Does anyone out there have this problem? I built a couple of projects for my friend. He now seems to think I should be on call for other projects. Of course, my initial mistake was not charging for my time and labor. Cost of electricity, wear on expensive tools, my limited time, seem not to register with this guy.
My wife says be done with this “user”. However, he does have some good qualities. Any suggestions?
Replies
You could always try to tell him the truth. Tell him what you really feel. If he's a friend, it'll be a difficult moment but you'll stay friends, probably better ones. If he disappears then he probably wasn't a friend in the first place.
David Ring
http://www.touchwood.co.il/?id=1&lang=e
Great answer David.
Tom.
Thanks David,
Finally the real truth has been spoken.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Thanks...great suggestions.
Dennis
Best answer David. This is real intimacy, showing the world what's going on inside. But most of the time it's hard to do because we fear rejection. Any good friend won't reject though.
Best,
Serge
- Learn from yesterday, work today, and enjoy success tomorrow -
http://www.atelierdubricoleur.org
Serge,
Here's a link to a pic of the summer cottage. I've got more and will get some of the inside as there will soon be some major changes made. It needs a ton of work.
Please post any responses over there as I don't want to hijack this discussion.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 7/30/2008 2:31 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Exactly the advice I'd give, David. Losing a 'friend' like that is kinda like losing cancer. In the long run, you're relieved.
Jeff
Just tell him you're too busy working on a Honey-Do list or something else. Or tell him you've got some paying work that has to take priority. Surely, this couldn't be far from the truth.
I assume that you do other woodworking, right? You don't just sit around waiting for this guy to call. You've either got work to do for your own family or paying work that takes priority. Anybody can understand that.
You could also say I didn't mind helping you out with a project but supplies cost money. While I won't charge you my premium rate, it would be nice if you offered a few bucks towards a saw blade or sand paper.
Bio
On a side note you also could deliever his pieces at dinner time and invite yourself to stay and eat up all his food several times, and then I'm sure he wouldn't want you back :) Don't forget to drink all his beer too :)
That's a good one!
Thanks,
Dennis
Yeah, I know it is so hard for people to understand your value especially when Walmart devaules everthing made under the son and people just think this stuff magically appears and at no cost. Gas is 4+ dollars a gallon and that isn't to mention all the other high cost in the world right now.
As a friend, he or she should offer to give you something for your troubles and at least give you the oppurtunity to accept or reject. If they don't, I think they move from being a friend to being a client, especially when they want to dictate how the project turns out.
Bio
Dennis D ,
For friends or family any work you do needs to be either full price or free, anything in the middle can leave room for problems .
It's o.k. to work for the friends just set the rules from the get go .
dusty
Listen to your wife. You have to live with her not your friend. She probably sees qualities in him that you don't see.
Listening to one's wife, especially about (potentially so-called) friends, is always good advice. I did that, and ended up with two friends - a mop and a bucket. ;-)
Being honest may be even better advice. A real friend will understand and appreciate honesty, including indications of when their requests step over the line.
I'm still trying to imagine not being busy enough with my own set of projects to honestly be able to tell somebody precisely that - I'm covered up with stuff for myself and my family and I can't get to anything else for several months, if ever.
How 'bout this for a solution - instead of worrying about having a heart-to-heart and "honest" conversation with the 'friend' the OP should just get bloody busy with a very long slate of projects of his own and simply, and legitimately, be too busy to help out.
Nothing screams "impose on me" like a shop full of equipment, rarely used.
Edited 7/30/2008 1:21 pm ET by PanBroil
This is a "no-win" situation as it stands and will be difficult to extricate yourself from without potentially causing hard feelings with your friend or with your wife clobbering you in the middle of the night with a frying pan.
Do what I did a number of years ago, with a friend who didn't drive and who I hauled around for years: I very rarely ever ask anyone for help and one day I needed someone to help set-up posts for pumpjacks. I asked my friend if he could help and he replied he would, but also asked how much I would pay him. End of hauling him around!
Look at what your friend does and come up with some sort of "service" you could ask him to perform for you.
I also see in your post that you said you didn't charge for time/labor. Did you charge him anything at all? If so, then you got a different sort of problem in that he feels it is OK to ask you to do things, because he paid you. At this point, you need to explain that you didn't charge for your time.
Good luck,
T.Z.
Tony, he purchased the lumber.
Your story is very revealing. Guess there are givers and there are takers everywhere.
Thanks, Dennis
However, he does have some good qualities. If they fit your good qualities.. A 'good' friend is very hard to come by!
Make it and tell him he has to take you and you wife out for dinner and he must have his wife there also! You will pay for the parking! And... if a good meal my wife likes I pay for the tip!
I think we all have had this problem at one time or another. It's no fun when people impose on you.
"Cost of electricity, wear on expensive tools, my limited time, seem not to register with this guy."
Over the years I have learned that being honest and short and sweet gets the job done. Especially when someone isn't getting it. A simple but firm "No, thanks." It leaves no room for argument.
"My wife says be done with this "user". "
It sounds like there has been more than building a couple of projects. For you wife to get this opinion. She must be seeing something.
Len
"You cannot antagonize and influence at the same time. " J. S. Knox
My Dad worked in other people's homes for many years, and he offered this advice, "Always charge friends and family double your regular price because they will always ask you to come back again and again for "warranty work."
That is the truth.
Thanks, Dennis
I have to agree with David Ring on this one; being direct and honest is the only way to handle it. Everything else is just avoidance.
Turn it around: if your friend and his/her spouse thought you were trying to take advantage of them, thought you were too dense to "get it", thought you were a mooch . . . . . . wouldn't you want them to be honest with you? It would be your response to their comments that determined (reveals) the depth of the friendship or the value placed thereon by you.
Tell him in a business-like manner and don't use emotionally charged words.
The word "No" is a great option, or sure, but my hourly rate is $X as I can no longer donate the time for your projects as it detracts from my well being or my paying job far too much. My biggest problem has usually been me. As I was building a curved landing for some friends late one saturday evening I was pondering what they might be doing and why the heck did I open my mouth and suggest I would build this? Now, when a topic of building something comes up with them I keep quiet. I have another friend that I dont mind building things for in the least as he is always there to build me silly things in steel, complete electrical wiring or fix motorized machines. If there is a balance, great, otherwise you are getting used or he has no clue how much time it takes to build whatever you have been building.
Brad
I simply don't have time as it belongs to my wife in the shop... therefore Sir David Ring of the Israeli Rings advice is exactly how I approach it. And that seems to be about every other day. :>)
Sarge..
Sarge,
I know you'll appreciate this. People would ask my dad to help them all the time. He (like I) was raised to always try to help. After some time, he would always ask for help from the same people that asked him. Usually something that required muscle. Like shoveling two or three yards of compost or clearing a section of the yard. Slowly but surely the requests stopped.
It's funny how owning tools, a truck or having the ability to fix/make something becomes public domain.
I try to without much success follow the old adage. Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day. Teach a man to fish and he'll never go hungry. Len
"You cannot antagonize and influence at the same time. " J. S. Knox
Absolutely correct as I have the truck also. Keeping a low profile doesn't work.. they will seek you out and find you when they need something but seem to always have other commitments when you need them. :>)
Regards...
Sarge..
If you're feeling used there is something wrong. I enjoy building things for friends, but I have no problem saying no.
My solution is to quantify my sacrifice in time for the person who asks for something to be done.
Example: My sister-in-law asked for something to be made and offered to buy the materials. I estimated it would take about 30 hours to complete so i suggested we could work out a trade in for time. She said sure and i suggested in trade she could mow our lawn once a week for the summer and I would build her what she wanted. It was a fair trade of time but she balked at the idea. We have a good relationship so she took it well and it quickly illustrated that time is valuable.
Funny, she hasn't asked me to make anything since...
mike
Clever tactic with the lawn mowing.
I think some folks would think this was an unfair trade, however as in their mind they are merely asking you to do something you like to do anyway, as opposed to actual work like lawn mowing. I don' think they appreciate that working on your own project as you like is very different from having to do another person's project to their specifications.
Samson,
I think you may have touched on something that might have slipped past some of us, i.e. woodworking to many of us is fun and not really work as we perceive work. Maybe that may have something to do with folks reluctance to charge friends/family for fun we are asked to do from time to time.
I still feel ring hit the nail on the head. If a friend then all will be understood.
I've also felt all these years that when work stops being fun then it's time I found something else to do.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 7/31/2008 2:13 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Bob, at least for me, woodworking is fun when I can follow my own muse, my own pace, my own design on the fly ideas, my own schedule (or lack there of), etc. An enjoyable hobby can seem an awful lot like work when you have to build something to someone elses specs and on someone else's schedule etc. Don't get me wrong, I like nothing better than building something a loved one wants or needs - as I see fit. That's quite different from a neighbor saying: "You've got tools, would you build my kid a bookcase this weekend; I'll pay you for the cost of the particleboard." ;-)
Samson,
Absa-perfect-lutely said.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Excellent advice, Ryan
Dennis
Amen..Amen, Samson. You hit the nail on the head. My experience with building for friends as they "need by this date" and even try to change the plan in mid-construction. Most non-woodworkers have no clue as to what is involved in doing decent work.
Dennis
You did make a mistake in not charging him for time and labor. In a way you've now set a precedent, but you should change that by telling him that you've made a decision to only work on personal projects or on commissions. No more pro bono stuff. Just remember that you do not owe anyone any explanations or excuses. If he is a true friend, he will understand. If he doesn't understand, you're being used. Send him a bill. Only kidding on that last sentence. :^)
Good luck. You probably don't want to end up being the "town woodworker" who always works for free. You'll have no time for your own projects.
Edited 7/31/2008 3:06 pm ET by Ryan1
Dennis,
I did some work for family a while back. I was paid for the work whether I wanted to be paid or not. My family doesn't take advantage of my shop or skills... Anyways.. Now when a friend wants free work, I tell that I could never work for less than what my family pays me. To work for free for a friend, and charge my family for work would be an insult to my family. That's something I just won't do.
Your family obviously "gets it" and has good values. I don't mind working for friends to an extent but at some point your good nature can be taken advantage of.
Dennis
Dennis,
You're right my family "gets it". My Brother in Law in a Plumber. I pay him what ever he bills me. I know he won't charge me unfairly, and he does great work. He and everyone else pays me for my work. Family gets a good discount. Others need to understand that even though woodwork is my 2nd job, and a bit of a hobby it does effect how my bills are paid. So I can work for free, or feed my family. I can't afford to give my time, and the use of thousands of $$ of workshop for free. It's the same for a friend who needs a chair re-glued as it is for someone who wants me to build an IKEA piece for half the price.
I don't want to be hard nosed about it. I just can't afford to do it any other way.
Yeah I hate to think how often I have had people I know (not sure I would call them friends) say something like Could you build X for me? Then they don't even think they should pay what the wood cost much less for the use of a tool. (and dont dream of getting paid for your time) They seam to think that if a factory can turn out pressed board junk for a couple hundred bucks that you should be able (as their friend) to turn out solid wood furniture even cheaper! Then you tell them how much the wood cost and how long it would take to make and what the cost of things like saw blades go for and they look at you like you are trying to rob them blind.
Had a "friend of a friend" ask about getting a couple of simple cherry end tables like I build for myself. I priced them out pretty cheep (I was getting cherry at the time for about $2 a board foot) and he said they were "way to expensive" he was thinking of a price that would have not even covered the cost of the wood (at $2 a BF). A year or so latter he shows me a photo of a bedroom set he picked up from a wood worker at a local art fair. It was made from (I kid you not) 2x stock (like thing 2x10s and 2x12) and it cost him something north of 12,000 for the stuff. It seams to me that if you ask a couple hundred for something peaple look at you like you should be Ikea cheep (and much better material of course) but if you price it sky high they figure they you must be worth it.
One reason why I do not do any work for pay unless it is someone I don't know. If I know them (so called friends) I will not work for them. What little money to be had is not worth the pain in the butt. Add in that if anything goes "wrong" you are going to hear about it for ever. I know someone that still brings up something going wrong with a car after it was in a dealership 40+ years ago (and the car was in for a tune up and latter the muffler fell off of a 1960 something car, not related at all back then a muffler was only good for a couple years) but still he hears about it once a year or so! Thus the reason I do not do work for friends or family. (I will have to live with them no matter what happens) I may build them something but I do not charge for it. To much grief.
Doug Meyer
Very true, Doug.
Dennis:
There are some jobs that are inherently uneconomic for a professional. For example, my neighbor replaced the wall oven necessitating a new drawer front below to cover an ugly gap of about 4". She went to the cabinet shop that made the kitchen (also the former owner of the house) and they couldn't help as they outsource panels. Similarly, their child broke a bed rail rendering a pull out bunk bed useless.
These small, one-off jobs take more time than they are worth to any professional so many people are stuck or resort to throwing the bed out.
I made a new drawer front and bed rail and charged them $200 (about half what it would have been worth in terms of time). They gave me $250. A fair exchange because I wanted to help out; but not a way to make a living!
Hastings
- Learn from yesterday, work today, and enjoy success tomorrow -
http://www.atelierdubricoleur.org
The easiest way out of it is simply tell him that you have no more time. Or that you are currently busy. I can't believe that you did something for him and that he actually did not respond with any type of monetary gesture. Heck even if I do easy things or favors for my buddies they are always trying to press money into my hands.
Some great thoughts here, and great ideas to use when my sisters-in-law ask me about building something for them. I always hear: "That shouldn't take you very long......." HA!
And to echo and add to what David Ring said: If he was a friend, he wouldn't have asked you in the first place without offering something in return...............
And, if he were REALLY your friend, you wouldn't mind.........
Rich
And to echo and add to what David Ring said: If he was a friend, he wouldn't have asked you in the first place without offering something in return...............
If he was a friend, he wouldn't have asked you in the first place without offering something in return...
NOT quite true... Some you do for for nothing.. Some never return anything..
A REAL friend knows when he/she asked way too much! But then again you should KNOW you Real friends faults and if she/he is serious!
And then sometimes you have bite the bullet... And get on the phone... And say.. I'm going to the wood store and bring your credid card!! I'll help you pick out the PERFECT WOOD! I'll pick you you up outside your house... I'll honk as usual!
And to echo and add to what David Ring said: If he was a friend, he wouldn't have asked you in the first place without offering something in return...............If he was a friend, he wouldn't have asked you in the first place without offering something in return...NOT quite true... Some you do for for nothing.. Some never return anything..<I said he would offer, not that you'd accept anything..........>A REAL friend knows when he/she asked way too much! But then again you should KNOW you Real friends faults and if she/he is serious!And then sometimes you have bite the bullet... And get on the phone... And say.. I'm going to the wood store and bring your credid card!! I'll help you pick out the PERFECT WOOD! I'll pick you you up outside your house... I'll honk as usual!
Email this Message
And I'd reply back what I said I feel true. But you never know...
Thinking back on what I posted.. A real friend WILL ask you all sorts of stupid things and favors! A true friend does NOT get upset if you tell him/her to (big F word) OFF!
He/She may even get you a sixpack for botherin' ya!
Will , I think you got it with that said .
After all when we need something and our friend does it , why wouldn't we call them ? A builder BIL of mine got mad at a mutual pal for only calling him when he needs work . He didn't want it for free. A fellow I know is a jeweler and few years ago the youth group he worked with needed wood plaques , I let them pay for the wood , but made the plaques free of labor charge . About a year ago my reading glass frame solder broke and the eye glass folks said go to the jeweler , he charged me $20 and they broke again a few weeks later , stupid me .
dusty
And I would say that most folks use the word "friend" quite differently than I do. I don't have too many friends, but a lot of acquaintances...............:)I guess what we mean is that real friends shouldn't and don't feel the need to BE compensated, but go out of their way to compensate. And if it doesn't work out penny for penny, so what? Friends don't count, either. Right?Rich (yeah, we're on the same page) in VA
Dennis..Id try this on him. Sit down with him and pop a brewski or 2 ( Martini?) . Bring up the subject of what he does for a living ( maybe you dont do wood working for a living but someone thinks your stuff is worthy of monatary compensation). Lets say hes an accountant. Id then ask him if hed do my taxes for a fraction of what someone else would pay him. He, being a professional at what he does would say "no" to which Id then say that same is true for me.
When you have a complete shop and the ability to fix and make things people will ask you for favors. Im not adverse to favors because some day I might need one in return. If your wife sees this guy as a user maybe he is just that....... a User.
Wicked Decent Woodworks
(oldest woodworking shop in NH)
Rochester NH
" If the women dont find you handsome, they should at least find you handy........yessa!"
All the heart-to-heart "true friend" stuff is overly dramatic. Sounds like a Tiger Beat magazine article. Let's turn down the volume switch on the treacly machine.
Next time he asks, just be too busy working on your own stuff or stuff for paying clients. You can't get back the time you've already spent.
Edited 8/3/2008 7:51 am ET by PanBroil
You know I sometimes wonder if part of the problem is peaple have no idea what they are asking for. I do not think your average non hobbiest knows how much work some of this is. They just think that if someone is making a large profit on something then thier friend how is good at this should be able to do it for less NO? Of course they are wrong but peaple often are.
Doug
I had the same problem - I built a cherry console table for my wife's good friend and charged her only for materials. She first had the nerve to flinch when I told her how much it would cost to purchase the wood and that I wouldn't even charge for labor. Now, she keeps bugging me for a matching table at the same price! Some people don't understand what a favor is.
I appreciate the comments and suggestions. I had no idea that so many fellow woodworkers experience the same pressures from their friends and relatives.
Dennis
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled