I’m working on a hard maple bathroom vanity and am ready to make two inset frame-and-panel doors for it—my first such doors. I’ll be using cope-and-stick router bits for the frames and have a 4/4 board of bird’s-eye maple for the panels.
The panels will be flat, not raised. How thick should they should be? Assuming the groove in the frame is a quarter-inch thick and the frame stock is hair under 7/8 of an inch thick, I was going to thickness the panels to 5/8″. Is this too thick/heavy? (The panels will measure roughly 15″ x 7.5″.) Should the panels be flush with the back of the frame or recessed a bit? Is that simply a matter of taste?
My guess is that, if the panels are to be flush with the back side of the frames, their thickness should be a quarter inch (the thickness of the groove) plus the thickness between the bottom of the groove and the back edge of the frame; if I want them recessed a bit in the back, they should be shade thinner than that sum. Is that correct?
Finally, a number of articles contend that a cope and stick joint needs to be reinforced either with a loose tenon or a peg to be sound. Can I get by without that reinforcement?
Norman
Edited 7/22/2008 1:26 pm ET by nboucher
Replies
Thickness of the panels is the designers choice. I prefer to make the panels last - and simply fit them to the groove... it doesn't work as well the other way around. Birdseye maple can be difficult to machine... so take your time.
Cope and Stick makes a strong joint for cabinet doors. With inset doors, I prefer to make the door 1/32nd" to 16th" larger than the opening - and hand plane the doors to fit.
Good luck and be sure to post pics... it sounds like a very nice project!
Thanks. The frames (QS hard maple) are pretty much milled and I'll machine and fit them together before tackling the panels. I'll be working the bird's-eye with hand planes only: an LN scrub plane to get it close and then my complement of old Stanleys (outfitted with new LN blades) to finish it off very carefully. This will be my first experience with bird's-eye, so I'll be letting the board teach me what not to do . . .
Edited 7/22/2008 3:16 pm ET by nboucher
Hi Norman ,
The panel will have to be relieved if not raised if you leave it thicker than the groove .
You can run 1/4" panels with great results .
Your math sounds good but how will the panel look back there ?
dusty
Dusty, will a rabbet along the back edge of the panel do it? I can thickness the panels down closer to a quarter inch, but I hate to see all that bird's eye end up as shavings! If I had a bandsaw I'd consider resawing the board, but, alas, I have none.Norman
A rabbet will do, just make sure to allow enough room for wood movement - Tools permitting, a raised panel would look cleaner - IMHO.
I've worked with Birdseye maple a few times and I've never had any luck hand planing. I even have a LN#4 bronze smoother with a standard and high angle frog. It kept pulling out the eyes (!#$%^!). Now, I thickness with my Performax 16/32 and use a scraper. Good luck.
Thanks for the cautionary note. Should be interesting . . .BTW, I opted for no raised panels because the simpler, cleaner look of the flat panels seem better suited to the design I've worked out. The house is a contemporary and the raised panel looked a bit too traditional to my eye.
Edited 7/22/2008 4:09 pm ET by nboucher
Now I'm wondering about the wisdom of planing 4/4 bird's-eye maple to a quarter-inch panel. I don't have a bandsaw, but can probably get access to one to resaw the board. Does anyone have any experience resawing bird's-eye? What kinds of things should I watch out for?Thanks,
Norman
Just to clarify, the raised panel should be faced to the inside of the cabinet. This is a traditional approach to creating a flat-panel door (outside face), while dressing up the rabbet (inside face).
Similar to comparing a hb dovetail drawer vs. any other type of drawer construction. It all depends on individual taste and time.
Does a high-angle frog refer to a 50-degree cutting angle? If that isn't enough of an angle, try putting a back bevel on the blade. I haven't tried a 50-degree angle on birdseye, but I've had great success with an effective cutting angle of 72-degrees (a 50-degree blade in the 12-degree bed of a low-angle jack).Chris @ http://www.flairwoodwork.spaces.live.com
- Success is not the key to happines. Happiness is the key to success. If you love what you are doing, you will be successful. - Albert Schweitzer
How would you keep the panel in the rabbet ?
I'm not convinced your door frame idea is worked out just right .
Did you say a stile and rail router set ? What detail ?
dusty
Dusty, it's a Whiteside router set with a simple round-over. I don't know if you can view the SketchUp file, but it's a simple round-over detail with a flat panel. I'd have a quarter-inch thick tongue to keep the panel in the frame's groove, and a rabbet behind it to allow the remaining panel thickness to sit against the thickness of the frame between the groove and back edge. Am I explaining this clearly enough?Thanks,
Norman
Have you considered the mouting hardware? If the doors are inset into a frameless carcasses it is easy, but if you have face frames and want hidden hinges I would take a gander at some catalogs before finalizing the design. How wide are your rails and stiles? I would only worry about reinforcing the joints if the rails and stiles were really narrow, which I doubt they are, otherwise the glue area should be sufficient.
I totally agree with Tban about the sizing. The last cabinet I tried a 1/16" under all around, and I am not sure when I will get over that.
Please do not waste all the Birdseye. I would rabbet as Old Dusty suggested.
Brad
Brad, the doors will be mounted into a 7/8" thick face frame using extruded-brass butt hinges. The stiles and top rails are 1.5", and the bottom rails are 2". Because the doors are relatively small, I think the cope -and-stick joints should be okay. I'm trying to visualize how the thicker panels will look flush in the back of the doors. Here's a rough SketchUp file of the design. Because this vanity is the primary make-up-applying station in my household, I've designed two shallow drawers up top for nail polish, etc., two moderately sized drawers for brushes, etc., in the middle, and two deep drawers on the bottom in which I'll build removeable baffles for cans of hair spray, etc. It's called designing furniture for teen-aged girls.
Edited 7/22/2008 5:24 pm ET by nboucher
Ahh, butt hinges. All is fine. The only reason I mentioned that is a couple projects back I didnt think about all the hardware and was not pleased when I finally did.
I understand why you are relucant to rabbet the back. I got the impression the rails and stiles were square (mission style) since you are raising the panels, but now I see. I take it that your router set is a stacked set that does not allow you to remove any segments of the profile. Some sets allow you to remove some of the cutters to allow you to produce a variety of profiles (take a look at some of the freud sets). If you can remove one of the profile cutters from your set you dont really need to profile the back do you? Then you could simply rabbet the panel.
Brad
edit:
I see you have a whiteside set. You should have no problem with the back of the panel. A simple rabbet should work.
Edited 7/22/2008 6:12 pm ET by brad805
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