Hello, everyone. I am (still) trying to get two planes (a jointer and a jack) in tune to properly four-square wood by hand. I am having a heck of a time getting the soles of the planes flat. Both planes appear to be convex on the bottom – the middle looks proud of both ends. My first thought was that my straight edge might not be straight – both planes seemed to have the same problem. When I checked it against a machinists straightedge at work, the two edges agreed (I figured they did not have complimentary distortions.) I don’t have a feeled gauge but with the straightedge sitting on the middle of the jointer, I can fit 3 or 4 pieces of paper under the end. I have a lot of metal to remove.
I started by using a piece of float glass (1/4″) with some 60 – 90 grit carbide and some oil on the jointer. Progress was extremely slow, if there was even progress at all. I have given up trying to flatten that one by this method – That much metal on a jointer will take a LOT of elbow grease to remove.
I cleaned up the plate glass today and stuck some 80 grit sandpaper to it to try working on the jack. I painted it with metal bluing to check my progress. Even though the bluing all came off at once, the straightedge still shows a convex edge.
Any advice? I am open to everything from not using the straightedge properly to the need for a machine shop to flatten the bottom for me. The main reason that I started down the path of tuning the planes was that I was not getting good results on flattening boards. Maybe my technique is off there, too? Please let me know what you think. I am out of ideas!
Thanks,
Greg
Edited 5/3/2008 6:23 pm ET by gmpatterson
Replies
Hello There!
Truing the bottom of a plane is a lot of work. That is why the Lie-Nelson line is so expensive.
Sounds to me that you are on the right track. If all is in doubt plane a piece of wood with it. See what results you get.
It may seem like a lot of work but the flatter the planes are they more pleasure you will have in using them.
Dale
Part of your problem may be that the 80 grit paper is too coarse. The cutting edges reach right up into the slight curve in the sole. Try a finer grit. I have good luck using the black fabric-backed sandpaper for metal. It cuts well and holds up well. I start at about 120 and go up. Even with 120 you'll remove the ink before the sole is true. SO you do what you can with that and go up a grad, and so on. It is tedious, but you only do it once.
Also remember that most of the plane can be concave and it doesn't matter. What counts if that the toe, the areas in front of the mouth, and the heel are co-planar.
Joe
Edited 5/3/2008 9:35 pm ET by Joe Sullivan
Greg,
With a convex bottom you need to be very careful that you don't sand off metal from the whole sole, thus retaining the banana shape albeit getting a well-scratched bottom!
When you push the plane back and forth on the sandpaper you would only need to rock it a tiny bit (those paper-thicknesses you mentioned) and you will be sanding the toe, the middle and the heel. Of course, you only want to sand the middle, until the flat area of "the middle" gradually extends fore and aft to become "the whole sole". Otherwise you merely enhance the banana shape - maybe even make it WORSE. Aieeee!
If only that sole had been concave instead. :-)
Happily I have never had a plane with a signficantly unflat sole (it helps to buy modern high quality ones such as LV, LN and Marcou). Any that have had a bump/dip or two have been easily flattened as there was always a great flat area of sole to act as reference. Your concave sole lacks any such flat reference area and perhaps that is your fundamental difficulty (as well as having to remove significant metal).
I might mention that I did take a slight end-to-end concavity out of a 22" Veritas jointer plane using my large (6" X 30") powered belt sander for the initial attack. I was very careful (slight pressure, 3 - 4 seconds per sand then a cooling period) so the procedure did work and saved a lot of hand sanding (which was saved for the final phase of flattening, when there was very little metal to remove). I wouldn't risk this with a convex sole though - that banana might get worse in no time at all.
Perhaps one of the plane fettlers of Knots has a method for keeping a convex-soled plane in a single plain as it is flattened? It would be difficult to shim the front and back, I imagine. But perhaps there is a fettler with a method.............?
Lataxe
Thanks, Everyone.
Ineresting point about the sandpaper being high enough to take the ink off the plane. I hand't considered that.
Lataxe, I have been considering purchasing new, high quality planes. It is a big investment and will take a while for me to "find" enough money but that is what I am thinking. I wanted to make a good faith effort to get my existing planes into decent working order - I am still inexperienced so even with the best tools it will take me a while to achieve great results. My theory is that I will upgrade my tools when my skills improve to the point that they are holding me back (not sure that will ever happen but it is at least a theory!)
This is a case where I prefer to flatten a plane on a long beltsander. The advantage here is that you can focus the pressure on one area, in this case the mouth. It is difficult to avoid following the curviture of the sole when lapping on a flat board. So the alternative to a belt sander is to scrape the raised section of the sole until it is flat enough to lap.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Derek and others,
I would second Derek's suggestion of a long-belt sander. Reason is as follows: In my manufacturing plant, I have a complete machine and tool making facility. Recently I flattened the sole of a smoother on my home sander. Yesterday, on a lark, I brought the sole in to the plant and asked one of my machinists to put it on the surface grinder to "true it up". Make a long story short, my machinist barely took off a .0015" of an inch of material over the entire sole of the plane! Basically, the sander can achieve flatness somewhat the same as that on many premium planes.
My sander is a Craftsman 6" X 48" that I brought from my deceased Father's shop for sharpening my lathe tools (superb use). The belt itself is a new 120 grit AO belt. The sander was a hobbyist use and the cast iron bed under the belt shows no wear. I did use extreme care in how I presented/lowered the sole to the belt. I would expect these results can readily be achieved on most similar sanders.
T.Z.
Hi Tony
I have had very good results using my 6x48. If there is a lot of iron to remove, then I might begin with 80 grit, moving to 120, then 240. The "trick" is how the plane is presented to the moving belt. I literally slam it down as fast as possible, so that as little time is spent on an edge. I have got pretty good at getting it flat first time. I suspect that results might even be better if one could place the plane flat on the belt, then start the machine. A foot-operated switch could be the answer.
It is interesting and very reassuring that you got these results. I could see the difference in performance after this method. For example, a mediocre #4 is transformed to take fine shavings when the mouth area is flattened. This is not surprising, but that it took 30 seconds is. I once wrote an article on the "10 cent" system (http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTechniques/The%2010%20Cent%20Sharpening%20System.html) in which I lapped and tuned 8 planes in 3 hours. This was made possible by the belt sander on the soles of the planes. More recently I sanded the sole of my Stanley #51 chute plane after restoring it (now THAT is confidence in the method!).
This method must be recommended with much caution. It is not for the first time user of belt sanders. Practice first with wood ... what's that - this is what they were designed for?! Mine rarely sees wood as it is used as part of my metal working weaponry.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Derek,
I fully agree with all that you have said. My stationery belt sander is not used for wood and soley for sharpening tasks. I feel that sanders are very much under-utilized for these tasks. I also agree that first time users of these techniques should approach the task very cautiously and maybe with a tool that is not the prime user in the shop. Personally, I've been toying with the idea of making a Tormek type rod holder with some device holders to aid in some of my sharpening, but that may not really be needed as I've gotten pretty adept at free hand holding.
What must be remembered is to have a firm, resolute hold on the item as well as motions to the sander--trying to "finese" the tool on will result in rounding towards the edges or worse. Also, users must not try to substitute, say, a disc sander for the belt, simply because the length of the sole is less than the diameter of the disc!
Stanley and many other manufacturers of planes used stationery belt sanders for flattening of soles for decades and if good enough for "ole Mr. Stanley", than it should definitely warrant a visit or two from us.
T.Z.
I've been toying with the idea of making a Tormek type rod holder with some device holders to aid in some of my sharpening
Hi Tony
I assume that you have seen my jig for the belt sander? No?
http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com.au/showthread.php?t=16156
Here it is with a 1200 grit belt (amazing finish!) - although I now only grind 80 - 240 grits - and the "honing disk", a leather strop on the disk sander.
View Image
The blade holder is made from steel angle iron. Similar to the Tormek.
Very handy machine for grinding all kinds of blades. I have posted articles on grinding cambers on plane blades. Of course, flat grinds are a cinch. I also prefer it to a grinder for my lathe chisels.
Regards from Perth
Derek
Tony & Derek,
That's fine for many bench planes but doesn't work, at least mine doesn't, for a #7 cause the plane is too long. Got any ideas for those or for the aircraft class #8? Or, maybe I missed something?
Reghards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 5/6/2008 3:15 pm ET by KiddervilleAcres
Buy a longer stationery sander!
Seriously, Bob, you have brought up a good point: a #7 is 22" long and the platen on my 6" X 48" sander is only 17-1/2" long. I would not under any circumstances try flattening from one end of the sole and then reversing and flattening from the other! Nor would I try flattening with the stop removed from the sander (unless you like your plane sole flying across your shop!). Question remains, though, is how flat do you want/need your #7 to be? I know at least one of the surface grinders at my plant can do 22" of length, so you could find a local machine shop to flatten the sole if you are so inclined.
I have been using a belt sander for some 20 odd years to put bevels on chisels and other sharpening tasks. It was because of using a belt sander that I decided to buy a Worksharp 3000 about 6 or 8 months ago. The Worksharp does a decent job, but quite frankly, I don't use it very much. For a lot of jobs, free-hand sharpening (for me) is the quickest. For other jobs, such as my turning tools and occassionally flattening a plane sole, the belt sander can't be beat. I looked at Derek's site and he has a nice set-up for putting flat bevels on tools with the belt sander and I would suggest his methods offer a nice and easy way to make a rather mundane task very quick and tolerable!
T.Z.
(is there some way we can attach this thread to Mel's LN jointer thread to give him a boost to 3000????)
Tony,
how flat do you want/need your #7 to be?
Perhaps I'm getting old but I like the entire sole of all my planes to be as flat as possible on their entire length. That's the way the plane was originally intended to be, not just certain parts of the sole.
There are those who advocate the toe, mid esction/throat and tail are all that is necessary but I don't agree with that. There are times when the entire sole of the plane is not landed on the workpiece, at least that's been my experience. Without the entire sole being flat I feel the landing may not be flat.
I do respect your advocation of buying a new tool as it dovetails nicely with the unwritten woodworkers creed; "anything to justify purchase of tools", it's good for the economy, etc. :-)
When I first embarked down the slippery slope it quickly became apparent to me when fettling old plane soles that a machinist is your friend. Hey, I'm at least contributing to the economy.
Oh, and between Mel & Will I'm sure they can pump the long winded discussion well over 3,000. Then again I can't think of a better place to vent my latest pot shot at Festoolies. :-)
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
That's a great setup and article!
Denny
Greg,
Like you, I got the urge to take some old planes and fettle them up to user standards and have at some waney wood. I didn't have much problem flattening the soles of a few block planes. Then I tried a Jack plane, egad, lotsa work. Then I bought an old Stanley #7. EGAD!!!!! LOTSA work. Okay. I proved to myself I could do it. That was nice. I am now older and wiser and have proven I am a man. :-)
An economist, looking at me doing this would say, "Mel, you sweat a lot, and you are wasting your time and energy. Why not just buy some Lie Nielsen planes, which can be used right out of the box (with some honing work on the irons), and if you ever get sick of them, just sell them on EBay, where you can usually get almost what you paid for them."
If you don't believe me, check out Lie Nielsen on EBay. They generally go for just about full price, even in an old and used condition. Let's not get into "why" that is the case. It is true, that Lie Nielsen planes are the cheapest planes you can buy, when you consider cost in the "Life Cycle" sense. Besides, they are a joy to use -- to my way of thinking, much more fun than a fettled Stanley with the original blade. You can start upgrading parts of an old Stanley to make it more useable, but now you are into significant cost, which is harder to recover than it is with a Lie Nielsen.
Except for the "learning", fettling up those old planes was a waste of my time and energy. My advice is: if you can afford a Philip Marcou plane, that is the way to go. If you cant, (and unfortunately I am in that position), go with Lie Nielsen, and enjoy high quality from the first moment you pick it up, and you can rest easy in the knowledge that it is a "liquid investment" that you can get your money back on whenever you want.
Indeed, my belief is that Lie Nielsen planes will be going up in price. So they are an investment.
My opinions on this are far different than those of Lataxe and Derek Cohen, and they are much smarter than I. I always pay attention to what they write -- then I think the issue through on my own, and because of a different value system, often come to different conclusions. One of the great things about Knots is the wide different in value systems that its denizens have. If you value the search for a great way to lessen your work and improve your ability to flatten the sole of an old plane, then that is a valid value system. If like me, you'd rather focus on woodworking, then buy a Lie Nielsen.
I get nothing from Lie Nielsen. This is not an advertisement. I am not affiliated in any way with Lie Nielsen. I am simply a woodworker who has found that aside from the small amount one pays to be in Knots, the biggest value in woodworking, are the planes from Lie Nielsen. (and the gouges from Pfeil).
Have fun. I hope you find your journey along the spiritual path of woodworking practices to be satisfying. I sense that you are very frustrated. I offer a way to dump the frustration which is short of finding a "long bed" belt sander. If you do find one, be sure to use a gentle touch in flattening the sole of your plane. You may want to ask your wife or your girlfriend, if she has a lighter touch, to do the job for you. This, of course is a way of using your woodworking hobby to bring you closer to your loved ones. And if you screw up the sole of your plane on the long belt sander, you can always find more old planes to work on. So you can be sure that you can find happiness no matter which path you take to woodworking salvation. There are many woodworkers who really find that they enjoy getting away from the woodwork for long periods of time and focussing on spending their weekends scouring tag sales in search of an old Stanley, and then spending more weekends finding out how to get those planes into useable shape, and then spend time and money getting a new iron, etc, and then re-working the Japanning, etc etc etc. You could get out of woodworking altogether and just get into redoing old planes. Or you could go on reading long messages in Knots. But my suggestions is to buy Lie Nielsen planes and get back to making furniture.
Hope you enjoyed this.
Mel
Measure your output in smiles per board foot.
To state the obvious, you do have a blade installed in the plane when checking flatness don't you? Some of the older jointers do have a definite "bow" in the sole without the blade.
After fettling several planes, some for experience and some because they were unavailable in the general market, I limit myself to buying LNs / LVs or making my own from scratch as needed. The planes you have sound like severe cases. I would do as Derek suggests to start with and if thats not doing it, simply take them to a machinist and have the soles milled dead flat. Might cost more than the planes but you may be happier with the finished product and spend the time difference on things that matter more.
BB
I have just read a number of these replys and they all mention "fettling". I didn't really know what the word meant so I looked it up in my dictionary (Webster's New Collegiate Dictionary) and see that it means "loose material thrown on the hearth of a furnace to protect it. " What the heck does that have to do with woodworking ?
Ralph
There are more definitions.
Webster's II New Riverside University Dictionary has a definition that says it's from the Middle English word fetlen, and it also means to to shape, probably from Old English fetel, to girdle.
The Pocket Oxford English Dictionary defines the word as meaning "fettle, trim, (in good f.)."
Personally I'm not fond of the words 'fettling' or 'to fettle' to describe what I've always known as 'tuning' up or 'preparing' a plane, saw, chisel, etc, for work.
However, English is a living language and fettle and its variations are the current 'hot' terms for describing 'tuning' tools ready for work, and there's not much anyone can do to resist such changes I suppose. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
Hi Richard,Our railway repairers are known as fettlers still.I think it's an arcane word meaning to remove a small amount of metal from something to get it to fit. Seems to be that way every time I've heard it used.I'll spend a minute or two on google and see if I can find anything useful. Am tied up writing a manual at the moment.http://www.google.com.au/search?q=define%3A+fettlehttp://dictionary.reference.com/browse/fettlehttp://dictionary.reference.com/wordoftheday/archive/2002/08/20.htmlmirriam-webster
Main Entry:
2fettle
Function:
transitive verb
Inflected Form(s):
fet·tled; fet·tling Listen to the pronunciation of fettling ˈfet-liŋ, ˈfe-təl-iŋ
Etymology:
British dialect, to set in order, get ready, from Middle English fetlen to shape, prepare; perhaps akin to Old English fetian to fetch — more at fetch
Date:
1881: to cover or line the hearth of (as a reverberatory furnace) with loose material (as sand or gravel)
Richard,
On Tyneside there is a long tradition of engineering with many branches and specialisms. As a boy in the 50s and 60s, when those traditions were still extant and quite mature, the word "fettle" was in universal use to mean either "mend / repair" or "make the final fitments to get a newly-wrought thing to work as intended".
The word was (and still is) in general usage by the population at large - applied to any thing or situation which is in some way awry and requires a knowledgeable and skilled person to get it working. It was even applied to those (few) trade unionists who could actually get some necessary new process sanctioned by the cruel and avaricious employers without having to call a strike or otherwise browbet the reactionary old fools.
I now live in Lancashire where there were many cloth-weaving mills with a similar long tradition of mechanicals and associated enginering. I'm told that in the mills "a fettler" was a recognised title for the chaps that went about tuning up or repairing the looms and other gubbins so that they worked without snagging, breaking threads, creaking with hot bearings or even eating the small children required to work there.
Lataxe
Lataxe,
http://www.fettling.co.uk/aspbite/categories/index.asp?intCatID=35
How appropo! Seems there are those who equate fettling with fiddling, but not a stringed bow?
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Hello!
Before the thread dies out I wanted to thank everyone for their advice - hearing the different sides of the discussion helped me almost as much as the technical advice. I decided that I am going to go ahead and fettle (in the archaic English sense) my No. 5 but give up on the No. 7 as it would be too much work. Besides, I bought the No. 7 on-line but the No. 5 was my grandfathers so I have a sentimental attachment to it. Besides, it will be good for me to have the experience of having tooled a big plane - I like Basil and other's comments. Thanks again for all of your help!
Greg
Bob,When I use the term fiddling- a term borrowed from honored use- not definition, more polite than saying f#rting, it is the result of adaptive behavior, the result of which is to buy good tools rather than waste good time f##ting around with (maybe a few exceptions) mostly antiquated inferior metallurgical wood gnawing monstrosities produced in such industrial revolution quantities that quality control was an anathema to the seller. Many of these beasties are as they are, not by abuse or tragedy but by design as they came that way from their maker.I do not have a problem in fettling (Lataxe's 2nd def.- as in fine tuning) a newly acquired new plane or such. I.E., honing the final edge on a new LN blade.
I can't apply the term to the endless overhauls of old Stanleys / Baileys / Millers/ etc. Most of these are not fine tuning but major gross overhauls, correcting faults the factories left in before sale. Such animals are not being "fettled" but are bring completely rebuilt into a whole new products- ending up still, for the most part, as inferior to current equivalents.
If it is a hobby to "restore" these babies, all well and good. I love my old planes and they look good on the shelf.
If an old plane (tool) is to be used, I still say, get thee to a machinist and "get 'er done".
Of my 10+ old "fettled" planes, all deliver their finest - for their design, many times in the .0015 - .002 range, there are only two - a Bedrock 5, and a no brainer Scrub 40 that I use on a regular basis.
The rest look.........nice.Endless adjustments are another matter.I and my rosin are in fine fettle, as may be you and yours.Regards,John
LataxeAs a lapsed Geordie, now living in Oz I can attest to the accuracy of you comments re fettling (definitely not fiddling which is something altogether different).I am pleased to see that gm is going to fettle his #5 and hope he is putting the #7 on view in the shed because I am sure that when the one thou shavings are floating out of the #5, the #7 will be looked at in a new light.Regards and good luck
There ya go Lataxe. It just goes to show doesn't it how word usage varies from region to region? I didn't come across the word when first introduced to plane and chisel tuning, and don't recall hearing the job described as fettling until probably the 1990's.
But apparently you southerners from Geordie land or thereabouts, where all the girls seemingly wear nothing more than a brave smile, high heeled sandals, mini-skirt, crop top and an invisible thermal jacket on bitterly cold Saturday nights as they venture forth to get blootered, do plenty of fettling. Slainte.Richard Jones Furniture
Indeed word usage does vary from region to region. I be neither a fettler nor a fiddler but at times I am in fine fettle, even at the very edge of the world.
But where I come from originally one not only tuned engines, but one could also tune ones china for a glide , or better, ones goose for a ride.
But to get back to the original subject: I think it is better to simply prepare those planes (specifically them Stanley type items)as quickly as possible in order to make them ready for a (little) work, lest the fettling becomes fiddling.
I bet nobody can make head or tail of that.Philip Marcou
Thanks !
Ralph,Pray abandon thy fettle if not of good mettle. Think of it more as fiddling. As in fiddling when the work awaits. One must appreciate the total Zen of rescuing "the loose material thrown on the furnace" of obsolescence and resurrecting it with mighty endeavor as a mediocre version of what is currently state of the art. It is a protection of, as Proust would have said twer he were a woodworker, "the furnace of things past" .
Or in this forum and in these contexts - - making a 3 wheeled 409 Ivo quad-hemi out of a 4 wheeled go-cart. Now we all are to be uttering in unison, the greater monosyllabic Aum, thusly --- OM.......... OM..........OM..........So it is written.
Go forth and fly thin shavings.BBIt's been a long day"WAITER, more Bacardis....
Everything Old is New Again"
When I started fettling planes I noticed this problem. The biggest culprit is how you hold the plane during flattening. First thing you want to do is to assemble and adjust the plane with the blade you are going to use. Lock the screws on the frog enough to stop it from moving but not too tight that it start to pull up and distort the sole. Install the chip-breaker and cap-iron together just as if you were going to use it. retract the blade as far as it will go
Now when you are flattening, stay away from the tote and knob. that is a definite no no.
Hold the plane by putting your hands on the sides and the bed of as low as possible position your body so that your weight is equally distributed over the plane. pushing from one side tends to put an angle in the sole and when you turn the plane around and reverse the direction you tend to get a convex shape across the width of the plane. pushing from above also helps to prevent the convex shape along the length of the sole. The main thing is to keep the centre of gravity as low as possible and avoid rocking motions. Because the sole is now convex, you could try using a file to relieve the hill and get a flatter bottom. Be very careful when you put it in the vise. Not too much pressure. it could crack and make sure you use a flat stroke.
Hope this helps
Harold Patterson
A piece of 1/4" thick glass is only slightly less flexible than a piece of 1/4" plywood. so it is only as flat as the surface it is sitting on. If you put the glass on your bench top it will only be as flat as the wooden bench.
To flatten a plane sole to within .001" or .002" you need a plate that is at least that flat even with a lot of pressure on it, basically a machinists granite surface plate at least a couple of inches thick. The cast iron tops on typical home shop power tools will often be out by quite a bit more than the accuracy you are trying to achieve.
John White
A friend in the granite counter business gave me a somewhat irregular broken piece of 1 3/4 granite that he would otherwise have thrown away. I trimmed it with a water-cooled diamond saw. At this point is more or less 20" x 26", and a very beautiful piece of stone. Checked with a high quality straight edge, it is very true, and it sure won't flex.Anyone wanting granite might ask around at counter shops. They might charge you, but not very much.J
A few thoughts:
What types (age) are your 5 and 7? Those made after WW2 are vastly inferior in terms of casting, machining, fit, and finish - and therefore are also inferior in performance.
I've owned and fettled at least a dozen Stanley 5's - mostly dating from the 30's. I've never yet found one that was significantly out of flat on the sole. I've never yet found one that could not be fettled within a couple hours into a first class user that planed very well if not excellent in all woods.
I've owned and fettled about 5 Stanley's 7 - again from the 30's and before. While they are less likely to be coplaner on all parts of the sole, they were often coplaner on the most important points (front of mouth, toe and heel). A strip of snadpaper clamped to the iron table of TS or jointer and a half hour's work and any minor issues were resolved. Again, all planed very well.
I mention this stuff because it is my direct experience and I just feel like someone ought o speak up for the old planes that everyone seems to quickly denigrate and urge you to get a LN. Whatever - more for me.
I have feddled dozens of planes and have only seen a convex sole once on an old Stanley #7 due to bump out behind the mouth that caused the plane to rock front to back in use. The wear on the toe, heel and bump out was obvious. On your planes, my guess is that improper lapping by a previous owner put these planes in this condition since they share the same problem. I fixed the #7 by carefully mounting the plane sole up in a vise by first "infilling the plane with some plywood cut to fit snugly between the cheeks because I was paranoid about cracking the cheeks. I then used a #10 single cut flat file perpendicular to the sole and carefully draw filed (I think thats the right term) the raised area checking my work constantly with a straight edge lest I over did it. Once I got the bump out I lapped the whole sole flat. I didn't hold the plane by the tote and knob when I lapped the sole, instead I used a combination of hand holds directly on the body of the plane. I started by placing my hands on either side of the frog so that my fingers were resting on the back of the frog with my thumbs pressing on the lever cap. Then I flipped the plane around so that my fingers were on the lever cap and thumbs on the rear of the frog. The rest of the lapping was done pressing down on the top of the sole with my fingers spread out behind the knob and in front of the tote in an effort to spread out the downward force as evenly as possible on the middle section of the sole until the straight edge showed the sole to be flat end to end.
Derek's suggestion of scrapping the sole first is a good one if you need to remove a lot of metal. Save your money and don't go to a machinist. The time you would spend finding one and running back and forth will be more hours than it will take you to flatten the soles yourself. Good luck.
I had a similar situation as you describe with 2 #7s and a #5, although they were concave but still needed a lot of work. Talked to a machinist and he flattened them all and trued them to their sides.
You do need to deal with a machinist who has experience dealing with planes or the like - I was lucky in that regard.
He charged me $100 for all three. That's pretty tough to beat for that price I think. I too agree with Samson about the old iron but I've not had the opportunity to try/use a LN. And I also had a few dollars left for some replacement blade upgrades.
Works for me,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Greg
Flattening a convex sole is the most difficult as the plane tends to rock on the sole as you move it. I have been successful in flattening a convex sole by using 80 grit stuck to a block with spray on adhesive, and working on localised areas with the plane held upside down Ie sole uppermost and checking frequently with a straight edge. When you have the sole with a reasonable flat area you can then move to using 80 grit stuck on a stable flat surface such as a jointer or saw bench table or using float glass of at least 1/2" thickness on some other stable surface. When moving the plane on the abrasive you need to be very aware of how you hold the plane and keep pressure consistently down around either side of the mouth area of the plane. When doing this have the blade installed and tensioned but not protruding from the sole which will ensure the sole is under the same stresses as it will be in use.
It is a very tedious, dirty and time consuming task. however the rewards are very satisfying. I have done several planes and get a great deal of joy in using them.
I would not recommend machining the sole as it is easy to heat up the plane body which can cause further distortion due to stresses from differential expansion, which may take time to become evident.
Regards and good luck
Basil,
" I would not recommend machining the sole as it is easy to heat up the plane body which can cause further distortion due to stresses from differential expansion".
Just in passing: what machining do you have in mind? If it is surface grinding then there is no heat to talk of, assuming coolant is used with the correct wheel. I find that the work does not even reach blood heat.
Ditto for a shaper.
If you are thinking of a woodworking type belt sander this is most likely to result in over heating, especially if an unsuitable belt is used and the operator is not really careful.Philip Marcou
PhillipI would not disagree that correct use of appropriate and well set up machines can do the job. However, my comments were aimed at woodies who are in the main (I believe) not equipped to do so. A well equipped and competent machinist could certainly do the job for you, but this may not be a cost effective solution.Using the method I suggested whilst messy and time consuming does have the advantaged of building skills at little or no cost, and these skills can make additional work quicker and easier.It is in the end the individuals choice re cost, satisfaction, time and effectiveness. From my perspective I enjoy the work and get a great deal of satisfaction, not only from designing & making pieces, but also tuning and making tools. I have in the past found it quicker and more cost effective to refurbish my own planes, especially when you take into consideration time in sourcing and briefing tradesmen and waiting for the job to get done.
Building up the skills for refurbishment of tools also provide the ability to quickly sense when a tool is not performing to its best and quickly find and resolve problems.This approach may not suit all, and especially a professional woodie intent on running a business where it is more cost effective to buy in skills, experience and tools. I am a bit of a romantic, and when i pop my clogs I will likely have little money in the bank but hopefully I will have a smile on my dial.Regards
I cleaned up the plate glass today and stuck some 80 grit sandpaper to it to try working on the jack. I painted it with metal bluing to check my progress. Even though the bluing all came off at once, the straightedge still shows a convex edge.
Reader of other forums (fora?) won't be too surprised to see...this sole flattening link
BugBear
Your glass isn't flat at least not when you are pressing down on it. Glass is far too flexible to be a reliably flat surface when you are talking about thousandths of an inch. Try this, suspend your glass plate between two blocks at the ends of the plate, place your straight edge on the plate and press down gently in the middle, I'll bet you will easily see that the plate is bowing down. If you are serious about flattening a plane sole you need to be working on a thick, minimum 2 inches thick, granite or cast iron plate.John White
Thick glass is better than nothing.A cheap granite surface plate is better than glass. BugBear
If you are trying for flat to something like .001", or even say .005", over the length of a plane sole, then glass is not really better than nothing.John White
Err. Yeah. OK. Granite surface plate are the best. I don't think that was ever in question.But with care, even 6mm float glass (aka window glass) could be used inverted to make a print (under minimum deflecctive forces) that would guide the process I refer too.What tolerance it would be to, I know not, but I'm guessing better than the 8 thou error I've seen on an old #4.And it's certainly better to use bendable-not-very-flat glass in my process, where the reference is used under light load, instead of the "lapping" process where the glass would be under metal-cutting loads (increasing with frustration IME)But, yeah, granite is best. Can we move on? Any comment on the rest of the process? BugBear
You said in an earlier posting that: "I cleaned up the plate glass today and stuck some 80 grit sandpaper to it to try working on the jack." so I presumed you were actually using the glass to support the paper for removing metal from the sole.
If you are using the glass to determine if the sole is flat, you are using the wrong technique if you are trying to use Prussian blue in the traditional way to determine the flatness. The way to use the bluing didn't seem to be well explained, on a quick read at least, in the link about scraping a cast iron surface flat. The bluing is applied to the surface plate where it stays liquid and then the surface being tested is slid across the blued plate so that the bluing touches and marks the high spots on the plane's sole. The marked spots on the sole are then scraped down and the process is repeated until the bluing is consistent across the entire surface or at least leaves small high spots in a closely spaced regular pattern. There is a fair amount of finesse involved in the entire process, it is easier to learn if with a teacher than from a text.John White
Heh. I just remembered the sagulator!
http://www.woodbin.com/calcs/sagulator.htmNow, when I use(d) glass as a reference, it was supported on a planed-flat (as far as I could) piece of MDF, and directly supported by router mat (squidgy rubber) to provide as little loading stress as possible. The plane is (in general) a well distributed load.Feeding "worst case" assumptions into sagulator
(end support only, 1/4" glass, all load in centre) a 12x4" glass reference sill only deflects by 2 thou.Making the assumptions more reasonable - e.g. using 3/8" glass brings the calculated sag to 0.I would thus continue to affirm that glass is a "reasonable" reference, if you can't get a surface plate (which would be better, yada, yada)I would suggest as a "fast, cheap source" 2 sheets of window glass, cleaned and stacked, supported as above, would work "well enough". BugBear
Can I butt in?
I have a 2.5 inch thick hunk of granite stone I got from Woodcraft as I remember. Maybe 12 X 10 inches.
Not very expensive in woodworking terms but very flat! AND HEAVY! And some 'Float glass?' Not sure. I got it from a local glass supplier. About 1/2 inch thick. IT IS FLAT! I got a cut from some scrap they had.. About the same size as my granite.
Not contradicting what you posted? I hope!
It'll be pretty tough to build a jig as underlayment to butt the float glass and the granite surface plate against each other in the same plane.
It might be considerably cheaper (as well as giving you another tool that you can use for many purposes) to buy a precision straightedge and check how flat your jointer outfeed table is than purchasing a long granite surface plate, or even a long chunk of 1/2" float glass. LV sells some pretty nice precision straightedges designed for this purpose, and they're not very expensive. You'll also need a set of decent feeler guages, which you can buy from any automotive supply store for less than $10.
If you've a reasonably high quality machine that hasn't been abused (some antique jointers were used so much that their tables are substantially out of flat due to wear), I suspect you'll find that you're out no more than a thousandths of an inch across the length of the outfeed table. On my jointer (a Delta DJ-20), it wasn't out even that much, which is more than fine for flattening a handplane sole.
precision straightedge ..
I have one about 8 foot long! Stainless steel approximately 1/2 inch thick with a knife edge. We used it for checking Laser Lens mounts. I grabbed it when the company went belly up!
I could have had the granite mounting table but I think the building was made around it! At least 4 foot thick and about 12 X 12 foot rectangle or is that a square?
OK, so they took the roof off to get it in there! I supervised the install....
NOW that was a hunk of granite! On the second floor and they had to reinforce the floor below with many steel I beams! and thicker foundation.. Must have cost a bundle to do it.. Maybe why they went bellyup!
They also had one even thicker (several pieces of it) for a huge CNC machine mount! Those hunks of granite needed more that just a few steel tubes filled with 5000 psi cement driven into the earth about 100 feet.
I know you are thinking of why?? The truck traffic on the local road about 500 feet away would disturb the cuts made. Everything off that machine was perfect! Or at least what the customer wanted!
Ha! I think a 12' square optical table might be a bit of overkill for flattening handplane soles - both in size and accuracy...
I have successfully flattened planes using 1/2" float glass properly supported. However, when tackling convex surfaces I have only achieved success, by firstly attacking the high points locally by using a file, or block with 80 grit paper, and checking with a straight edge untill a relatively flat ( or concave ) surface is achieved. The surface can then be flattened using the glass and paper method.
yes - if you start with a concave plane and STOP the process just when flatness is achieved, you should be able to avoid going further and generating convexity. BugBear
Question: Given a convex sole, how do you flatten it such that you end up with an entire sole 90° to the sides? That to me is the real challenge.
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Hand sand using a sanding block until you eliminate the convexity and then go to sandpaper on glass.
With all due respect, that wasn't the question/concern. How to maintain the 90° angle between the sole and sides is the issue.
I could have it done by an experienced machine shop or I could Hand sand using a sanding block as you suggested. I'm just not sure of myself as to maintaining that 90° angle.
Yes I am particular/fussy about that,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
I don't use shooting boards so I've never really worried about it.... I suppose you'd simply nip and tuck with coarse sandpaper on glass in essentially the same way one would plane a board's edge and keep it square to the face. Sand, check with machinist's square, sand, check with machinists's square, on down the line.
I have never fretted over the sole being 90o to the sides, as long as it is reasonable, when using a shooting board I adjust the blade untill it is cutting at 90o.
If the sides are parallel and only out of true by a small amount you could place more pressure on one side during the flattening process.
If you really have to have the sole and sides at 90o ( and assuming machines are not an option ) then you will have to set the sole at 90o to the paper either by making a fence to slide the sole against, or by sticking shims on the sides untill the sole is vertical, so you can sand back the sides untill you have a sufficient section square to the sole to work from. Neither of which is easy, but if you have the time patience and desire to improve your skill set the former option is probably the best bet.
& TaunTon,
Probably my anality showing. :-)
I've always had a concern for chasing that 1/64th all over the place.
Thanks,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
An unfortunate diversion is most of this garbage...
nothing wrong with seeking perfection.
Hi Bob
Some years ago I restored a battered Stanley #62 to excellent user status. One of the uses it was put to was on the shooting board. It was subsequently replaced in this department by a LV LA Jack. But at the time it was my go-to plane for the shooting board. Consequently, I wanted the sides and sole to be a perfect 90 degrees.
I took a photo at the time. The quality is not great. Hopefully you can see enough detail. Essentially it involved running the sole of the plane against a table saw fence while similtaneously lapping the sides on sandpaper-on-glass.
View Image
The finished plane (just for show) ...
View Image
Regards from Perth
Derek
derek,
Nice! Now why didn't I think of that, duh on me.
Hey, how much ya want for the #62? She's a beaut!
Regards,Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Given a convex sole, how do you flatten it such that you end up with an entire sole 90° to the sides? I think there's an assumption here that the sole, although convex, starts off square to the sides.If such an assumption were found to be true, some simple checking with a trusted square during the process I recommend could easily keep things "on track"However, if the two sides aren't parallel to each other (clearly a desired property of the final result), extra complexity is required, where all 3 surfaces (2 sides and a sole) may need "work". BugBear
Edited 7/3/2008 10:22 am ET by bugbear
BugBear,
I think there's an assumption here that the sole, although convex, starts off square to the sides.
Jeeeesh, another which came first........ Great points, especially parallel sides. I feel a bit like a do do bird after seeing dereks pic. I had a #5 that had a convex sole (not outrageously so but enough for a small rocking) and had it squared by a machinst friend of mine.
Regards,
Bob @ Kidderville Acres
A Woodworkers mind should be the sharpest tool in the shop!
Edited 7/3/2008 11:29 am ET by KiddervilleAcres
This forum post is now archived. Commenting has been disabled