Replies

1. 
   jackplane | Aug 09, 2004 08:56pm | #1

   Any of the finishes you mentioned will work fine.

   Most likely, the cloudy finish resulted from excessive humidity,so avoid finishing when the humidity is 70-75 % or more.

1. 
   ABenker | Aug 09, 2004 09:09pm | #2

   I use waterlox exclusively on Walnut furniure, it is a tung oil product; however it is a wipe on product and does take about 6-7 coats to build, I'm sure there are other good tung/varnish mixtures, but i have found nothing else that shows off walnut as well as waterlox (in my opinion). I did try spraying waterlox on several book cases and had mixed results. I guess i wouldn't recommend spraying it. If you want to spray your cabinets look into solvent based laquers or conversion varnish. I think any of the waterbased will cloud your finish. However a base coat of shellac does help dramatically if you want to use a water based finish on Walnut. The waterbased are the easiest to spray and the safest.

   Aaron

1. 
   jackplane | Aug 09, 2004 09:38pm | #3

   Perhaps you meant address lefty, but since it's me I'll respond.

     Waterbased finishes will not, repeat not clooud your finish. They appear cloudy when applied, but dry clear, clearer actually than regular poly with its amber tone.

    Shellac doesn't matter one way or the other if poly or waterbased poly is used. Shellac can be helpful when coating an oily wood,or on its own like french-polishing.

   Conversion varnish is sold almost exclusively to industrial shops and requires special safety equipment.

     I agree that Waterlox is an excellent product.

1. 
   GeoA | Aug 10, 2004 05:06pm | #5

   I'm also doing new kitchen cabinets, and I've been told that pre-catalyzed lacquer is a bit more user friendly than conversion varnish in that it has a longer pot life, and only slightly less durable.  Does anyone have experience with either of these finishes?

1. 
   Paul_Snyder | Aug 12, 2004 01:28am | #14

   George,

   I use these finishes a lot. Pre-cat lacquer has a "pot" life of 6-12 months while conversion varnish (CV) has a pot life of 8-12 hours. Both are easy to spray, though the CV is more finicky about the weather conditions.

   The CV is quite a bit more durable than the lacquer (both pre- and post-catalyzed); almost to the point of overkill in many situations (in my opinion). Pre-cat is plenty durable for kitchen and bath cabinets, though starting with a vinyl sealer is recommended to improve the water vapor resistance of the final finish. I like the finishes from Chemcraft (.com) if you're looking for a recommendation.

   An important consideration for kitchen and bath cabinets is to finish all the wood, including door bottoms, the same. Sealing all the surfaces keeps excessive moisture from causing premature failure of the finish.

   If you use one of these finishes, follow the safety guidelines in the material safety data sheet (MSDS). Plenty of ventilation and the proper respirator are a must.

   Paul

   Furniture Finish Wizard

2. 
   BG | Aug 12, 2004 03:28am | #15

   Paul S,

   Can I ask a couple of questions about your Waterlox experience? I finished a piece (Shaker style desk) about 10 days ago with 5-6 coats of Waterlox Orginal.  I debating about rubbing it out this weekend.  It looks beautiful but a bit shiny..if I rub out with 600 grit and then 1000 grit will I get a less shiny with the same depth or will the depth be lost?

   Second, I am in the middle of finishing another piece and I thinking of a Waterlox top with a lacquer base (two draw verticle file).  The finish steps include a Trans Tint wash followed by BLO with TT...then shellac and the lacquer/Waterlox....the waterlox is a bit amber and I'm worried the color of the finish won't match?  

3. 
   Paul_Snyder | Aug 13, 2004 12:50am | #20

   BG,

   Those grits are too coarse for sheen adjustment. A better approach would be to use 0000 steel wool to knock the shine down to a satin. You will lose a little bit of the clarity/depth since you are basically putting very fine scratches in the finish; but not so much to be a problem in most cases. Combining the steel wool rub with a coat of paste wax is another way to cut the sheen; just don't use a gloss wax.

   Waterlox does have a warm amber color that lacquer lacks. I'd add a little dye to one of the coats of lacquer to warm it up a little; along the lines of a 1/2 ounce of Transtint Golden Brown mixed in a quart of lacquer. To keep the color coat very thin, you can thin the lacquer 8 ounces lacquer mixed with 24 ounces lacquer thinner and then add the dye. Spray the colored lacquer (toner) over a coat of clear lacquer and then spray a coat of clear over the color coat. Mix up a real small batch and test the color on a sample before you commit.

   Sounds like you're keeping pretty busy with some nice work!

   Paul

   Furniture Finish Wizard

4. 
   BG | Aug 13, 2004 01:46am | #22

   Paul S,

   Thanks so much for the info.  I'll hit the desk with the steel wool and maybe some Watco satin wax...that should do the trick.

   For the vertical file I'll experiment with some Trans Tint , lacquer and lacquer thinner...I brush on the lacquer, I'm assuming that makes no difference?  I have a few scraps that are currently at the same spot in the process as the piece ...so I can experiment with them.  I think I can get the color close to the Waterlox orginal.

5. 
   Paul_Snyder | Aug 13, 2004 02:13am | #23

   BG,

   Brushing toner (colored finish) is likely to give you uneven coloring since the coat has to be almost perfectly even. Try a large sample and see how it comes out; with just a little dye (1/4 - 1/2 ounce) in the finish and by laying down a quick wet coat of thinned, colored lacquer you can keep the problems to a minimum.

   The safest solution I can think of is to use either the varnish or the lacquer on the whole cabinet or just let there be a little difference in the top and the rest of the cabinet.

   Paul

   Furniture Finish Wizard

6. 
   BG | Aug 13, 2004 02:52am | #24

   Paul S,

   Thanks again...I'll try some lacquer and Waterlox straight on the sample scraps ...see what kind of difference appears.  Even if I don't add any tint, the sides would be lacquer and the top and drawer fronts Waterlox...so its not really putting the two finishes side by side...except for the bit of wood around the drawer fronts.  I'm not sure I mentioned this but the piece is made from red, white and brown oak...which is fairly well blended now...but, wood is wood...lol

7. 
   BG | Aug 14, 2004 01:25pm | #25

   Paul S,

   You probably know this...but the steel wool and satin wax worked like a charm on the shaker/mission desk.  I'm mentioning this because I did not think it would when first applied....but in the end it was perfect...thanks.

   For the vertical file and insuring a fairly good match in color between Waterlox top and lacquer on the carcas, I made it easy on myself and hit the carcas with a second coat of BLO with some Trans Tint ..a bit (tiny bit)darker than the first coat...

8. 
   Paul_Snyder | Aug 15, 2004 03:45am | #26

   That's great BG! Glad it turned out well. :)

   That's a good idea you had about using the oil to add a little color. What color dye did you use and what ratio?

   Paul

   Furniture Finish Wizard

9. 
   BG | Aug 15, 2004 05:16am | #27

   Paul S,

   Gees...I hate to give up my secret concocktions..a novice might think I know what I'm talking about.  Your a professional so it safe but let's not forget to change our password from time to time.

   Anyhow...using an empty premium jelly jar...the orginal color was 8 drops of Trans Tint Reddish Brown to 2 caps full (jelly jar cap) of BLO, shake.  I then changed that to 10 drops to 2 cap fulls of BLO for the second application....not much difference but a bit richer...  

10. 
    GeoA | Aug 12, 2004 05:26pm | #17

    Paul,

    Many thanks for your response and recommendations.   I'll give Chemcraft a try.  It looks like they're available at Frazee.

    George

11. 
    Paul_Snyder | Aug 13, 2004 12:51am | #21

    Gald to help George. Good luck!Paul

    Furniture Finish Wizard

12. 
    SEBDESN | Aug 12, 2004 04:04am | #16

    I just built a kitchen with pre cat lacquer. The stuff is bullet proof.Goes on great, and is really durable. I took a test door and put a puddle of water on it, while it was flat on the table. The puddle dried and left no trace of it except for the solids in the water, that wiped off...I used M L Campbell... Make sure you have a good mask with the proper filters for it !!

    Oh the original question, Its dead clear...

13. 
    GeoA | Aug 12, 2004 05:30pm | #18

    Sounds like the right stuff to use; it also sounds like reading the MSDS would be a good place to start...

2. 
   ABenker | Aug 12, 2004 12:28am | #10

   Jackplane,

   My experience with waterbased finishes were with Furh 355, which is a great product, but when applied directly over any dark wood it leaves a milky white cast. My understanding is that waterbased (water molecules) are too large to penetrate the cells of wood like solvent based finishes leaving a cloudy finish. By using a base coat of shellac, you acheive the wet look of a solvent. This technicque was recommended by Jeff over at Homestead Finishing and worked very well. I did several sample boards and the difference was quite noticiable. I also tinted the waterbased varnish slightly with transtint which made the milky white less noticiable. What water finishes are you using, I would be interested in finding one that does not have the milky white cast?

   Aaron

1. 
   Paul_Snyder | Aug 12, 2004 01:15am | #13

   Aaron,

   The milky cast was one of the problems I had with the Fuhr water-based finishes that caused me to look for something better. I switched to Target Coatings (.com) and have been happy with their finishes. They have a couple finishes that compare to the Fuhr varnish (355); the Super-Clear Poly and the Conversion Varnish. I haven't tried their Polycarbonate Urethane (too pricey for me), but it's their top of the line product.

   If you'd like a moderate duty water-based finish with exceptional clarity and rub-out capability, the Ultima Spray Lacquer is the way to go. I use it on almost everything with good results. I only use one of the more durable finishes when a customer specifies it.

   Paul

   Furniture Finish Wizard

2. 
   jackplane | Aug 12, 2004 09:15pm | #19

   All the waterbased finishes I use/used have a milky color when applied. But they all dry clear. None of them are considered penetrating finsh as they sit on the surface of the wood.

   I usually use a Benjamin Moore waterbased finish when the job is spec'd for a waterbase. Otherwise, I prefer a high gloss lacquer, mostly.

   Edited 8/12/2004 2:48 pm ET by JACKPLANE

2. 
   Alan | Aug 10, 2004 02:39am | #4

   Lefty,

   Because you are growing your own, you have lots of little cut-offs, scrap, and who knows what other pieces of that expensive walnut just lying around.  So...

   Experiment!

   That's what those pieces of walnut are for.  They're not good for anything else.  You can always burn them later.

   Try everything you think you might want to use.  Try stains, and dyes, and shellac, and....  Take your experiments all the way through whatever finishing regimen you might use.  On the back of each one use an indelible felt-tip pen to write exactly what you did (DAMHIKT).  Then see which one you like best--include in your appraisal the ease of application, cost, time necessary, etc.

   BTW, I save all my experiments.  They're a great resource.  What isn't practical on this project may be the bees' knees for the next.

   Alan

3. 
   CharlieP | Aug 11, 2004 08:54pm | #6

   I love walnut, but haven't been able to get enough good stuff recently.  So count yourself lucky.

   I used to stain Walnut, and still do if someone wants a really dark walnut, but the prettiest grain is when the wood is left natural.  Most people don't like the sapwood, so the primary time I use stain or dye is to hide the sapwood.

   My current favorite process is to use nitrocellulose lacquer.  Some experts talked me out of the harder catalyzed lacquer because it is more difficult to repair, as well as harder to apply and rub out. 

   First step is to brush in lacquer-based sanding sealer - it fills the pores and is very easy to sand.  It is soft, so you should sand most of it off the surface (if no stain, no problem if you sand to the wood - the pores will still be filled). 

   Then spray several coats of lacquer.  I like to thin it to make spraying easier, but that means I need more coats.  It dries so fast that the overspray is dust before it hits the ground - I often spray only 10 feet away from my cars.   Only sand between coats to remove sins like bugs, dust, or drools.  Use a few percent retarder if the humidity is high to avoid clouding.  All coats except the last should be gloss, since the non-gloss finishes have an additive that clouds the finish. 

   If you are building a furniture quality cabinet, let the final coat dry extra hard (a couple days instead of an hour or two), then rub it out.  I use 320 or finer sandpaper to gently level, if required, then 0000 steel wool, then a cotton sock, to produce semi-gloss finish from gloss lacquer.  If you are doing a whole kitchen, you might want to let the finish rather than the rubbing determine the final gloss - use a satin or semi-gloss lacquer for the final coat - whatever matches your desired finish. 

   Lacquer is my choice, but only one of many choices for cabinets - other people will have good suggestions too (I don't want to start the war on lacquer vs. varnish vs. poly vs. oil vs. shellac.....) 

   ________________________
   Charlie Plesums  Austin, Texas
   http://www.plesums.com/wood

1. 
   nikkiwood | Aug 11, 2004 09:22pm | #7

   Re: Waterlox finishes

   Which one of their products do you use -- especially if you are looking for a soft, satin sheen typical of oil finishes.

   I bought and used some one of the Waterlox finishes years ago and thought it was terrible. But you, and a lot of others around here extoll its virtues, and I'd like to give it another try.

   Thanks.

1. 
   bill_1010 | Aug 11, 2004 10:15pm | #8

   for durability use the high gloss over the sealer.   Build up your coats and then rub out to the desired sheen. 

2. 
   ABenker | Aug 12, 2004 12:19am | #9

   I personally use the orignial sealer (red can) for all coats (generally 5-6 coats sanding between each with 600 grit). I generally apply it libarally with a rag let it sit for 15 minutes and then wipe off with a clean rag. I haven't tired the gloss. If you are looking for low sheen you can try the Satin. However, the satin has a very short self life, so only buy enough product that can be used within a few weeks of opening. The satin (green can) gels up very quickly and be sure to squeeze out any excess air from the container. What about it didn't you like the first time that you tried it? It definelty doesn't build quickly, it is a wipe on varnish.  

   Hope this helps

   Aaron

4. 
   Kell | Aug 12, 2004 12:39am | #11

   lefty,

   I'm doing some cabinets in walnut and have just discovered General Finishes Arm R Seal.  In satin, it looks terrific!  It's also easy to apply.  Don't know about protection but it appears to have the feel of an oil with at least some of the protection of a urethane.

   Kell

5. 
   Paul_Snyder | Aug 12, 2004 01:08am | #12

   If you want to keep the sapwood light, don't use a stain or dye; though a diluted walnut colored dye does a very nice job of popping the grain & figure in walnut.

   For durability in a hand applied finish, varnish is your best option. Oil and varnish/poly blends (e.g., danish oil, antique oil, etc.) are less durable than straight varnish. There's a chart that compares the properties of different finishes at this link - Finishes Compared. Polyurethane varnish rates tops in the durability categories. Varnishes are a reactive finish. They cure by chemical reaction, oxygenation, moisture, and UV exposure. Once a reactive finish has cured, it can't be dissolved by the thinner (mineral spirits or naphtha); much stronger solvents like paint & varnish stripper are needed.

   All varnishes have one thing in common - they are based on a vegetable oil. The oils used in different varnishes include linseed oil, soybean (soya) oil, tung oil, safflower oil, oiticica oil, and perilla oil. The oil is cooked with one of the resins that combines them chemically to produce a liquid that dries to form a durable film. The resin used to make the varnish, and the percentage of oil compared to resins, are the key factors in its durability.

   The three most common varnish resins; phenolic, alkyd, and urethane; have different properties. Phenolic resin was developed first, in 1909, and is made with phenol and formaldehyde. When phenolic resins are combined with tung oil, it makes a varnish that has superior water resistance, good hardness, exceptional flexibility and good alkali, grease and UV resistance. Spar varnishes are made with these ingredients and are good for exterior use because of their flexibility and UV resistance. As the wood expands and contracts with the temperature changes, the varnish doesn't crack and it protects the wood from the sun better than other varnishes.

   Alkyd resin, developed in the 1920s, are less expensive than phenolic resins and not quite as durable. "Alkyd" is a contraction of alcohol and acid, the two main ingredients that are combined to make this resin (a type of polyester). Once cooked with an oil to make alkyd varnish, it has good flexibility, very good abrasion resistance and adhesion, and moderate moisture resistance. There are many brands of alkyd varnish and they come in a variety of colors from almost clear to a deep amber depending on the oil used.

   Polyurethane resin, developed in the 1930s, is made by combining alkyd and urethane resins (also called "uralkyd," a contraction of urethane and alkyd). Polyurethane dries and cures faster than the other varnishes and is more heat, scratch, and moisture resistant. But it isn't very resistant to UV damage (unless it's specially formulated with UV additives). Polyurethane's abrasion resistance makes it a very popular finish. There are new types of polyurethane resins that no longer have the "plastic" appearance that the older versions were infamous for. Some of the better brands of poly use these resins, which cost more.

   A relatively new type of varnish, called fast drying varnish, uses styrene or vinyl toluene as the resin to produce a varnish that dries in about 30 minutes and can be re-coated in 1-3 hours. These varnishes are a little less durable than alkyd varnishes.

   Vanishes can also be categorized by the oil content compared to the amount of resins. They are known as very long oil, long oil, medium oil, and short oil. The oil ratio determines how flexible the varnish is, dry and curing time, and durability.

   Very long oil varnishes are 75% oil or more. "Danish oils, antique oil, etc." are in this category. They are a wiping finish that dries and cures slowly, have poor abrasion resistance, fair to good durability, good to excellent water and stain resistance, and are very flexible. They are not meant to be built up to form a film finish - rather an "in the wood" look. Not a good choice when a durable finish is needed, but a good choice when the wood and it's grain are the main focus of the piece. More info at this link - Varnish & Oil/Varnish Blends.

   Long-oil varnishes are 60% to 75% oil. Long oil varnishes are often used for exterior use, like spar varnish, in some fast dry wipe-on finishes, and in making oil-base paint. They dry faster than danish oils and have similar properties.

   Medium-oil varnishes are 45% to 60% oil. Most furniture varnishes are in this category. The resins used determine the main characteristics of the varnish.

   Short-oil varnishes are less than 45% oil and are typically thick, hard varnishes intended for interior use or to make very durable paint (like appliances).

   There are a number of good brands of varnish to choose from. Some of the choices include;

   Waterlox Original Wood Finish - Tung oil & phenolic resin interior varnish with exceptional durability (use to be marketed as a Gym Floor Finish). Rich amber color. Thinner than Behlen "RockHard" and can be brushed or wiped. FWIW, My personal favorite.

   Behlen RockHard Table Top Varnish - Phenolic resins and tung oil create a rich amber color that darkens with time. It's a short oil varnish that produces a hard finish that can be rubbed out much better than most varnishes.

   General Finishes' Arm-R-Seal - A blend of tung oil and alkyd and urethane resins. Has a medium amber color. It's the "tung oil" finish used by David Marks on his TV show; though it's really a nice looking wiping poly.

   Old Masters Super Varnish - An alkyd varnish with amber coloring. Dries pretty fast. Sands well and has low odor. Brushes well without thinning and like most varnishes, it can be used as a wiping varnish after thinning with naphtha or mineral spirits.

   Pratt & Lambert #38 - Alkyd varnish with light coloring like the new McCloskeys Heirloom. Good to retain the light color of white woods like maple.

   Daly's ProFin - A urethane and alkyd resin blend finish that dries hard and fast. Pale yellow color.

   Paul

   Furniture Finish Wizard