Hello Everyone,
I’m a beginner with some advanced training in futility. I have successfully flattened the sole of a new/modern Stanley/Bailey #4 a few years ago but have been having great difficulty with my used Bailey #5. I have a piece of glass that’s about 3/8″ thick and flat wthin about .001″ along its 20″ length and 8 inch width. I affixed 100 grit sandpaper to it with spray adhesive (3M #77) and started lapping the sole. The plane was fully assembled and the blade fully retracted.
Things seemed to be getting better – until they started getting worse. At the end of it all I have a slightly convex sole: the toe and heel are out of flat with the area around the mouth by about .0015″ and the sides of the sole are out of flat with a wandering midline lengthwise “hump” by .001-.002″ or more. The errors are due to my lapping technique – my grip on the plane, stance, etc. – and maybe also the slight concavity of my glass surface.
So now I am not sure where to go from here. I would very much like to get this thing done successfully myself but I am 5’6″ tall woman with medium sized hands, not especially strong, and now wonder if I am capable of accurately lapping a plane this large. I also have an old used #7 that needs tuning. I know I am not going to be able to fettle that one by hand!
Do you all have any advice or technique suggestions?
If the conclusion is that I should go to a machinist, does anyone know of a machinist in eastern Massachusetts that does a good job with flattening handplane soles and getting the sides exactly square to the sole?
Thanks very much for your help!
Vivian
Replies
What vintage is the 5? If it is post 1950 or so, you may just want to get an older one and start again.
Vintage 5's are cheap. You can get great users on eBay daily for less than $30 (sometimes far less). I've bought several over the years. If you get a pre-WWII one, odds are it will be relatively flat already. Second, it's a jack, not a smooth, so sole perfection is hardly required.
In short, just getting another plane may well be far cheaper than going the machine shop route.
Hi Samson,
Thanks for your reply! I don't know the vintage but it's not all that old - the knob and tote are brown plastic. If I can't deal with this one I think I will move along.
Thanks again,
Vivian
Since you've made the sole convex, it is apparent that you put more pressure on the ends when beginning the push/pull strokes on your glass plate. You must adapt to this and compensate. I wish I could tell you what to do, but I think this is one of those things you are going to have to figure out because you are the only one there observing. But, one technique a fellow once told me of is to lap/polish/grind in a figure eight motion. Most of us, I believe, naturally take up a to-and-fro or circular motion when we hand lap. He claimed the figure eight would even out any excess pressure being applied at any particular point. The other thing to do is to rotate the object being lapped a quarter turn every so often.
I also agree with the advice to avoid the expense of a machinist. Simply pick up another user #5. Then you'll have parts!
Good luck.
Hi Sapwood (sorry I don't know your real name) -
Thanks for your advice! I may just do that, look for another 5. I'll see if anything can be done for this one before I give up on it.
Thanks again,
Vivian
Piece of cake
This article is for a block plane but applies to your plane. Get a small angle grinder ( can rent one) and go for it. To get you back onto the toe and tail by removing metal between the throat and toe etc. Then, of coarse, use your glass and sand paper to bring toe, front of throat and tail into the same plane. For your sand paper try getting one of those belt sander belts with the blue grit (purple ok but blue better) cut the loop and glue that to your glass. Cuts fast ! Lasts longer.
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesPDF.aspx?id=2091
The side to side may be a bigger problem 'cause you may need to grind on the throat and that opens it up. But at least this will help you flatten the next plane you get.
(don't talk about thousandths of an inch here it gets people all riled up). : )
Also Toshio Odate's book on tuning Japanese tools which basically says the same info as applied to wooden Japanese planes. Good because it even gets more detailed about what you are attempting.
Edited 10/28/2008 1:35 am by roc
Edited 10/28/2008 1:36 am by roc
Edited 10/28/2008 1:42 am by roc
Edited 10/28/2008 2:11 am by roc
Hi Roc,
Good - I could use a nice piece of cake about now!
Thanks very much for your advice and the article link. Looks like just the right stuff! My town library doesn't carry that Toshio Odate book but maybe I can find it elsewhere.
Thank you again - I really appreciate it.
Vivian
Vivian, you may wish to entertain the thought that you're obsessing over this issue to a greater degree than many others do.
I've got about twenty bench planes and they all plane like Jack the Bear (really well) and all I do is buy a belt sander sanding belt in about 60 grit, cut it so it's a long narrow strip, glue it down to a piece of birch plywood, and rub the sole on there for about 5 minutes or so.
If you need an extreme level of polish and shininess before you can do any woodworking, you can go to higher grits.
That gets them flat enough to work fine. People who say that the soles of bench planes need to be flatter than that and measured with a micrometer must be doing some kind of different woodworking than what I'm doing. Maybe I'm missing something, but I enjoy using my bench planes, they work great, and I'm surely not telling a tale of woe.
My largest bench plane I have is a Stanley Type 1 608 (a No. 8-sized Bedrock). How thin do you want the shavings that it makes?
Good luck, Ed, a knuckle-dragging galoot
>Lonesome DoveSorry couldn't get past the bit in the book where they are kicking the woman in the stomach. I must be weak minded. I hear the movie was excellent though cause they used period horse tack.
>I must be weak minded<But very entertaining. I got an over/under bet of how many more names of well-known woodworkers you can drop into the "Crooked Planing" thread without saying anything useful.If Larry McMurtry is too violent for you, recommend that you don't pick up a Cormac McCarthy.Good luck, Ed"Yes, but what's good for me ain't necessarily good for the weak-minded." - Augustus McCrae, Lonesome Dove
Didn't know it was a sin to talk about magazine authors. Knots is just for knots reader's experiences. (and ok to mention authors of totally unrelated texts.) Got it. Where can I read a list of your rules that you made up for everybody? That will be entertaining.Have you written any articles for this magazine? I would be curious to read them. Might even mention, drop your name, if it might help someone.
>Have you written any articles for this magazine? I would be curious to read them. Might even mention, drop your name, if it might help someone.<No, Roc, I do not seek to make money from woodworking in any of the 5 major ways that other people do: 1) Writing about it; 2) Teaching about it; 3) Making tools and selling them; 4) Buying or acquiring tools, lumber, or other materials and selling for a profit; or, 5) Making objects out of wood and selling them.So writing an article for FWW would not be of any interest to me. I have a friend who published an online article with FWW - she described it as "GRRRRRRRRR!..." experience. (I think I have that quote right - been a few years). So color me a reader, lurker and hobbyist.Take care, Ed"Yes, but what's good for me ain't necessarily good for the weak-minded." - Augustus McCrae, Lonesome Dove
Hi Ed,
Thanks for your reply! Yes, I have been - justly - accused of obsessing excessively over such things. Do tell, is the area around the mouth/throat of your Stanley Type 1 #608 coplanar with the toe and heel? And how about a 1 thou shaving?
I'm already wondering what I'm going to do with the used #7 that's waiting for me on the shelf (an eBay purchase). I'd really like to use that one for shooting.
Thanks again!
Vivian
>Do tell, is the area around the mouth/throat of your Stanley Type 1 #608 coplanar with the toe and heel? <Hi Vivian - I tend to have a bit of fun with "knots," but yes, the toe and heel and the area around the mouth are the crucial areas, as most conventional wisdom will tell you. They should be coplanar, and then you go to the other things that you need to do to get the plane to work correctly. Roughly similar in principle to the idea that if you were tuning up a band saw, first you would make sure that the two wheels were coplanar, and then that would make it easy to make all the other adjustments to make it work correctly. Good luck with your woodworking, Ed
"Yes, but what's good for me ain't necessarily good for the weak-minded." - Augustus McCrae, Lonesome Dove
Vivian,
If you place the glass plate on two blocks at the outer ends and press down in the middle with just finger pressure you will find that it is quite flexible, easily bowing way more than the .001 that you are hoping to achieve. In other words the glass plate will be no flatter than the bench top it is sitting on.
When a machinist laps a tool flat by hand it is typically done on a cast iron plate that is heavily ribbed underneath to prevent any flexing. Even small lapping plates just 4" by 8" are typically a full inch thick to prevent any distortion.
To be honest, I feel that lapping has become a fetish with little proven value, don't get too caught up in it. For hundreds of years planes had wooden soles that were never all that flat and yet they were used to create a lot of furniture.
John White
Hi John,
Thanks for your response! Your are confirming what I expected - nothing in this world is really true or flat. Hard to accept ;o)
Thanks again,
Vivian
Vivian,
I think you are more than close enough. Traditionally, the #5 is a roughing plane. It's good to have a #4 sized plane with a flat sole and all the features that make planes perform. But if you've already got that, I recommend reserving this plane for the rough work it was designed for. Move the frog back to open the throat, and grind a nice curve into the blade side to side wise.
If you are looking for a plane to flatten boards and don't want to use a #7, try a #6. These are cheap and plentiful on the second hand market primarily because dealer, and hand plane afficiando extordinaire Pat Leach doesn't like them. But I think it could be a nice size for you. I would think you'd need to have a fairly flat sole on that.
I use wooden planes which on any given day won't have flat soles. So what happenes to me is that the plane starts clogging. The reason is that the sole is concave and I set the blade too deep, and a larger than desired shaving came up and clogged the throat. Another symptom might be excessive tearout. I'm not sure what a convex sole would do. It may be difficult to get an edge straight, but my guess would be it would function just fine.
So I guess I'm saying, don't flatten just for the sake of it. And by all means, sharpen your irons and try your planes first and see if all the labor of flattening was worth it. I rarely can tell the difference. And you may never be able to do much better than a few thou. Guys on another forum suggest taking your planes to a guy with a surface grinder if you want a really accurate sole.
Good luck with your #5
Adam
Edited 10/29/2008 1:17 pm ET by AdamCherubini
You mentioned that you couldn't get the plane bottom flat in the first post so I need to ask you what are you measuring the sole with? Some of the error may be coming from the tools and method you are using and the sole could actually be better than you think. Or worse.... but you don't want to hear that part do you? ;)
Hello Inspector,
Excellent question, especially since it appears that even my 12 inch Starrett combination square is not exactly square.
I am using a Veritas steel straight edge, 24 inches long, and the Starrett 12 inch rule/straight edge that is part of the combination square.
By the way, do you have any recommendations for affordable but actually square squares?
Thank you, QC!
Vivian
jbtx,Square square,It is possible and customary procedure (or as Pooh says "Crustimony proseed cake", to tune the combination square. There are little "lands" inside the square's body that you can touch a bit with a file and bring the ruler back into square with the casting. Make sure the ruler is straight first.Slide the ruler out of the casting and look in the bottom of the slot. You will see a raised area down the middle of the bottom of the slot. These get worn from use and one can file the one on the opposite side to compensate . I forget where i read this but was probably in one of these magazines:http://www.homeshopmachinist.net/Do question the bit about metal planes in 17 1800s. (finally ! someone who spells worse than i do) The Romans had metal planes in the second century and hundreds of years ago the Japanese were able to tune the soles of their wooden planes to less than a thousandth using match planed then reversed wooden straight edges. See the Toshio book. Wood craft sells it or:http://search.barnesandnoble.com/booksearch/isbnInquiry.asp?r=1&ISBN=9780941936460&ourl=Japanese%2DWoodworking%2DTools%2FToshio%2DOdateYes by all means what ever it takes to keep from actually DOING the wood working. : ) Sure is fun once you are actually doing it though. Again not incompatible. The reading and tuning tools and the actual wood working. I call it well rounded. Of coarse I get a little too well rounded if I just sit on the couch and read about it too much.
Edited 10/31/2008 1:34 am by roc
Viv,
You have gotten a lot of conflicting advice.
You have gotten a lot of good advice (in my opinion).
Can you tell which is which?
Here is my advice, and it is different than everyone else who responded to you. Give your Stanley #5 to the Salvation Army. Buy a Lie Nielsen #5. The sole is already flat. It is a PHENOMENAL plane. It is very easy to adjust down to a gnat's eyebrow.
The Lie Nielsen has an interesting aspect. Go to EBay and look at the Lie Nielsen planes that have already sold. You will find that even five and ten years old, they go for almost full retail new!!! How can that be? There have been threads here on that subject, but that isn't relevant here. The relevant fact is that even after you have completely fettled your Stanley, it will be impossible to sell for what you bought it for, and you will have spent a lot of time getting frustrated, and not getting woodwork done. With the LN, all you do it hone the blade and you are ready to go! It is a lot easier to gain planing skills with a GREAT plane than with a cheap, poorly made one that you worked hard to get into the best shape it can be, which isn't all that good. You could buy a new Hock blade and chip breaker for your Stanley and it would then be a big improvement over what it currently is, but still a shadow of the Lie Nielsen, and it will cost you an arm and a leg.
In terms of life cycle cost, and in terms of pure enjoyment, and in terms of usability, the Lie Nielsen is the ONLY WAY TO GO. Don't listen to the others. Listen to me. (Of course, that is what everyone really means, even if they don't say it.) But in this case, I'm right. :-) Yuk Yuk Yuk.
If you are a hobbyist, the only reason to do woodwork is for the pure enjoyment of it. I guarantee you, you will really enjoy the LN right out of the box (after you hone the blade).
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Mel, At Long Last Mel!
Wow. No more suffering? I can't believe it. Actually do the thing I long to do but fear the most - woodwork? My world is spinning.
But now you have opened the door to another incredibly controversial and crucial topic - and probably additional way to avoid the craft: Lie-Nielsen or Lee Valley?
I look forward to your reply!
Thanks very much,
Viv
Viv,
I like your attitude.Some people ask hard questions.
Your question is so simple, it is a no brainer.First, both LN and LV are both HIGH QUALITY.
Both will serve you very well, out of the box (after honing).
BUT, as I pointed out in my first message to you, you can always get almost all of your money back on a Lie Nielsen on EBAY, even after using the plane for many years. Unfortunately that isn't the case with Lee Valley.PLEASE DO NOT BELIEVE ME. CHECK FOR YOURSELF. Go to EBay and check out what I said. Never believe anyone on Knots. ALWAYS check for yourselfThe only one on Knots you can trust is me. :-) Yuk yukSo given about equal quality, and given that Lie Nielsen planes are a very liquid investment, should you ever want your money back, and that Lee Valley planes do not enjoy that status, the answer to your question is
LIE NIELSEN, hands down. ((Bevel down too)) :-)My recommendation to you is the 5 1/2, rather than the 5. It's extra mass makes it easier to go through difficult grain. By the way, the Lie Nielsen 4 1/2, 5 1/2 and 7 share the same blade and the same frog, so you can interchange them. That's a nice "plus". Other people will tell you about BU planes (Bevel Up). Don't pay any attention to them. I have your best interests at heart. If you don't want the slightly more heft of the 5 1/2, go for the 5.You can use the 5 as an "uber smoother", as a jointer, to remove a lot of wood quickly, at the shooting board. There are some who say that the only plane you really need is the Jack Plane. Of course, it would be nicer to have a 4, a 5 and a 7 and the low angle block plane too, but if you are strapped for cash, then go for the 5 or the 5 1/2 and the low angle block plane. Then forget about flattening soles, and have fun using GREAT planes that make you feel like an expert. Life is short. Make the most of it.
MOST IMPORTANT -- HAVE FUN.
Mel
PS do you live anywhere near Virginia? If so, stop over to my place and try out my planes. And my wife and I will provide a great meal for you and your family.Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
Vivian,
did You ever think about how the old cabinet makers in 17 – 1800 made the furnisher? No metal plan and nothing to measure 0.001” with. Oh and no LN or LV in sight.
Hilmar
jbtx,>Lie-Nielsen or Lee Valley? Today I was rough planing with my LN scrub plane; cross grain with a bit of back bevel to prevent tear out on this bubinga stuff.Then switched to my LN bevel up jack.Then went to my Veritas (Lee Valley) bevel up jointer.The world did not explode or implode or go floop ! So I deem them compatible. Buy and use both I say.For the first time the little brass throat plate stop screw on the V BU J actually caused a problem. Some how the way the wood was curling through the throat it kept getting balled up on the stop screw and the throat would clog over and over and over. I unscrewed the stop screw and removed it from the plane, for now, and all was well again. I really like the Veritas bevel up planes so I would purchase the plane again anyway even if I were purchasing all over again.
Viv
I Am A POOR Canadian
I'd Have The L.Valley First
If I Were A RICH Canadian I'd Have Both
Both Are Excellent Products
U Wouldn't Go Wrong With Either One
TOM M
If you go to 9619's house to try his bevel down planes be sure to take some rowed purple heart, cocobolo or birds eye. Just to see how the bevel downs choke and why the bevel ups have a place in your arsenal. Well you can come out to Colorado for the bevel up session.
Oh by the way the bevel up can do everything a bevel down can do and it is easier to put the blade in the plane. No silly "chip breaker" to futz around putting on just right. I have many of both BD and BU.s
Just for your perusal take both BD and BU planes side by side with the blades in place. Turn them over and look at the throat areas of both . Note the large unsupported area behind the blade on the bevel down. The forces acting on the blade from planing tends to bend the blade down and toward the rear causing it to dig in deeper and . . . what is this ? ? ? . . . the "chip breaker" exerts even more bending force on the blade in the same direction ! ? ! ? Does this seem like a good idea ? I donnnttt thinnnk soooo !.
Now look at the bevel up plane on the under side at the throat. The blade is supported right up to the edge on the bottom side preventing the planing action from bowing the blade down into the work. This is one reason you will get less tear out in reversing or difficult grain ( no tear out if sharpening angle and all are correct ). Much easier to put the correct sharpening angle on the blade; no back bevel or steep frog accessorie/option to install uninstall.
If this isn't clear go back and reread:
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/SkillsAndTechniques/SkillsAndTechniquesPDF.aspx?id=2091
for a better argument.
Bevel up has no place ? ? ? silly rabbits !
Edited 11/1/2008 4:02 am by roc
Edited 11/1/2008 4:09 am by roc
hi roc,
thanks so much for your advice! i have been studying the blade geometry issues - makes sense to me! I also read the article you referenced - very useful.
off to flatland!
thanks again,
vivian
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