Hello everyone – I recently joined this forum and I’ve learned a lot already especially to do with building a workshop. My ‘dream’ w/s is under construction now, actualy it is a conversion of a farm hay barn. The first (ground) floor is made of stone blocks 15″ thick but my query is to do with the second floor which is a wooden ‘A’ frame type of construction. What I would like to ask is if anyone has experience of treating the wooden beams and the floor and roof with any type of material to reduce fire risk???
A long time ago I thought I read about something that could be used but I don’t know if it ever came on the market. BTW what is a ‘Gambrel’ roof, is it an ‘A’ frame with vertical sides???
Any advice will be most appreciated.
Replies
Have you considered something like Laquer... That stuff can't be flammible, can it?
Derek
You could use intumescent paint to protect the timber against the spread of flame.
IanDG
Ian, Thanks, deep in what passes for my brain I think the term 'intumescent' was lurking:-) Problem might be getting hold of some in Czech Republic - I might try contacting the firm to see if they sell it in Europe 'tho.
I've used it on a commercial project in UK -- pre-EU days.
IanDG
Losos -
There are, as has been suggested, paints that offer a modicum of fire retardation. They can't, in my opinion be classified as true fire proofing and most "fire proofing" coatings really aren't - they slow or retard the start of combustion and/or spread of flames.
Intumescent paints and finishes will create a foam like coating when subjected to high temperatures thus offering some degree of protection to the substrate. For perhaps a cheaper solution if the aesthetics aren't an issue would be to sheath the underside of the framing with two layers of 1/2" gypsum board which will provide what's refered to as a 1 hour separation or protection. Meaning that in theory a fire could burn in the space below for an hour before the structure is compromised. That doesn't factor in the floor material, of course - it would have to be protected as well.
A gambrel roof has two pitches on each side of the ridge. It starts at the spring line or plate at a fairly steep pitch then changes to a lesser pitch about midway in the span of the roof.
From Beautiful Skagit Co. Wa.
Dennis
Actually, like Dennis said a retardant that will slow down the path of the flames. But fireproof for wood, no such thing. Wood will burn down to the ground. But Dennis suggested 1/2" drywall. Well, should be double 5/8" drywall that will slow the path of a flame for more than an hour. 1/2" drywall will only slow it down for less than half an hour. Steel framing will be good material, if you ever decide to redo your barn. IN your area I really don't know, but in NYC we use a fiberboard which is approved by the Fire department as a fire retardant VH-1, and A1 for ceilings and soffits. Material are hard to work with. We installed them in five different schools in the NYC area this past summer. Double on that material and 5/8" drywall and steel framing that will hold back the fire until the school is evacuated for at least 2 hours.
Hi, While fire retatdant approaches can gain up to 2 hours, why not consider fire extingiushing systems. Sprinkler systems can be affordable and very effective and can be installed in heated or non heated structures. Note, sprinkler heads activate one at a time due to temp rating being exceeded, not all at once. Bob
Sprinklers system are great to extinguish fire in certain locations. Depends how the system are installed. Here in NYC sprinklers are installed in a manner that once one activates they all activate even if a room is not affected. Sprinklers are very expensive to install. Plumbers are the only person licensed to install sprinkler system, it is a building code. But depends where you reside at. By using the drywall and fiberboard it will reduce the urgency if getting out of the building safely. Tests were made and approved as the proper procedure to secure public safety. If any thing, I would replace the shell with commercial grade 18 gauge steel framing.
Thanks for all the info, I think that drywall is probably the best solution, but if I can get hold of that paint I might try that as well. I will have a fire alarm system fitted (I used to be involved in these many years ago) I think a sprinkler system will be outside my budget but the house is less than 100 yards from the barn so Ill be practicing my 100 yard sprint carrying a suitable size extinguisher:-)
Try all possibilities, maybe you may also like to checkout the Fire Department for the sprinkler system to get their perspective. They carry the Large fire extinguisher that is provided for restaurants. Try that whenever you get a chance and what is the best possible solution and cost effectiveness of the sprinkler system. Shop around for different prices and security issues that will best protect your barn.
Bravo659 - Yes, I have to contact the fire Department because I'm planning to install a small central heating boiler and my insurer has said that there must be a brick chimney installed and approved by the Fire Dept. - That's another reason for my thoughts turning to fire protection. I'll post up what they say and also if I do decide to go with a sprinkler system - Better go and check my budget again now:-)
That's good to hear. You are taking the right steps and precaution. Let me know what they said about the chimney and fireproofing. Im curious about how the fire department regulations in your end. I already know the regulations in NYC. Just want to compare if there is any differences.
I have this sort of issue myself in the barn and this old house. I think that fire suppression (sprinkers) is a good approach, but only if all the vulnerable spaces are also protected. The most vulnerable space is between the studs on the sides and the siding on the outside and the inside wall (that is, where the wiring is). If this has fire blocking and fireproof insulation, it will not carry or hold fire. If it doesn't, each space will be a chiminey that carries fire to the roof and you may be hard pressed to get out in time.
Pay attention to all your spaces, make the interior fire retardant with dry wall, sprinkle, and clean up every day. AND, put those watco saturated rags outside in the middle of the driveway with a rock holding them down until they cure.
Yes, I agree with you. That's why the best approach is the sprinkler system, that is the reason also I would replace the wood framing to steel framing at least 20 gauge with fire blocking. Here in NYC according to the building code to suppress fire is to be equipped with a sprinkler system, all framing must use double 5/8 " drywall, or a fiberboard (5/8"), approved by the Fire Department which is VH1 to be installed with a 5/8" drywall and the sprinkler system. This will contain the fire in one place until the premises are cleared. Steel framing are made out of galvanized steel.
Telemiketoo - Thanks for the good advice, the area I'm concened with is not yet divided up into 'rooms' it was used to store hay & straw and is just a 100 x 30 foot open area, so I will take care to avoid enclosed areas that can turn into 'chimnies' when I come to divide it up. Drywall, fire extinguishers, sprinklers (At least if there are going to be enclosed spacers) and like you say good housekeeping.
I am wondering about your concern with fire.
If you build to code, practice good housekeeping (especially with finishing materials/supplies), and maintain a good state of maintenance, why should your shop be any more prone to accidental fire than any other structure?
Having said that, I will add that your barn sounds like a good old structure. Those stone walls suggest to me that you have a nice timber frame. If I were particularly worried about fire, I would go with sprinklers instead of covering up the frame. Also, if you're isolated/rural, use a foam system instead of sprinklers and add a monitored security system with fire alarms.
Patrick - Yes, it's a good 'old' structure (Built around 1920) the upper (2nd.) floor has some massive wood beams supporting the roof, the floor is wood, and here in Czech Republic a roof system known as 'Eternit' is used which is square (thin) tiles laid on a wood plank underlay. so all in all there's a heck of a lot of wood up there:-( Amazingly there's only minor worm infestation which I've been treating with Cuprinol (A UK product) This I believe is flammable, and it was while treating those small areas that I got to thinking about fire protection & hence my question.
Losos
It is a bit of a conundrum. My workshop is steel framed & clad but with around 4 tonnes of timber inside in the form of benches, stock, partial & completed work, I believe that if I had a relatively serious fire then the steel structure would buckle & collapse long before an equivilent timber structure burnt through.
This one for the engineers but in the mean time I think I'll work out what I'd save if the unspeakable does happen.
Don
Don - and find the insurance policy, oh, good - it's still valid:-)
I am a call firefighter in Bolton, MA (small town in central Mass.). We recently had a barn/house fire that was caused by faulty florescent ballasts. Check the picture on our website of what was left (http://www.boltonfire.com).
Sprinklers are definetly the way to go. I don't know how the departments in the Czech, but here there are standpipes that we use to feed a sprinkler system if it needs to be supplemented. Also, most sprinkler systems are activated one head at a time. Schools use multi head systems because they have a higher life hazard than most buildings.
Lastly, gypsum should be hung so that the joints of the second layer are offset from the first. This helps to ensure the fire doesn't breach the barrier through a jointline.
Hope this info is helpful. Let us know what your local fire dept says.Jim
Coventry Woodworking
Jim - Great point about the Drywall sheets being offset - I hadn't thought about that! - I will post up the results of our local fire service advice for you & Bravo 659 but it maybe a few weeks from now before they come here. 'Customer service' is a phrase which has only recently entered the language and there are still elements of the pre 1992 regime around:-(
My former neighbor, a big-city firefighter, told me that drywall/sheetrock was the best cheap fire protection you can get. Sprinklers of course are great if you can allocate the funds.
The other obvious thing is to eliminate sources of ignition. No smoking in the shop, just like a hay barn. No storage of oil-soaked rags. And be careful of a metal particle hitting the blades of the dust collector, and starting a fire in the collected sawdust. Keep sawdust accumulation off lamp fixtures, or anything else that gets hot. Make sure wiring is rodent-proof.
Edited 10/11/2004 6:30 pm ET by BarryO
You are correct about the steel frame not holding up well in a fire, and quite possibly failing sooner than a wood frame.
In either type of structure, a sheetrock wall, properly installed, would protect the framing for an hour or more and prevent the fire from spreading to adjoining areas giving you a chance to get the fire under control and prevent a total loss of the building.
John W.
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