hi
I posted a few weeks ago about honing plane blades and got excellent feedback. I decided to follow instructions and a) flatten back, b) square edge, c) grind primary bevel, and d) hone micro bevel.
I rec’d a Bailey #5 1/2 from ebay and started the flattening the back process. I am using a plate glass from Lee Valley and I have 60 and 80 sandpaper glued on each side. I have been at it for at least 3 hours and this is a major job. Mind you the blade is wide. I still have a little spot at each extremity that is not like a mirror. Keep changing the paper and though I am progressing I am finding this a very long and boring job.
Any advice
Thanks
Roger
Replies
Roger,
You only need to lap about 1/2 inch back from the end the iron, 1 inch at the most. Some workers polish much less than that. Are you polishing the whole iron?
Rich
Hi Rich
No I am doing only about 3/4 of an inch
Roger
Roger,If you are only lapping 3/4" it should take no more than about 20 minutes to go from 80 grit up through each grade and finish at 2000.I believe the iron you have must have deep valleys at the places that you see unpolished. You have probably reached a point of diminishing returns with that piece of tool steel, unless you take it to a machine shop and have it milled truly flat before you try lapping again.If the majority of the width of the iron close to the ground edge is flat, go ahead and use the iron.Rich
I screw my blades down to a block of wood then pass the end of the blade back and forth under my overhead sander until flat then finish with my daimond laps. Takes all the blood, toil, sweat, and tears out of the job!
PlaneWood by Mike_in_Katy (maker of fine sawdust!)
PlaneWood
If your edge is square you can simply use David Charlesworth's ruler trick. Polish your bevel as you normally would and then lay a 6" long stainless ruler along 1 edge of your finest polishing medium, sandpaper waterstones oilstones whatever. Lay the flat side of the blade on the ruler which is creating about a 1* micro bevel on the flat side and has no noticeable effect, and polish only about a 1/64" band of micro polish. A brand new plane blade with a square edge can be fully tuned and ready for use in about 2 minutes using this method. If you really want to see some excellent sharpening techniques go the the Lie-Nielsen website and purchase either David Charlesworths sharpening techniques or Rob Cosmans sharpening techniques.
Rog,
A few things I've seen that have resulted in less than desirable results:
Have you used an accurate straight edge to verify that the glass is truly flat, both with and without the sandpaper affixed? The plane blade itself?
Are you holding the plane blade absolutely flat while sanding the back?
Are you using a grit that's aggressive enough to remove metal quickly before proceeding to a finer grit?
Are you using a brush, or a vacuum cleaner equipped with a brush attachment, to clean the sandpaper frequently while sanding?
Good luck,
-Jazzdogg-
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.
Thanks for the tips. Just tried to hone the back of another blade. Veritas 4 1/2.. No problem with this one. So that proves that it is the blade that is out a bit. I bought this Stanley 5 1/2 on ebay and it came all the way from South Africa.
I have cut back to about 1/2 inch and will keep at it. That or get a new Hock blade.
Roger
I've adopted a gradual approach for my blades. Straight outa the box, they were good but not stellar. Each had some time on 800, 1500 and 4000 grit stones to get them most of the way there. Ever since, they get a wee tickle on the 12000 grit stone whenever I need to re-hone the buisness end. Net result is they're gradually improving over time.
Mike Wallace
Stay safe....Have fun
ruler trick 2 or 3 minutes easy
Blades can be out quite a bit. If a previous owner has beveled the back, then you can expect a lot more work. The process is very time consuming, when you step up in grit it takes longer for each finer grade to erase the previous coarser marks. At times you have to flatten most of the end before you are actually at the tip. I don't know any quick way to flatten and polish the back of a blade. the bevels can be ground but the back needs lapping. Good steel doesn't cut very fast, the finer you try to polish, the more elbow grease it takes because you are working the entire surface.
I just did a Stanley #65 two nights ago, the blade had a back bevel. I started with 100 paper, went to 220 paper, blue diamond, red diamond stones and finished with 1000 water stone and a leather strop. It took me hours and my fingers were worn out. The final result was worth the effort and I won't have to go through it again. I'm not a big fan of micro-bevels unless it is on a smoother. Eventually, they have to be straightened out or reground and I don't have a Tormek, yet. Micro-bevels need very fine stones, 6000 and finer, you can barely see them. Getting the back of straight blades flat will significantly improve the level of sharpness you can attain. Your, safe handling, has to go up a notch too, any contact is going to draw blood.
Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
The only way to attain a sharp edge is to have 2 polished edges coming together. This is why you need to flatten the back, so you can advance to finer grits that are polishing and not flattening. When you put a back bevel on a blade it is because it erases the need to polish the back wether it is 1/2" or the whole thing. A 1* micro bevel on the back is created on your finest sharpening medium and has therefore made the back completely polished. A micro bevel on the front, or secondary bevel as it is called, is used to save time in sharpening and therefore saves the metal of the blade and saves the sharpening medium. If someone claims that it eventually has to be ground back on a grinder, they would surely realize that at this point it would be as though there where no micro bevel. A new blade complete with coarse grinding marks can be sharpened through 8000 grit, both sides of the blade, in about 3 or 4 minutes using the ruler trick. Check Fine Woodworking volume 172.
I had a chance to visit Lie Nielsen's this summer. The gentleman in the showroom was sharpening a blade for a customer. He used a secondary bevel on the front that was very fine, much less than 1/64". He used an 8000 stone. No back micro bevel.Their showroom is a shop with a few benches and walls lined with their products. You just take down any tool you want and try it out. They provide some scrap wood. You get a first hand feel for how they think the tool should work. A hands on benchmark. In comparison, I like my blades just as well. Flat backs and primary bevel only. I still think it's hard to beat a single beveled blade. Once established, 12 - 15 passes on the 1000 will completely renew the edge. I'm still skeptical of the ruler trick but may give it a try if I ever get a finer stone.Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
I don't understand what you're saying Hammer. If there's some kind of micro-bevel on the back of the blade you want to get rid of, just whack it off by grinding the honing or primary bevel on the other side. That gets rid of it in a few minutes. I can't imagine anyone flattening the back to remove a microbevel on that face if that's what you're saying. For one thing doing that makes the blade thinner.
There's generally far too much of a song and dance made about the flatness of the back of blades. People get all excited about how bright and shiny the bevels and back need to be-- good enough to see in to shave with after working their way through the grits to 12,000 or whatever.
It's all mostly just cobblers. The back flattened to about 6mm to 12mm up from the cutting edge using the coarse side of a flat oilstone is plenty smooth enough-- maybe 240 or 320 grit wet and dry paper on glass is about the equivalent of that. The rest of the job is taken care of in the normal sharpening process-- I rarely use anything finer than an 800 grit ceramic stone for sharpening. It takes about two or three minutes, which includes getting the stone out of its pond, ha, ha. Slainte.RJFurniture
Richard,Then you lap the back (face) of the iron only to about 320 grit? At what "grit" do you achieve the final cutting bevel?Rich
Rich, as I said earlier, I mostly do final sharpening with my 800 grit ceramic stone. I follow this up by flipping the iron backwards and forwards on the palm of the hand and get back to work.
If I'm feeling especially precious and in a nit picking tea drinking pinkie pointing mode I'll move onto a medium grit ceramic stone I've got from Spyderco after the 800 grit stone. It's the one that comes in a black box, and I don't know how fine the grit is supposed to be. Again, once I've done sharpening I do a bit of blade flipping on the palm of the hand to finish.
I've never understood the palaver people make of getting the blasted metal mirror bright and achieving the perfect cutting edge, checking it with magnifying glasses and microscopes under bright light. Who's got the time for that kind of nonsense? The first whack with the blade into wood and that perfectly honed edge is on the way back to blunt anyway so what's the point of all that tedious fiddling and faffing?
I like sharpening to be painless and swift. Sometimes a smoothing plane needs sharpened four or five times an hour with heavy use and difficult grain, and I don't like to spend more than 7- 8 minutes per hour doing it. I'm a furniture maker, not a tool sharpening technician for a micro-surgery operating theatre, ha, ha. Slainte.RJFurniture
Just checking.I shave just a couple times a week to keep my beard ready for my sharpening needs. Just a few times up and back on that stubble and my plane irons and chisels are ready to go.Sometimes on mornings after I've had a few too many brews, I'm not at my best and I get the honing angles all messed up. But other than that, I keep those tools cutting.I agree, I can't abide all the preoccupation with 4000 grit and 8000 grit water stones, honing guides and the like. I once got curious to see what lapping a plane iron would be like on an 8000 stone. D*mn iron stuck to the wet stone like it was glued to it. Couldn't move it back and forth at all! Besides I wouldn't want a mirror finish on my iron. I might see my reflection and scare myself!Keep up the good work!Rich
Rich14,
I was going to send this helpful tip to FWW...I'm sure they would adopt this for their shipping cover and I would have gotten some free tools...but I'll share it with you and others because I can see your concern with sharp tools.
Using the plam of my hand for final honing worked for a while but with the constant wringing of my hands and fretting over sharpness...my hand surface has gotten a bit rough.
The best way to see your face in the bevel and back of a plane iron is to drop your drawers and apply a bit of rouge to one cheek....a couple of wacks of the blade on your backside will do the trick....and you'll see your face.
Please don't try this with long boards...walking with your pants around your ankles can be dangerous. Merry Christmas
"apply a bit of rouge to one cheek"Oh, THAT's what I was doing wrong. I was using the GREEN stropping compound. And I wasn't applying to a cheek, either. I was putting in on . . .In all fairness to authors like Leonard Lee who write books on sharpening and who show us how to prepare our tool steel surfaces better than commercial razor blades, since I have been preparing my tools in a "high tech" way, I have gotten consistently better results and it doesn't take very long, either.I have never spent more than 20 minutes on the face of any new plane iron taking it from 100 grit up through 2000, and that's the last time I ever have to polish that surface. I can pop an iron or chisel into my 30 year-old Eclipse honing guide and rehone the microbevel on 2000 grit in well under a minute and I'm back to work. I find I need to do this 3-4 times a day when I'm working a lot with a particular tool.I grind my tools on a 4x36 bench model belt sander with a 120 grit belt and a number of wooden jigs I have built that have various preset grinding angles and hone at 2000. That's it. The jigs just sit over the horizontal sander bed. It takes about 2 seconds to remove one jig and drop a different one on. The irons and chisels lie completely and easily supported their entire length and width in the jigs. The resulting grinding angles are repeatable and accurate every time. The belts last for freaking-ever. No need to "true" a grinding wheel with a diamond dresser. No water baths. No fighting with maddeningly inaccurate holding devices on a grinder.Drop a jig on the sander. Put the blade in the jig,. No hold downs, just slight finger pressure. Grind. A blind man could do it. Hone. Maybe 5 mintues total. Usually less. Back to work.Rich
I'd be interested to see pictures of your jigs.
Mark,We're leaving tonight for San Diego to spend Christmas at my mother's home. No computer there. Be back next week and I'll get some images up.I JUST finished 4 wooden body planes (Koa & maple, lignum vitae soles) for Christmas gifts (*whew*). I'll take some digital pictures tonight before I go and get them up next week also.Rich
me too as I have an old belt sander that sounds like it would be perfect!
All:
Thanks for all the advice. I realize that the stuff we read about sharpening is a bit far fetched. I have noticed that ever since I have started buying hand planes and jig and devices to sharpen...I haven't produced anything but a lot of shavings.
That said I am trying to flatten the back of this *&?( plane blade. I think it is important that all the machining marks are removed and that the back is smooth. Right now I am far from debating whether I should smooth the back to 2000 or 8000...I am working with a 60 grit sandpaper and still have this little 1/4 inch area in the top right hand corner that still has the machining marks.
I was wondering if it would be a good idea to clamp a file to a flat surface and use that to flatten the back... What do you think.
Twas the night before X-mas and Roger was still trying to flatten the back of his plane blade.
Roger
Definitely would not use a file. Way too uneven. You need to get it flat.
If you have a belt sander with a flat platten, turn it on its back, lower the speed, and flatten the back of the plane blade that way. Once you get it flat, even with a coarse grit, getting it to a polish takes maybe five more minutes.
Sgian,
I agree with your approach to sharpening. I've heard stories about the Japanese temple builders who sharpen their plane, take a shaving, then stop to resharpen. I figured they had to be getting paid by the hour!!
By the way, I'm unfamiliar with "faffing" ...can you explain your faffing technique, so I can try it out in my shop?
Cheers,
Ray
Ray, 'faffing' means the art of looking busy whilst doing almost nothing useful. faffing around on forums counts too, ha, ha-- ha, ha, ha. Slainte.RJFurniture
Sgian,
Aw, shucks, I've been faffing for YEARS!
In "With Hammer In Hand, one of the Dominy craftsmen had written a list of things he liked and things he didn't. One of the things he did not care for was a workman who sat down to sharpen his chisel, and at the same time, began a long story. Another was a woman who "showed too much of her ancles"...I have the feeling that ol' Nathaniel wasn't exactly the life of the parrty.
I enjoyed your story of the first day in the shop. My experience with the grand old man in my beginning days was somewhat more gentle. The old codger offered to teach me to sharpen my spokeshave, because as he told me, "You won't learn any younger."
Regards,
Ray
Richard,
You are probably due to repost the epic story of your first day as an apprentice. I'm sure that there is a whole new collection of Knotheads that need to hear that story.
I still contend that is the best message ever left on this board.
Cheers,
Kyle
I guess you mean this one, Kyle? Slainte.
A Lesson in Sharpening.
A perennial subject in woodworking magazines is that of sharpening techniques. No other furniture making topic seems to generate so many words, resulting in the publication of innumerable articles detailing ‘infallible’ or ‘sure fire’ methods of doing the job.
Naturally, the subject is of great interest because blunt tools aren't much use. The opening preamble to many of these articles often cause a wry smile for they bring back memories of my initiation into the 'dark' art. Many authors make valid points about those that struggle at it, and possess a workshop full of dull tools. Conversely, it is often said that those that can do the job tend to be fanatical about grits, slurries and bevel angles. My experience is that there are really only two types of people when it comes to sharpening.
1. Those that can’t.
2. Those that can.
In the first group, those that can't, you'll sometimes see every sharpening system known to man arrayed around their workshop gathering dust. They have oilstones, water stones, ceramic stones, diamond stones, guides, dods of sandpaper, jigs, etc.. Usually, every hand tool they own is chipped, dull and mostly useless.
In the second group, those that can, I haven’t observed much fanaticism about slurries, grits and bevel angles. In all the workshops I’ve worked in the only concern is to get the job done. It’s a case of, "Plane’s blunt, better sharpen it." Dig out the stone, sharpen the blade, shove it back in the plane, and get on with it. The equipment is minimal. A grinder, a stone and lubricant, along with a few slips for gouges and the like.
Going back to the early seventies when I trained, learning how to sharpen tools was undertaken within the first few days. I don’t now precisely recall the order of my instruction, but it went something like this. I was handed a plane by the cabinetmaker I was assigned to and told, "Git that piece o’ wood square." I didn’t know why, but I’d done a bit of woodworking at school, so I had a vague idea what to do. I fooled around with that lump of wood for twenty or thirty minutes, and got it something like. All this under the watchful eye of the crusty old guy and his ever present roll-up hanging out of the corner of his mouth.
"Okay, I’ve done that." I said, "Now what do you want me to do?"
I was told to hang about for a minute whilst he picked up his square and straight edge and proceeded to scrutinise my handiwork, followed by a non-committal grunt and some desultory foot sweeping of the plentiful shavings on the floor. (The wood was probably only about seventy five per cent of its original volume!)
"Now sonny, let’s do the next job," he announced. "Pull that jack plane yuh’v bin usin’ apairt and let’s have a look at the iron." I did.
"Hold the iron up so’s yuh can see the cuttin' edge," he instructed. (He was a Scot.) Again I did as I was told.
"Now, can yuh see it? Can yuh see the ‘line o’ light’ at the shairp end there?" he wheezed, as he tapped off a line of ash onto the floor and stood on it. He was referring to the shiny reflection visible when cutting edges are dull.
"Aye," I said, after a little eye narrowing, and other pretence of intelligence.
"How shairp does it look to yoo boy?" he enquired.
I thought about this for a moment or two, seeking the right response to my tormentor, for I hadn't really got a clue what he was talking about, and finally replied rather hopefully and a bit brightly, "Pretty shairp, I’d say."
He laughed out loud, and hacked a bit. "Dinnae be the daft bloody laddie with me son. If yuh can see it, it’s blunt. I could ride that bloody iron bare-ersed to London and back and no cut ma’sel’. Git o’er here an’ I’ll show yuh something."
You can probably guess. Out came the oilstone from his toolbox, and quick as a flash the iron was whisking up and down the stone, flipped over, the wire edge removed, and finally stropped backwards and forwards on the palm of the hand. You could shave with it. I know, because he demonstrated how sharp it was by slicing a few hairs off his forearm. On went the cap iron and the lot was popped back in the plane, followed by a bit of squinting along the sole from the front whilst the lever and knob were fiddled with and that was it. He took a few shavings off a piece of wood and it went back in his toolbox. It took, oh,…......a few minutes.
"Now son, that’s a shairp plane. It’s nae bloody use to me blunt. Yuh may as well sling a soddin’ blunt yin in the bucket fur'all the use it is to me." He explained with great refinement. "I’ve aboot ten mair o’ them in that box, an’ they’re all blunt. I know they are, because ah’ve bin savin ‘em for yuh. There’s a bunch a chisels too. Let’s get yuh started."
For what felt like forever I sharpened his tools for the one and only time under his rheumy eyed and critical stare, and things gradually got better. After a while he stopped telling me what a "completely daft stupit wee bastit, " I was, and a bit later he started offering grudging approval. I had to sharpen some tools more than once because he kept on using and dulling them. When I’d done the lot we stopped and surveyed the days work.
"Aye, no too bad fer a daft laddie's fust effort," he commented darkly, sucking hard on his smoke, "I think ye’ve goat whit it takes. Time will tell sonnie. Remember, ye’ll never be a bliddy cabinetmaker if yuh cannae even shairpen yer feckin’ tools. Lesson over. Dinnae ferget it!"
I haven't.
RJFurniture
Edited 12/20/2004 1:57 pm ET by Sgian Dubh
Well, I can't vouch for your edge tools, but I'd say you were a pretty good dielectition!
Aye; that would be the one! Thanks.
Kyle
Slainte, I was talking about a back that was beyond a small micro bevel. This particular blade would need a good 3/16" ground off the length but very little in thickness. A bit off both gave me what I like, a flat back. Back bevel or not, if one wants to work the back flat to 800 or so on an old blade, it may take some work the first time. Funny story about the apprentice, I can see the dished out oil stones now. I've hollowed out a couple myself. You know us Yanks, if we can tweak a little extra performance out of something, that's good. If we can shine it up too, even better. You won't have to dock my pay for time sharpening, I'll do it on my own time. I kind of like it.Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
You are going to look silly trying to squirm out of posting number 13's comments.
I don't see a reason for squirming, Peter36, even if my response wasn't clear to everyone. I shared some personal experience based on quite a few plane restorations. Some take a lot more work than others, especially by hand. The more polished you make the back, the more evident areas that aren't polishing become. I know exactly what rog is experiencing. You think you have a flat back with the coarse grits until the finer grits prove you wrong. I think it's worth the initial work. Subsequent sharpening's are pretty easy and the edge is durable and super sharp.Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
You are taking way to long to do your work.
As Sqian Dubh has said, do a reasonable job and get on with it.
I don't know what type of finish you expect from your #5-1/2 but ...
Get the iron reasonably sharp, plane to imporve the surface, get the iron a bit sharper, plane to a better surface. Repeat until you are happy with th the finish.
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