual satellite digressions, and has morphed into the typical Knots screed-a-palooza where howler monkeys angrily pace in the trees and throw (ahem), stuff at each other.
Take that to the Cafe, or squelch it totally. Kill enough threads, send a few warnings, people will get the drift and actually talk about woodworking until the thread naturally comes to an end.
Edited 7/20/2009 10:04 am ET by Hamelech
As I said, I don't mind if certain threads....
but closing these and other options such as eliminating people who routinely disrupt the forum should be left to the Warden and not to the inmates.
So far the Warden has done just fine-with the exception of moving too slow --- perhaps off making to many video productions.
As was first explained when the Gavels became a fact, they were to guide. Not control.
True, much should be moved to the cafe and that is where a gavel should guide (operative is guide) such when it has strayed in the dark side. To actually move the thread though -- that is the pervue of the owner's sysop.Right now, we have a discussion on Azek. For all intents and purposes -- plastic. It's not necessarily fine woodworking but at what point will someone in their version of oversight decided to close it or announce that it's being moved to Breaktime. If you don't like a thread, don't read it. It will die a natural death but in the case of Ethan Allen, I agree. I just don't agree that another member who is not responsible for the running of the forum should have any independent authority to such unilateral action. If a Gavel steps in and says he/she will recommend...that's one thing but to "do" is another. I don't think anyone here that is familiar with Sawmill Creek would want the control that is maintained on that site.Boiler
bb .
I basically agree , however the thread could have been easily moved to the cafe instead of closed , perhaps uncle Bob will reconsider and move it .
after all you don't see problems in the cafe , and if it is off topic or political it belongs there don't you think ?
What do you get when you have more then one woodworker ? opinions , God forbid .
d
Dusty,I personally didn't care for the thread and the Cafe would have been more appropriate. It has nothing to do with Bob or Richard personally, it's just I'd rather it was done by management (and in the case of that particular thread-sooner)John
Perhaps Gavels and Fire E's could be considered as the trustees of the prison - eyes and ears that stop small problems before they burst into bigger problems, for which the Warden would respond with guards dressed in riot gear, dispensing pepper spray. Taunton pays for the forum, they own the rules, they can change the definition of guide v. control as they see fit to make the forum more amenable to its members. As such, consider there will be cases where control comes out superior to guidance. Momma said life wasn't always fair.Cheers,Seth
Hey John ,
I was under the impression the gavel holders were to insure folks posted in the correct place and to make sure "expert " advice was found when one was looking for it , I could be wrong on that one .
There are only a few gavel holders to my knowledge and they are fine folks
I do remember something about the paid ask an experts portion of the website no longer being paid to answer questions as was included in the price originally .So this may be another way to ensure folks get answers , and can save FWW $ also , and in turn be able to keep this site going for a while longer .
All they really have to do is start charging to access the site , I'm sure many non gavel holders will not pay so therefore with fewer folks to herd into the correct folders and such fewer experts would be needed .
regards from down in the valley 100°
dusty and hot
Dusty
"There are only a few gavel holders to my knowledge and they are fine folks"I very much agree.Sorry about the 100s - it's 62 here.
Wish it were in between. That way all of Portland wouldn't come knocking every weekend.
Take careJohn
Gavel holders and people with an E surmounted by a fire next to their name, eg, me, can move threads, edit posts from just about anybody, delete anybodies posts and close threads.
I have never taken any of those actions, although I was tempted to take one or more of those steps as I watched the Ethan Allen thread degenerate into farce over the end of last week and into the Sunday just passed.
I did eventually enter the thread and make a comment or three, primarily to suggest that the tone of later posts weren't really advancing much in the way of sensible measured discourse. Bob came in after me and decided to close the thread down. Slainte.
richardjonesfurniture.com
As I said, I don't disagree with the actions. I just don't believe that experts/gavels should have that authority. You all just members. Before this, if there was a problem the previous experts, Gary, Peter etc may have had the power but never exercised it. When they left, the new experts/gavels "powers" were never fully explained at the time or maybe I missed it.Boiler
"I just don't believe that experts/gavels should have that authority."
They do though, and that is something I think you would have to discuss with the Taunton management and not with me. Slainte.richardjonesfurniture.com
I agree and I was just putting it out there.
The last thing I remember seeing about what who would do was Gina's original notice:45447.1 which said nothing about moving, closing etc.Boiler
Is this good policy?
Not if they want to keep their subscribers!
Over the past few years I have notice a degradation in both the publication and the online services provided by FWW and this action doesn’t surprise me.
I am afraid that FWW has all but abandoned the Knots forum, it’s evident by this decision that it is low on their priorities and by this decision has reduced Knots to the level of a everyday common forum.
After 20 years as a subscriber I finally had enough!!! FWW has lost creditability and has eliminated any possible consideration of my re-subscribing to their services.
The Knots Forum is DEAD!!! What a sad day for woodworkers!
"The Knots Forum is DEAD!!! What a sad day for woodworkers!"Nonsense, man.
But pop along to any other forum in the meantime and see which is best.....(;)Philip Marcou
"Nonsense, man.
But pop along to any other forum in the meantime and see which is best.....(;)"AgreedBoiler
So this has become a moderated forum. Big deal!I've been here for about 15 months and while I have subscribed to a number of other WW fora I spend most of my time here 'cos both the advice and the company are great.I have to say though that in the past few months the bickering has increased and definitely brought down the "tone" of the place.All the good fora I know are moderated and maintain a decent "signal to noise" ratio. There usually is room for off-topic chats and spats in a separate section of the forum.Maybe somebody can create an off topic-zone and even, possibly, a boxing ring. Idle chit chat between on-topic posts is one thing. Blatant hijacking and aggressive posts are at a different level and I suspect unpleasant for most people.
It has always been a moderated forum. For off topic we have the Cafe. If you don't see it in your list, just write to GEide (Gina) for permission to enter.
Boiler
Personally, I don't have a problem with a user forum being managed by other willing users, as long as the so-appointed are level-headed, even-handed, and knowledgeable. Taunton's choices, IMHO, were spot-on in all cases.
Knots is a highly-useful resource for all of us, in terms of technique, product experience, and, to a lesser degree, social networking. I appreciate the fact that "The Gavels" have agreed to devote time (without compensation) to that effort. Appointing "Gavels" is far better than simply closing Knots down, I think. Even with the volunteers, the costs of running the forum (resources, bandwidth, etc.) are still pretty hefty, I'd guess.
"The Gavels" have agreed to devote time (without compensation)"
Ralph, there are some compensations. I get a free issue of Fine Woodworking sent to me. I also have access to the subscription section of Taunton's website. I have visited that area perhaps three times since I was asked to don the fiery E logo hat some six or eight months back. Slainte.richardjonesfurniture.com
Richard, thanks for the "full disclosure". FWIW, I would consider a free subscription to be a (well-deserved) gratuity, not "compensation", however.
Compared to a lot of other forums, I find FWW has been very fair with all of us. I would hate to see it shut down. All the gavels and experts I have had any dealings with have been pleasant, and well tone.
Lets just try our best to keep things going on a productive course, help where one can. And seek out advice when in doubt about something. It seems to me that this has become our community, and as such it will be what we contribute to it. We seem to have one of the top forums in the woodworking arena now, lets all try a little harder.
Taigert
I've been participating in (on) Knots for several years. Sometimes I've asked questions, and sometimes I've put in my two cents worth. I've also seen threads completely hijacked to the point that the title had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with what was being posted. There are people on all different boards who 'specialize' in hijacking threads. They write something that has nothing to do with the topic knowing that three other guys will jump in and it goes downhill from there.
The small group of 'Gavels and Fiery E's' are all people I've come to respect for their judgement, knowlege, and their sense of humor. I TRUST THEM. If they think a thread should be moved or terminated, then it should. The small honorarium they receive .... subscription to the magazine is just a small thank you for the hours they spend reading through some of the stuff we post. I've signed off from several boards because the garbage replies were getting both nasty and stupid. Hang around some of the other boards and you'll soon be back here where you CAN and WILL get help with woodworking problems.
SawdustSteve Long Island, NY (E of NYC)
Steve,I also have been around a while--perhaps as long. I just didn't work the board back when it first started. I didn't become active on it until 3 years ago. I have been with the magazine since #1 but that also is irrelevant.
No one has said anything about trust. I also like and enjoy what they have to say but that's not the point.
Never was.
The original monitoring process worked for years and now it's apparently at the whim of individual subscribers as to wether or not to alter, move, change or otherwise do something. Everyone has off days as we have seen a few times when the gavels were left on instead of off.
It has nothing to do with the meter of a thread changing either. If that were the case, the "Big Thread" would have been moved or scrapped many times. We all are used to that.
It has nothing to do with free copies. I don't know where that came from.Unless there is a message I haven't seen more recent than the one I highlighted, the general populace on this forum was never informed of these new unilateral powers. Only about the bestowing of icons. That's all I was pointing out.
I already pointed out other forums that were worse. I'm on many off an on. That also is not the issue.To reiterate again, it's not about having designated helpers or experts. I agree with that move -- if it were just limited to guidance. I would rather it was management in the active role and not subscribers when it comes to altering the threads.
If there was an actual notice given out about such delegations, please inform me.
Show me the message number.With that information, I can make an informed decision as to how I may respond to another subscriber as all would not necessarily then be on an equal footing.My last question to all was "Is this good policy?Apparently most think it is. I don't. Unfortunately this thread may take on it's own life with many people going off on it. Something about flintlocks and cold dead fingers :)Not my intent. Nuff said.Boiler
bb , John ,
Whether we have seen any such notice (I haven't either) or not really makes little difference , if it is good policy or not it is just our opinion .
We are not following Roberts Rules where the chair / Gavel must remain neutral , these rules are Tauntons not anyone elses. We are guests here and besides what they get paid for the advertisements , this cannot be a revenue producing segment of Taunton .
Experience has taught me that venues without revenue have no budgets in the real world in general .So,, Knots has a sort of do it your self system I suppose .
Many including myself get a little wound up now and then over certain topics but in general we are talking wood and related matters and it is a valuable resource for old timers and newbees alike IMHO .
I honestly try to help anyone that asks , it only takes a small bit of time , to me thats what Knots is all about .
For those complainers of most stuff , just quit reading the off topic or rank threads or hit the Ignore for those special folks who rub you wrong , but keep contributing or asking .
regards dusty , 103° in the shade 4:30 pm
I get the strange feeling I've missed something here, apparently a Grand Kerfuffle, but given that I have a gavel (I call it a tack hammer, actually), I'll dive in here.
First of all, if I have the ability to close or delete a thread, I'm unaware, as I've never been tempted to take such a weighty decision on myself. Personally, I consider such an action to be a Taunton-employee decision, not a lowly volunteer's. That's not to say I think all volunteers should have the same guiding principle, that's simply my own. Certainly amenable to revision under severe circumstances. [Edit: yes, that thread appeared to qualify as "severe"]
Secondly, I have moved one or two threads, but only with the permission of the OP. Since I don't have the ability to admit someone to the Cafe, I would not move a thread to the Cafe for fear the OP'd not be able to read their own thread.
"On the surface, it would appear to be part of a management effort to have their forum oversight time diverted to more profitable site/magazine activities." This sentence opens a larger can of worms for me, so BB please don't take offense at the following: It never ceases to amaze me how little appreciation many members have for the work that is involved in creating and maintaining this web site, how expensive it is, how competitive Taunton's business is and how petty the concerns about hurt feelings and thwarted libertarianism are in relationship to all of the aforementioned. There are plenty of forums out there that expressly forbid any and all talk of politics, war and other controversial matters, not to mention any kind of name-calling, etc., so those who enjoy indulging in such matters should pretty much count themselves lucky, IMHO, to be able to express themselves to some degree here at Knots, if that's their fancy.
As to the specific topic of "oversight time" simple economic survival dictates that such a task should take up a minimum of time from someone who's main job description involves developing content for a magazine or web site, not babysitting a forum. Sgian summarized the responsibilities of the E-Crown's and Gavels well, I think, we are here primarily to facilitate and provide information.
forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Edited 7/21/2009 1:30 am by forestgirl
Ahhhhh, Geeeez, the Ethan Allen thread?! Once again, a thread I stopped paying attention because I figured it was boring turns out to be a model of obnoxiousness. Oh, well, live and learn.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
Yeah, I quit paying attention to it as well -- too bad ;) Although, I can well imagine the 3 or 4 posters involved in the brouhaha -- been in one or two myself. Most likely involved disputes over China, the bankrupting of the US economy, and the loss of American manufacturing...
♫ If you’re OCD and you know it wash your hands ♫
forestgirl,Your quote: "Personally, I consider such an action to be a Taunton-employee decision, not a lowly volunteer's"
Exactly.
This was my point.
My only point.
X3It's about who, not what or why. It would appear by your "unaware" statement that there may be levels of gavels. Captains and Corporals as it were -- with only the Captains having authority.
AmusingA lot of other nonsense about bad threads, bad forums, free this or that, has been drawn in to this.
I have never indicated an unbridled forum. Just question who is doing the bridling.I'm sorry if someone got their feelings hurt -- by something I never said. Or implied. I don't see how libertarianisms to do with anything I said? Again with the talk of content?
An ideological belief in freedom of thought and speech has to do with content, I think.I never said anything about those that have the icons other than perhaps to praise. I enjoy the collective inputs. Nor about what has been edited per se by Taunton -- other than my agreement with removal of the Ethan Allen thing.
Agreed that is was done, yes, who did it - - no.
Again, not personal. I am looking to the power of the icon, not the person. I think you misread and infer.
Once again, unless dyslexicia is running amuck and some can't read what is actually the intent of this thread, or just being obtuse, that my issue is not with content.
I have no problem with anyone, icon or not, actively recommending to Taunton to remove offensive material or a person who is over the top.
Responses here are on going about how bad XYZ thread was and how they are glad it is monitored and in some cases removed. "Take them to Tyburn! Leave the comfy chair!" . That has to do with content, not actions, and not the original post.
That again was not the issue. Why do you all keep trying to make it that?Again, It is solely about subscribers having authority over other subscribers.
Guidance is one thing and I think helpful to some, control is something else altogether.As to your comment, "It never ceases to amaze me how little appreciation many members have for the work that is involved in creating and maintaining this web site, how expensive it is, how competitive Taunton's business is". Did I miss something? When did Taunton become a non-profit company or it became my responsibility to buttress their business in poor times? Taunton is a for-profit business and it's up to them how much they spend and how they handle competition.
I don't have to appreciate them, I'm paying them.
The fact that I continue to do so both on-line and in print is sufficient.
True, I'm not paying specifically for the "forum" itself, as at the moment it's free. As a paying member, I am still paying for their site experts but now they are gone also. Taunton has been very good about not mentioning that the forum is free and is ever hopeful of conversion to on-line membership which is becoming very profitable for a site of it's scale. The forum itself probably doesn't does provide great revenue directly but the blow-by into the site is relatively large. As are the hit numbers which translates to higher ad rates to their advertisers. Look at your "sent data" flow as your cursor (without clicking) randomly skates around the site. Your giving hit information.I wouldn't cry over the expense of the site -- it would be there if it wasn't profitable. The forum is not run by Taunton out of sweetness and light or for kind hearts and coronets. The money they spend on supporting it, including staff, is for increased profit. It's called lost leader marketing. Spell that as an increased return of investment dollars and ad sales. In addition, the person that is currently in charge of the site was specifically tasked to handle the web site and oversee the forum, as per her title.
She is good at it.To my knowledge Gina came on in the fall of 2006 as "Assistant Editor, Online". See the masthead. The site and the forum is her job and it IS to develop web content and babysit the forum. I think Ms. Eide is very good at it.
There has never been a complaint on my part about who or what is edited. As to "oversight time", that was in reference to the fact that as icons replaced the paid experts, the icon's oversight responsibilities seem to have increased on the forum, proportional to Ms. Eide's increased number of credit lines on the newer video productions.
To me that would be a string that doesn't stretch without fraying. I think it's a valid observation.
Gina does great job but as has happened recently the web manager's job has morphed with more and higher tasks as they ( lower employees) move on to the magazine side with new titles and responsibilities and previous things tend to slip a bit. We will probably have someone new yet again, whose job will be web oversight. They are not babysitting- it 's their job. I doubt if they do it for gratis. There are a lot of "against" in this post but that's because it doesn't seem to get through the haze -- as thin as it is.For the record, many of those other sites are very bad. No one is arguing this issue, yet it is still thrown out by some responders here. Some sites are bad for outrageous behavior and verbiage and yet others are derided as being over policed.Boiler
BB, as I indicated in my first post, I did go beyond your point (see the comment about a "larger can of worms" or words to that effect). As to "levels of gavels" -- the only levels I'm aware of are those distinguished by the difference between a gavel and a Blazing E -- I insisted when originally invited by Gina that I not be given and "E" as I do not consider myself an expert, hence the gavel. Any lack of awareness as to the powers that accompany that gavel are simply attributable to my lack of experimentation with the options that are available to me when I click on "Manage Discussion." I would think my restraint would please you. ;-)
Note, too, my emphasis that I personally would stop short of closing a thread -- preferring that Gina or her peer(s) take that responsibility on. Subsequently clarified by my saying that I'd certainly change my mind and close a thread if the situation were severe. And that, after reading the Ethan Allan thread, "severe" certainly applied, IMHO.
"Again, It is solely about subscribers having authority over other subscribers." It's highly unlikely that any discussion will be conducted on such a narrow basis -- too many people here are invested in the wider picture -- censorship, free expression, other areas of controversy. So if you're not prepared to allow the discussion to flow where it will, frustration will ensue, no doubt.
I stick with my position that monitoring the forum can only take a small percentage of the Editor's time (whomever it happens to be) without causing difficulties in the primary part of their job, so if they want to recruit volunteers to help, makes sense to me. forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl ;-)
"Is this good policy?"
I believe it is , and well overdue.Just lately in particular certain people have become intolerable with "opinions" repeated over and over and over and over, not to mention bigoted statements verging on defamation- examples are to hand but no need to produce them here.
I see no gavel holders or FE's that I wouldn't trust-and let's hope it stays that way.
boiler,
Question: If you can imagine that gavel isn't there for just a minute, and a discussion became marked as closed, what would you think about that?
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Bob,Before,I would have taken it that Gina or other staff had closed it. Which is they way it always worked before.Boiler
As long as the hammer is wielded fairly and impartially, I don't see where it makes any difference whose hand is on the handle.
I don't mind the tack hammers and E's. The Editors chose some fine folks as I see it. My observations were that these were members that contributed to the forum often and with a positive tone. I feel the same way about others here too. I come to this forum for help and pleasure. I find neither in political bickering. If a guest in my home behaved in what I found as negative behavior by name calling or disrespect for others I'd give him/her the boot, and tell them they aren't welcome in my home again. I would also delegate such authority to my kids even though they don't pay the mortgage.
The net is that the tack hammers and the E's live here too. If the head of the house says play nice, and has given authority to chosen members to make sure things stay nice. Fine with me. I haven't seen any abuse of power. And I don't expect that from these good folks either.
As a contributor to the Ethan Allen thread, I humbly hang my head for getting a tad to patriotic. After one post I thought I was going to get an email with a wrap on the knuckles.
It didn't happen and I will learn to hold my temper. ( Romainian and Irish blood will do this to you).As for the inner working of Knots I am just glad there is a forum were we can enjoy our free speech, which we should appreciate and not abuse. Any and all volunteer positions I respect, as with out volunteers in any capacity our lives would be of lesser quality. Wether you spend time on the net or help out at a nursing home, these acts of giving is something that gives us all, a better planet to walk on.To Woodhead I apologies for some of my comments, not knowing you beyond what is written does lead to taking some liberties, another life lesson learned.Shoe , never to proud to know when I have pushed the limits of good taste.
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