Flat vs Smooth and Hand Planes and ROS
Haven’t posted anything in a while, so I thought I’d just write and say hello!
So, I’m curious, do most of you knot-heads (term of endearment) stick to one form of smoothing tools or do you just use a combination to get the job done?
I’ve been working on the top for a dining table that I’m building. It’s rather large, almost 4′ x 8′. It’s made up of 7 x 6.5″ boards. It’s finally glued up and not to mention, heavy!
I started on the bottom first, kind of a practice run. Flattening the bottom of the top was quite the challenge. I used my brand new LV Bevel Up Jointer plane, Number 4 LN smoother, and Bosch ROS hooked up to my shop vacuum. The reason I switched to the ROS was that I have the arm strength of a tyrannosaur and was exhausted and … I didn’t trust myself with getting it done with the hand plane.
One thing that I did realize, is that smooth is more important than absolute flat.
Replies
How I finish
I smooth wood in the same manner - Many times doing the bulk of the work with a hand plane, and switching over to a RO sander at the last moment, just to bring everything to the same level of appearence. The hand planes will take a bunch of time off your sanding.
RO sanders for smoothing only not flattening
I have not worked on a top as large as yours. If I were, I'd make it in two halves and flatten them before gluing them together to make the full size top. This way, I'd only have to lean over a much narrower top, and only one seam has to be smoothed when the top is full size.
I always use a guided cutting tool to flatten a top, with a plane being the best tool, but sometimes the grain and species dictate a scraper plane. What looks flat in raw wood, might not under a finish in raking light. A random orbit sander just can't be relied on to flatten precisely enough. If the top can be finished with only the hand plane, I will hand sand with 320 grit paper just prior to finishing to remove handling marks. If the top features inlays or required scraping, I will use the RO sander, but I never use paper more coarse than 180. I really prefer to start with 220 grit paper.
Rob Millard
http://www.americanfederalperiod.com
http://www.rlmillard.typepad.com
I did at least glue of the boards in stages, but didn't flatten them that way since I wasn't sure what would happen when I put the last two pieces together. I thought that I might get inconsistent thicknesses of the glue ups as I went along the flattening stage of the boards. Wouldn't that happen?
A scraper plane would have been nice, but I don't have one (yet). I noticed a little gouging on one knotty area. Luckily this was on the bottom. Currently I'm trying to flatten the top of the top. My LV bevel up jointer plane has an effective 50 degree angle so it's a little slower, but seems to tame tear out with light passes. Also, I've switched to jointing the top at a 45 degree angle to the table instead of across the grain.
Currently I'm being hampered by a small hole that I'm trying to fill with colored slow slow slow SLOW drying epoxy. I'm on my second fill as I got an air bubble in the hole that left a hole!
Flattening
I have the probably similar LN bevel up jointer. Because I wanted to use for just this type of situation I bought the plane with the toothed blade and two additional blades, The toothed blade is used to level, then the 25 deg bevel or 50 deg bevel blade to finish. Denab at Lie Nielsen wrote an excellent article on using the bevel up with toothed blade in I think PW last year. You might be able to get a reference from LN and order the article from the publisher.
I saw the toothed blade from Lee Valley, I just decided that I'd make do with the non-toothed blades. I just decided to draw the line at spending money on plane blades for this project. So does the toothed blade make it easier to flatten and does it really lessen tear out?
Rob Millard I know you are a fine woodworker...
I know you are a fine woodworker...A class way out of my 'finewoodworking'. However, I wonder why you posted this?
I only say this because during a glue-up many unexpected things happen!
.. You said.. If I were, I'd make it in two halves and flatten them before gluing them together to make the full size top...
I would think if something happened during glue-up or while the glue dried.. Distaster... It happens sometimes. Now you still have to 'surface' one side to match the other?
I live in the Chicago area and the weather can change from high humidity to bone dry in a hour or two depending on the wind factor. I work in a non-air conditioned shop (like a small garage)..
I never do anything to flatten untill the glue has dried for a day or two...
I am wrong many times....
EDIT: I saw in your post..
... but sometimes the grain and species dictate a scraper plane.
I have a Lee Valley scraper plane. Not used very often by me but it is wonderful tool on large surfaces.
WillGeorge,
I really don't know what can go wrong while the glue dries. When I prepare stock for gluing, it is flattened using winding sticks and a straightedge. Well flattened stock goes together effortlessly without surprises and will require very little planing to flush up the joints. I think this attention to flattening, is why I never need cauls. I may occasionally need to use my knee or thumb to move a board flush while clamping, but those adjustments are on the order of 1/64th -1/32th..
I too live and work where the shop conditions change frequently, but I only wait overnight to flatten a glued panel. I have planed panels the same day, but that was for dust boards and drawer bottoms, not tops. I wait only because of the slight swelling at the joints from the moisture, which if planed too soon can leave a tell tale depression at the joint. I really don't even need to do this anymore, because hot hide glue doesn't appear to do this like PVA glue I used previously.
I may be influenced by my focus on period furniture, which has very rough interiors, but I wouldn't care if the bottom side didn't match perfectly. In fact, I have smooth planed just the perimeter on the underside of tops, leaving the center where it is hidden by the aprons only scrub planed.
Another advantage of flattening the top in 2 halves, is a 4" wide top presents a large potential for cupping, which would make flattening just that much more difficult By doing it in two sections you halve that potential. The only real difficulty I see, is getting a good glue joint on a "board" that long and wide. Depending on its thickness, I'd do the standard procedure of planing both at the same time, with them clamped face to face, so any deviation from square is cancelled out. If they were too thick for that, then it would require some careful planing with frequent checks for fit along the length of the joint and too see the faces lie the same plane. When doing this, I like to leave one half clamped in the vise and balance the other on it. This will readily show any deviation from flat
Rob Millard
http://www.americanfederalperiod.com
http://www.rlmillard.typepad.com
I believe that I got some bowing/cupping from clamping some of the boards. Either that or they weren't as square and true as I thought they were. Or more likely both!
I've heard that a jointer or jack planes can be pushed backwards for scraping, I read that about the HNT Gordon plane, which has a fairly steep angle blade. Interesting cocept anyway.w
I use pretty much the same method as you do. There are people who like the look and feel of a hand planed top that has slight irregularities left by the plane, but I've found most people prefer a smooth top.
Jim
I just went through the same experience with a 4x8 zebra wood top.
I have a LN #8 and used it to plane across the grain, I tried going on an angle and it was disastrous. no matter how sharp or tight i set the mouth of the plane the only way i could go was 90 degrees across the grain. Apparently I did not sand enough with the orbital, when i started to apply the finish the more coats i built up the more i was able to see the hand planning tracks.
I ended up sanding all the finish off with orbital up to 180 grit , then i took a flat block of hard maple about 14" and used it with 100 grit to block sand , this showed me all the highs and lows that i could not see when the finish was removed. the rest was just pure grunt work with the block and hand scrapers and finally finishing with the orbitals.. Just wiped on the third coat and it looks much better when the light rakes over it.
tom
14" Jointer Sanding Block!
Wow, sounds like a lot of work... but time well spent!
I'm wondering why you couldn't go at a 45-degree angle with the Jointer Plane? It's very slow going, but seems to be working for me. After the Jointer Plane, did you go straight to the ROS? I guess I don't yet know how badly the high low spots will show on the table top. I'm not close to having the top flat yet. I like your use of the 14" Jointer sandpaper block, but was hoping to avoid the volumes of dust from the sanding block
On the bottom side of the top I cut at 90-degrees and then went with the grain to smooth the 90-degree marks. Then I used a smoother no. 4 for some of the smoothing and finally hit it with a sander starting at 100-grit through 220-grit (I continued through to 220 just because I like the feel). I've been checking with a straight edge as best as I can, it's only a 24-inch steel straight edge.
BTW: It all seems to be pure grunt work. The Jointer Plane is slow going as I'm gun shy on gouging the top, not to mention that thing is heavy!
Must have cost a fortune
gofigure57,
The lumber alone for that top must have cost a fortune. I have only used zebra wood as veneer, but I'd like to try solid wood.
Rob Millard
http://www.americanfederalperiod.com
http://www.rlmillard.typepad.com
Hand planing
I like the Bosch power planer with carbide blades to do the initial work, then hand planes, and scrapers to finish.
I hadn't really tought of the
I hadn't really tought of the power planer. On my Bosch planer, the bed is really short, it seems like it would ride in the valleys instead of flattening. Also, more importantly, I wouldn't have been able to justify a jointer plane!
I'll take my planes as far as I can
... Then switch to either hand sanding or using a random orbit sander or finishing sander. I will at least use planes to level the surface, then often to smooth the surface. Sanding is good for creating a uniform surface. Using a hand plane is really fun and satisfying for me.
What kind of wood is you dining table, and how thick is the top?
It's a cherry table top and
It's a cherry table top and 1.5 inches thick but getting thinner as I slowly plane it. When I planed the bottom, I went a little too aggressive at 90-degrees and had some gouges and tear out. I did like how the ROS gave a consistent surface, and I think it's flat enough for a good finish, especially for the bottom side.
As I slowly work the top, I notice that some of the glue ups must have bowed some boards at the joints when I was clamping them. It's slow going because it's now the weekday and I only get an hour or so to plane each day. They are very light passes as I'm afraid of gouging the top, I'm in no rush. Also, I've been trying to fill a small hole with slow drying West Systems epoxy, but a small bubble and an unfilled pin hole sized spot has caused some delays too.
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