Replies

1. 
   forestgirl | Aug 21, 2003 08:13am | #1

   Just saw that you haven't gotten any replies yet.  Perhaps some of the info on the Weyerhauser web site will help.  Click here for pdf file with comparisons between lyptus and more commonly known woods.  Look like maybe you have to print it out to make the chart readable all the way across.

   You might want to try posting at Jeff Jewitt's forum to see if anyone has tried this wood yet.  Quotes from the Weyerhauser site include:

   "Rigorous testing has confirmed that Lyptus¯ can be worked in the same way and with the same equipment as other noble hardwoods.  It is receptive to all common types of finishing, including water and solution-based lacquers, various types of pigments, and oil and wax."

   and

   "In terms of density, strength and technical properties Lyptus¯ compares favorably with oak and beech.  In appearance it rivals cherry, alder and mahogany. "

   forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

1. 
   SeaTrader | Aug 22, 2003 12:20am | #2

   Thanks for your input.  Jeff"s the one who recommended I post on this site.  He thought Jon Arno might have info.

1. 
   forestgirl | Aug 22, 2003 03:02am | #3

   Too funny!  OK, I'll shoot Jon a note and see if he can help.  Hint for the future:  It's OKk to put Jon's name in the thread title if you're trying to get his attention, e.g., "JON:  info needed on lyptus" or some such thing.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

1. 
   jonsherryl | Aug 22, 2003 05:16pm | #7

   FG, I haven't worked with lyptus yet (I'm a bit embarrassed about that...but I just haven't seen it anywhere and haven't been getting out much, for health reasons)...But I can add this much:

   This new wonderwood is a eucalypt. It's different in that it's a hybrid, but both "mom" and "dad" are members of the Eucalyptus tribe. Hybrids often show exceptional vigor, so I have no reason to doubt trade claims that it could be a breakthrough cultivar that performs very well in a plantation setting...a true boon to forestry...and therefore a good thing.

   Also, its geneology would suggest that it probably wasn't born with any "original sin" when it comes to chemical extractives...in other words, being a thoroughbred eucalypt, it's doubtful that it harbors any seriously unfriendly chemistry, at least with respect to interfering with finishes...I mean, it's not like the ol' man was teak and mom was a rosewood...But being the little eucalypt that it is, it probably isn't the finest textured or most stable wood you're likely to find.

    Also, trade claims about it being the second coming of genuine mahogany are hard to take with a straight face...and thoroughly inconsistent with their other claims suggesting strength properties in the oak range...Now, for these two claims to fly in formation, you'd have to be gullible enough to believe in lead pigeons.

   And as for that copy line in your earlier post here about it being like other "noble" woods...well, that sounds like just a few more cubic meters of some noble gas seeping out of some ad agency somewhere. I've heard of the term "common" with respect to grading in the lumber business, but never "noble" (?)...Makes you wonder if maybe they didn't assign this project to the wrong Account Exec. Probably someone who was, unfortunately, better versed in peddling perfume to the high society crowd.

   ...Seriously, FG, I'm very receptive to the potential worth of lyptus and it may have all the attributes to rank as a fine cabinetwood in it's own right...but if it does, that would certainly be the more sincere way to promote it.

     

1. 
   Kevin | Aug 22, 2003 05:34pm | #10

   Also, trade claims about it being the second coming of genuine mahogany are hard to take with a straight face...and thoroughly inconsistent with their other claims suggesting strength properties in the oak range...Now, for these two claims to fly in formation, you'd have to be gullible enough to believe in lead pigeons

   LOL I'd definitely have to agree there. It's texture is such that it could be made to pass for Mahogany. But, close inspection would quickly reveal that it's not nearly porous enough to actually be Mahogany. From my conversation with a guy with Weyerhauser (the sole U.S. importer of Lyptus) it is only available in flat cut. Which means that the growth ring cathedrals are impossible to avoid without a judicious resawing campaign that would result in a bunch of kindling. If it were to be quarter sawn to avoid the cathedrals, it would much closer resemble Mahogany IMHO. Still... It's a nice looking wood that I intend to try to make look close enough to a stained Mahogany to satisfy whomever is making the decisions for the bank in Texas that my employer is trying to make happy. While I do have some real Mahogany on hand which I also intend to play with... Right now I'm leaning towards going with the Lyptus because the control sample I have to match is a closed-pore look. Lyptus' finer texture will make it easier to achieve an aproximation of that look without having to resort to actually filling the pores.

   The greatest thing since sliced bread it definitely is not IMO. But, it's got a legit niche to fill and I'm sure that it's popularity will increase.

   Regards,

   Kevin

2. 
   forestgirl | Aug 22, 2003 07:04pm | #12

   Hi Jon, thanks for pitching in here.  Love your "mom is this, dad is this" analogy, LOL! 

   I knew from looking at it during last trip to Edensaw that it's not a true mahogany lookalike, but was just waiting for someone to light into Weyerhauser for their fairytale marketing spew.

   Actually seems like it might be a good wood for making those outdoor X-chairs with.  Except, maybe, for the fact that it's plain sawn.  Wonder if they'll ever provide some quartersawn stock.  Also wonder if they might someday get growing rights to produce it in the US.  Would it grow well in the southern US?  I know eucalyptus grows in California, but doesn't seem like there's much land left there for forestry.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

3. 
   jonsherryl | Aug 22, 2003 08:00pm | #13

   FG, I haven't heard anything about the hardiness of this hybrid...and this is not a feature that would be entirely intuitive. The Eucalyptus genus is rather diverse. Some species have more cold tolerance than others.

   This hybrid appears to perform well in the tropics, but that doesn't define it as strictly "tropical." Some of our southern yellow pines are being used as plantation cultivars in the tropics and they are performing very well. The resulting wood (or at least the samples I've seen of these tropically grown pines) is entirely different than typical SYP. It looks almost like our North American white pine; i.e., low density, probably due to extremely rapid growth.

   ....So, maybe this Lyptus kid could make it in Dixie...but I doubt if the wood it would produce up here, even in our balmy south, would be the same.

2. 
   Kevin | Aug 22, 2003 05:23am | #4

   I just picked up some sample pieces of Lyptus for a pending bank job a few hours ago. This is the first time I've laid eyes on the stuff.

   What to tell....? Well, it has a decidedly pinkish hue which turns brownish red with oxidization. It's less porous and quite a bit heavier than South American Mahogany or African Mahogany. Although it definitely could pass for Mahogany with the right stain. Except for the color, it very much looks like Sapele, which is browner and not pinkish. Although Sapele is a bit more porous from what little I've seen of it.

   I'll be able to tell you more about how it accepts stain after I start in on my color matching tomorrow morning. But, based on what I've read, I don't anticipate any unusual problems with any aspect of finishing it. For the bank job I've got a control sample of some Knoll laminate-like product which is called "Mahogany" but which I believe is actually Luan or something in the same family as Luan. Anyway, I've got a piece each of Lyptus, Honduran Mahogany, and African Mahogany. So, anyone interested in how those three stack up against each other in terms of stain and finishing... ask me tomorrow. I have to have a finished match in the mail to Texas before I come home tomorrow.

   One last thing... You asked if it's oily, like Teak. No, it's not oily at all.

   Regards,

   Kevin

1. 
   SeaTrader | Aug 22, 2003 07:14am | #5

   Thanks for the timely info.  Will be waiting to hear how your samples come out.  You mention oxidization, would this indicate it contains tannin like oak or whatever is in cherry?

   Regard

   Rick

1. 
   Kevin | Aug 22, 2003 05:35pm | #11

   I don't believe that the Lyptus has any tannins in it. Jon Arno would be better able to answer that question. I think that it's much more like Cherry with regard to oxidization issues.

   Regards,

   Kevin

2. 
   jonsherryl | Aug 22, 2003 05:21pm | #8

   Kevin, are you and that girl into doing bank jobs now? :O)

1. 
   Kevin | Aug 23, 2003 12:44am | #16

   LOL

   How do you think we're financing the pending trip to Tahiti? <G>

   Regards,

   Kevin

3. 
   dondownunder | Aug 22, 2003 11:27am | #6

   'A naturally occurring eucalypt' according to one site, there are about 500 species native to Australia, many of which are commercially harvested. If we can get down to a botanical (or even a common) name I may be able to help.

   Don 

1. 
   Kevin | Aug 22, 2003 05:22pm | #9

   Don,

   Lyptus is a hybrid of two specific Eucalyptus species that is plantation grown in South America. Here's a feature article on it that will give you the scientific names and all that stuff: http://www.iswonline.com/wwp/wom/lyptus.shtml

   Regards,

   Kevin

1. 
   dondownunder | Aug 24, 2003 08:00am | #18

   Kevin

   Thanks for that - one of its  parents, rose gum, I'm familar with - used here as a flooring & general (but not a mainstream,) cabinet timber. I'm not that blown away by it as we've got quite a number of related species with better figure & colour. 

   FG

   Its certainly going to durable enough for outdoor use  & you'll probably be able to chuck out your season ticket to the gym if you decide to throw it around in the workshop.

   Don

2. 
   eddiefromAustralia | Aug 25, 2003 03:32pm | #20

   Don,

   It's a hybrid of Flooded gum (rose gum) and a eucalypt native to East Timor.

   Should finish quite nicely under any common finish - pores are fairly tight but definitely visible.

   Cheers,

   eddie

   edit:  replied fairly quickly but saw that you've already gotten this info.

   As well, Flooded gum is prone to surface checking - I'd aim for timber closer to quarter sawn to avoid this.

   Edited 8/25/2003 8:38:45 AM ET by eddie (aust)

1. 
   forestgirl | Aug 25, 2003 07:26pm | #21

   I've found it interesting that several of the posts in this thread seem to provide strong cautions based on the characteristics of one or the other of the "parents" of this wood.  Jon will probably correct me if I'm wrong, but a hybrid is produced generally to maximize the positive characteristics of the breeding species while minimizing the negative.  Any number of breeding species combinations are researched until the right pair is found. 

   I've not worked with Lyptus(R) yet, but assuming the hybridization research was done correctly, and economic consequences would encourage this, it seems the likelihood of one of these nasty parental characteristics showing up in the Lyptus(R) is about the same as a mule being pint-sized like his/her donkey daddy.forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

1. 
   jonsherryl | Aug 25, 2003 08:06pm | #22

   "<<it seems the likelihood of one of these nasty parental characteristics showing up in the Lyptus(R) is about the same as a mule being pint-sized like his/her donkey daddy."<<

   Hey, Forestgirl, do I detect some female chauvinism here? How do you know it wasn't that rickety ol' mare that dumped the bad genes into this mix? :O) 

1. 
   forestgirl | Aug 26, 2003 08:07am | #25

   A mule's daddy is always an a$$ (so to speak).  The offspring of a female a$$ and a male horse is known as a hinny!

   So, Jon, other than that what did you think of my comments?  (ooooo, maybe I shouldn't ask)forestgirl -- you can take the girl out of the forest, but you can't take the forest out of the girl   ;-)

2. 
   eddiefromAustralia | Aug 25, 2003 10:59pm | #23

   Hi Jamie,

   I wasn't going to reply but then I thought that I'd shed a bit more light, explaining what they've hybridised out in my understanding.

   Rose gum is prone to insect attack, leaving borer channels and 'squiggly borer' marks through the wood, which limits it's use in furniture here.  I understand that the hybrid is more resistant to attack.

   Cheers,

   eddie

   edit:  and, straight from the horse's/mule's mouth

   Weyerhaeuser’s product literature states that the naturally occurring hybrid of the two species was chosen “for the qualities of extremely fast growth and the ability to add clear, incremental and dense hardwood.” http://www.iswonline.com/wwp/wom/lyptus.shtml

   Most eucalypt is dense (typically close to the density of water, 700-1050 kg/m3), apparently it's grown on a 15 year cycle (very very fast).  Usually, anything that is grown this fast is prone to instability, but there is always an exception to the rule.  I've never seen 'Lyptus' but you'd notice checking when you're buying the timber if it's present.

   Edited 8/25/2003 4:10:22 PM ET by eddie (aust)

   Edited 8/25/2003 4:26:22 PM ET by eddie (aust)

1. 
   Kevin | Aug 26, 2003 01:06am | #24

   You make a good point about the checking, eddie. The Lyptus that I've seen in a local supplier's warehouse didn't have any checking. But, Weyerhauser does say that the stuff is difficult to dry from green to furniture grade dryness. I would assume that a lof of it probably does end-check and that the checked ends are cut off before it's imported up here.

   Regards,

   Kevin

4. 
   ron61 | Aug 22, 2003 09:06pm | #14

   I just built 6 sample doors today at work from the Liptus - every ones saying "In appearance it rivals cherry, alder and mahogany. "

    I don't think its does its very plain looking its has some red in it and that's about all I would say it has in common cherry and mahogany & nothing like alder. I think its just a sales pitch.

   The wood is very dense and heavy it reminds me of working with hickory it mills ok but you need sharp cutters and knives. Takes longer to sand also.

   I haven't a clue on how it finishes but will in the next week or two. It just seems so dense might need to be dyed. 

   As I said I think its very plain looking no grain pattern very straight . I would rather spend a little more money and use the real Cherry or Mahogany.

   I'm not impressed with the stuff I like to see grain pattern in wood. 

   Who Ever Has The Biggest Pile Of Tools When You Die Wins

1. 
   Kevin | Aug 22, 2003 10:58pm | #15

   Well.... I've been working with Lyptus and Honduran Mahogany all morning trying to get to where the control sample looks. Here's a digital image of the control sample I'm trying to match: http://www.knoll.com/media_lib/surf_zoomer.jsp?st=Wood&fn=SWTKF.jpg&ff=Techwood%20%28Closed-Pore%29&ct=Mahogany&sn=Mahogany&pu=&c=Brown&p=SWTKF&g=&uc=null

   Here's what I've learned thus far: Lyptus stains very much like White Oak in that the pores take color readily but the wood is so dense that it's actually much harder to stain that I had anticipated. I also have a piece of African Mahogany that we discarded from the sample process because it's Quarter sawn and the grain just doesn't look right.

   I started out just using M.L. Campbell wipe stains, just to get an idea of where to begin with the dye stain that I was pretty sure I'd need to use. I first tried Acetone-based dye stain, with poor results on the Lyptus. I couldn't color the wood enough. Then I mixed up some water-based dye stain hoping that the water would open up the Lyptus enough to allow the wipe stain to bite into it better as well as to get it to accept more color from the dye. That helped a lot! But, using the same exact process and materials on both the Lyptus and the Hon. Mahogany netted me a piece of Lyptus that still isn't dark enough (it looks washed out...) and a piece of Hon. Mahogany that's a bit too dark, but pretty close to what I'm shooting for.

   As for the Cherry look-alike... Based on my experience thus far I don't think the Lyptus will make a very good Cherry substitute unless only dye stain is used. While it's a lot less porous than Mahogany, it is porous enough (larger pores than Cherry!)that pigments immediately settle into the pores, leaving a distinct contrast like you'd expect to see using a pigmented stain on Mahogany or Oak.

   Regards,

   Kevin

1. 
   ron61 | Aug 23, 2003 01:05am | #17

   How about pics. of the Liptus you have stained like to see what they look like.Who Ever Has The Biggest Pile Of Tools When You Die Wins

1. 
   Kevin | Aug 24, 2003 06:43pm | #19

   Ron, I'll try to get a pic or two on Monday if I can.

   What I can tell you in the meantime is that the chunk of Lyptus lumber I have has heartwood in the center of it and a thin ribbon of sapwood running down either side. After switching to water-based dye stain I wiped some pigmented solvent-based wipe stain on and the sapwood turned out darker than the heartwood. That tells me that the sapwood is quite a bit less dense than the heartwood. Usually on a hardwood like Cherry, the sapwood is hard to get as dark as the heartwood because the difference in density is so small while the natural color of the wood is so great enough to pose a small problem. Typically sapwood like that has to be deliberately dyed darker or something similar to get it to look uniform with the heartwood. That certainly isn't how the Lyptus worked out, though. I definitely was not expecting it's sapwood to turn out darker than the heartwood. (I'd be interested in Jon Arno's thoughts on this...)

   Going into the whole color matching thing I was very optimistic about the potential of the Lyptus to meet the specific needs of this particular job. Now... I'm a bit on the skeptical side about exactly how versatile Lyptus really is, colorwise. There remain aspects of the Lyptus that I still favor over the Mahogany. But, not enough to make a difference in this decision.  Before giving up on it I was able to get it pretty close to the control sample (it still looked washed out and too light). But, the darker sapwood was a definite problem because the client is wanting a uniform color. The Hon. Mahogany supplies that in spades. I thinned down the water-based dye stain formula and redid the whole thing (dye followed by wipe stain followed by a couple quick coats of satin pre-cat lacquer) and nailed the control sample color! So, I left work happy. Turns out that instead of having to ship off a finished sample in the mail Friday, the client was to fly in from Texas instead and was to get a private tour of the Portland facility yesterday with our CEO. I'm told that this is potentially a $3 million job... so, the red carpet comes out. Anyway, I'll find out Monday what they thought of my sample. But, my expectation is that the Lyptus option is thoroughly DOA and we will be going with Hon. Mahogany even though there may be issues with getting a steady supply of it in lumber form (apparently the veneer is no problem to get).

   In conclusion, if Weyerhaeuser were able to supply select Lyptus *heartwood* lumber (i.e., no sapwood!), and especially to supply it in quartersawn lumber as well as the existing flat cut, it would be a much more user-friendly wood to work with from the finisher's point of view. Until then I'm not sure how many jobs, if any, it will receive serious consideration for from our company. It has lots of potential IMHO. But, the quality (i.e., color issues) of the existing lumber is too variable to present a consistent enough substrate for anything approaching high-end wood finishing. With it's naturally pinkish hue, I can't see it getting very popular in just a clear finish either. Who wants pink furniture or pink floors? Although... left to oxidize in the sun it turns to a lovely shade of medium-dark brown that is very attractive IMO. But, who has the time to age the damn stuff in finished form just to get it to look the right color? And how would you get it to all oxidize evenly in the first place? At some point they're gonna have to address the finisher's needs if this stuff is to really supplant Mahogany in the domestic market as the gameplan seems to be that it will. Time will tell. But, regional hardwood suppliers don't have good things to say about how responsive Weyerhauser is to the market's needs. Their philosophy seems to be that Lyptus is the proverbial better mousetrap and, having imported it, all they need to do is wait while the world beats a path to their door. LOL put me down as a skeptic on that philosophy working in this case.

   Regards,

   Kevin

   Edited 8/24/2003 2:01:45 PM ET by Kevin