I’m building some steamer deck chairs out of mahogany. I’ve made a few of the tenons too small for the mortises (1/16″ or so) and was thinking of snugging them up with nails. (I know it’s not the prettiest or showing off any sort of craftmanship.) The other option would be to put wood pins through them.
Which do you think is the better way? And if I use nails, will galvenized work ok with the mahogony or should I use stainless. I guess I’m thinking about potential staining when they rust.
Thanks
Replies
Ken,
You've made the effort to create mortice and tenon joints, so aesthetically speaking - don't use nails. There are a few easy tricks to saving an undersized tenon.
The first would be to cut the tenon off completely, and use a floating tenon. This entails routing a mortice into the end of the wood where you just removed the tenon, and then cutting a tenon that fits into both the original mortice and the newly created one.
A second option would be to add (glue) wood back onto the undersized tenon. After it has set to full strength - recut the tenon correctly this time!
If the tenon is only a 1/16" off, glue a slightly thicker veneer of wood from the same wood stock onto the tenon. Once it's dry, use a sanding block to bring the tenon into a perfect fit.
If you have any questions, please feel free to ask!
Dan Kornfeld, Owner/President - Odyssey Wood Design, Inc.
ken
I agree with Dan whole-heartly. One more option since it is out-side furniture would be to through the tenon and wedge it. Dan's suggestion of glueing a piece of same stock to the current tenon is probably how I would go. I would slightly over-size it and take it back down with a block and shoulder plane. Pin it with a hard-wood dowel on the side least seen and flush the plug. IMO, it would look like it was part of the original plan. You won't get rated by those that see it on how you got to the finish line, just on how elogantly you crossed it. ha..ha..
Good luck...
sarge..jt
How strong/appropriate would it be to just put hardwood pins through the tenon on the least-seen side? The gaps are at most 1/16" and that's on just a few. I was a little more careful on the others.
Yeah, you're right that nails would defeat all the hard work on cutting the mortises and tenons and I won't do that. You're also right that it would be best if I were to add stock and re-cut the tenons, but these were real PITAs to cut. It's been a 9 month project so far and I'd like to finish last-year's Christmas gifts sometime before THIS Christmas. I hate to sound like I'm copping out, but like Sarge is saying, I was thinking more about crossing the finish line, haha.
Thanks!
Edited 11/4/2003 9:06:33 AM ET by ken
ken
How strong would it be to just pin it? The pins will definitely strenghten the joint. I would pin them regardless on a project for outside. Why? Cause glue alone is exposed to the elements and will break down. If that happens and it most likely will, the pins are the only thing that will keep the tenons from breaking free of the mortise.
I think FWW has an article in this months (one of the mags, maybe Pop WW) touting a new glue that is for outside. I would use that and pin them anyway. If these are not through tenons, and at that point the exposed gap looks unbearable or is loose enough to move you have another option. Drive a thin wedge into the gap and flush it with a flex saw or a shoulder plane.
I would take the time to build up the too narrow tenon. It's just a matter of cutting the thin stock and glueing. A few minutes per joint with a block or shoulder plane after you let it dry will bring it down to correct size. You can short-cut it with some of the above methods (others will probably have other ideas also) if you are truly in a hurry. The only problems with short-cuts are they often lead to short-comings. "Fix me now, or fix me latter" with latter becoming more of a problem because it's already assembled. Then you are talking a "real PITA. ha..ha..
sarge..jt
Most of the strength in a M&T comes from a good cheek to wall fit and racking resistance comes from shoulder contact area. Nails or pins going crosswise will only keep a loose tenon from withdrawing from it's mortise and sacrifice both. The best quick and dirty solution for 1/16" gaposis would be epoxy since it's the best gap filling adhesive. Another drawback to gaps in outdoor M&T's is that sooner or later they'll catch and hold water and eventually destroy the chair. And if it freezes eventually will be very soon. Building up tenons with veneer isn't really all that time consumming compared to the time and money already invested. Besides if you don't all ready have one it's the perfect excuse to buy a nice LN shoulder plane!
FWIW when I use fasteners on outdoor furniture I use epoxy coated deck screws which are something like 10 times more corrosion resistant than ss screws. Depending on the piece they can be left exposed or countersunk and bunged.John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
Life is tough. It's tougher if you're stupid - John Wayne
I've determined that I hate you all... but only because you're right. :( I'll shim the culprit tenons and make it right. Very educational discussion though, and thanks for it.
Elcoholic, Can you make a recommendation on epoxies? Remember that it's mahogony.
John
I wondered why you posted to me, till I realized I stated that the pins would strengthen the joint which they won't. I was in a hurry as always this morning to get off to work.
I would still pin it for the very reason that if the glue breaks down, the only thing keeping it together at that point would be the pin. If you have teen-agers and have ever seen them flop onto a peice of furniture, you will understand why I would add that factor. You can tell them to not lean back in a chair, but to no avail. I have had to replace two shop chairs already for that reason. It doesn't happen when I'm there, just when I'm gone. They are aware of capital punishment when I'm around, but throw caution to the wind when I'm not with he'll cool down before he finds us. They always seem to spend a lot of time at friends houses right after such an incidence. Probably just co-incidence. ha..ha..
Any excuse to buy a shoulder plane is a good one as it can be used to make short work of long, tedious sanding. Three or four passes and you're done. IMO, the block and shoulder planes are two of the most useful tools in a shop.
Have a good nite, John...
sarge..jt
Sarge,
You give me way too much credit. I was just being lazy and tacked my $0.02 on the end of the thread. It could have been any body. BTW I agree with pinning M&T's especially on the key rail to leg joints in chairs. But that's the suspenders where a good fit and glue are the belt. I also agree on the two planes you mention. I have the small LN shoulder and their adj. low angle block. Both will take micro-thin whispy shavings, even on endgrain. John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
Life is tough. It's tougher if you're stupid - John Wayne
John
It was a great chance to throw out a few tips on teen-agers for those that have children that haven't reached that age. They are like "rollers". The difference is you can get rid of a roller at any time, you have to wait till teen-agers are 18 even though I have been told by friends that isn't necessarily true.
My son is already eyeing my new work-bench. My theory is he's figuring an angle to enclose the bottom to make some kind of super-duty speaker cabinet. Drop that thing in the rear of a vehicle large enough to carry it and cruise the parking lot of the local theatre where his peers "hang out". With the aid of a heavy on bass disc, should be able to pull a Point 6.9 on the Richter scale. Ground shakin', earth rattlin' and pure rebellion against common sense and the authorities that be.
COoooL!!!
Need any apprentices for your shop?? Delta is ready when you are.
Glad I wasn't like that when I was a teen-ager. Pay-back could be h*ll. The rumor he heard at his HS about his dad riding a Harley down the hall during classes is pure fiction. You know how those stories can be blown out of proportion. ha..ha..
Jimmy Dean, ugh.... sarge..jt
Edited 11/5/2003 5:08:13 PM ET by SARGE
It is hard to get them out of the nest. My daughter is 23 & still going to school. My son just turned 21 and isn't big on school or body and fender work so he's going to serve a 4 year "apprenticeship in OD or khaki's" working for George W. He says he wants to be a Ranger. He's physically tough enough & smart enough, but not sure if he's mentally tough enough. It's amazing how much time and effort the recruiter (female, sgt.) has put into this so far. Training program options aren't divulged or discussed until after the physical is passed. He may be getting his physical Friday up in LA. We'll just have to wait and see.John O'Connell - JKO Handcrafted Woodworking
Life is tough. It's tougher if you're stupid - John Wayne
John
"It's hard to get them out of the nest".
That's was I was afraid you would say. :>)
Co-incidentally, I just went to a Ranger re-union in August. Tell your son he must accept the fact that it's a hard program and he will have to learn to channel his will-power to get through. Regardless of how tough you are, mental discipline will play the biggest role if he graduates.
And tell him not to flop down on furniture, or a big, bad-*ss Sargent will grab him by the ear and make him wish he had thought about the consequences before he did it. One of the first things he will learn is if you take care of your equipment, it will take care of you. ha..ha..
Tell him good luck from me...
sarge..jt "P" Co. 75th Ranger Reg. VN
Re: "it's hard to get them out of the nest"
Dick Armey said once in a speech that "... owning your own home is NOT the American Dream. The American Dream is to get your kids to move out of your home, and not move back."
As the victim of a couple of "boomerangs" I know whereof he spoke.
Cheers,
"Enery"
Maybe we could form a world-wide support group. ha..ha..
Regards...
sarge..jt
Ken -
In one of Tage Fride's books on joinery, he illustrates a wedged mortice and tenon joint. It's a little trickie since you have to devine just now big (thick) to make the wedge and saw kerf in the tenon so the joint comes together correctly yet the wedge expands the tenon sufficiently to provide a tight fit.
Just another option you might consider.
Dennis in Bellevue WA
[email protected]
Ken, virtually all of the options offered so far would be superior to just nailing it...But if your resolve weakens as Christmas approaches; DO NOT use galvanized nails. Use stainless.
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