Replies

1. 
   SteveSchoene | Jan 23, 2008 08:50am | #1

   I'm afraid you have picked a challenge.  Softwoods like the fir take stain with pigment very badly.  If parts are flatsawn, such as the panels, such a stain would give a really wild effect with the softer less dense early wood accepting stain well, and the dense, hard late wood rejecting it giving sometimes dramatic contrasts.  Not the library paneling effect. If the wood is quartersawn you don't get wild grain you get stripes when you use a stain containing pigment. 

   Consequently, I recommend a dye to begin with for these doors.  Mixed from water soluble dye powder the darkness is determined by how dilute or concentrated you mix the dye.  You apply it liberally--a sponge is good--wiping off excess with the same sponge.  Dye penetrates the late wood almost as much as the early wood so that dramatic grain effects are toned down even though the dye does not obscure grain like a pigment might.  Be sure to arrange your finishing space so you can do both sides of a door in close sequence to each other.  You are putting a lot of water on the door and you will reduce warping by doing both sides equally.  You can't really tell how the dye will look until you apply top coat over it.  Before that happens the dye can appear very dull and lifeless and even quite a different color than it will under a finish.  You do need to experiment on very similar wood to determine the dye concentration and whether you like the color effect. 

   You can then apply your top coat after the dye has dried.  A satin varnish would make a good durable finish over the dye. 

    

1. 
   fausonj | Jan 23, 2008 09:53pm | #2

   Steve,

   Thanks for the tips.  Is dye difficult to apply or is it just largely a matter of getting the consistency you like and wiping on with a sponge and working quickly?  Is there a particular brand of dye that you recommend?

   Thanks,

   Joel

1. 
   JeffHeath | Jan 23, 2008 11:21pm | #3

   Adding to what Steve said, transtint dye is an excellent choice.  It's easy to mix, and easy to apply.  I use the 1 quart Mason's jars for canning food, and 1 qt. of distilled water mixed with 1 oz. of dye.  You can adjust darker by simply adding more dye.  I spray my dyes, but you can certainly apply it with a sponge, as Steve suggested.

   As Steve said, a pigment stain is not the right choice with the wood you've chosen.  You'll never get the color even from board to board across the door.

   Transtint dyes are available at your local Rockler Hardware, Woodcraft store, and also online at http://www.homesteadfinishing.com.

    

   Jeff

2. 
   SteveSchoene | Jan 24, 2008 01:59am | #4

   I think dye is easy to apply without a lot of special technique needed, just be neat since the only thing that can really go wrong is if you splash some on a dry area and don't get to it with the sponge until it has dried.  Then you get an "overlap" that takes a bit of futzing to make unnoticeable. 

   I prefer the TransFast powdered dyes or the Lockwood water soluble powered dyes to the TransTint.  The reason is that TransTint dissolves in too many solvents, which means it can redissolve when top coats are applied over it unless they are sprayed.  TransTint is great for creating dye toners, however. 

   Edited 1/23/2008 6:02 pm ET by SteveSchoene

1. 
   fausonj | Jan 24, 2008 04:57am | #5

   Thanks for all the information on the dyes. My wife was doing some research on this today, and found that a lot of people recommend putting on a wood conditioner first, then applying the stain we like. What do you all think? Is dye a better way to go than a conditioner/stain combination? Or is it purely a matter of preference?Joel

1. 
   SteveSchoene | Jan 24, 2008 05:41am | #6

   Conditioner can work, but it's an iffy thing, and can still leave "stripes" and wild grain with fir, just not as dramatic.  I think it works better eliminating "blotchy" effects on woods that are prone such as maple.  It also limits the darkness of the color you can get.  If the stain turns out too light there is not much you can do to fix it short of using the stain as paint.  If you go that way, use the conditioner, let it completely dry, even if the label doesn't recommend that, and then for the stain use a gel stain.  Bartley and General make decent gel stains. I'd avoid MinWax products.   

   I find the dye a lot easier to control to get exactly the effect I'm looking for and more reliable.  If it's too light you can apply another coat after the first dries, though it's better to find that out while doing test boards and make the concentration stronger. 

   Dye is (mostly) reversible.  You can lighten dye that is too dark (at least some) by wiping the dye with the solvent that was used to dissolve it.  You can even use a chlorine bleach to (mostly) remove a dye that you don't like.  Dye is very common among professional finishers and factories, but for reasons I don't quite understand, not as well known by amateur finishers. 

2. 
   fausonj | Mar 10, 2008 09:59pm | #7

   Steve,

   Do you recommend mixing the dye with shellac and then applying it?  Or do you always just mix it with alcohol or water and then apply it and then apply whatever finish coat you desire?  I ask because I picked up some transtint dye at my local Woodcraft store this past weekend and the fellow there advised me to mix the dye with shellac and then apply it.  Specifically, his advice was to first apply a 1-pound cut of shellac to the board and let dry prior to applying the dyed shellac to the board.  He said that the 1 pound cut of shellac will help ensure a non-blotchy even coat to the dyed shellac.

   I did this to decent effect but because I mixed the dye with shellac, the finish is coming out glossier than I would like.  So I was thinking of just mixing the dye with alcohol, rubbing it on unfinished wood, and then finishing with varnish.  In your experience, do you even apply an initial coat of shellac to avoid a non-blotch finish?

   Thanks,

   Joel

3. 
   SteveSchoene | Mar 11, 2008 09:23am | #8

   I usually use powdered water soluble dye mixed directly on the wood.  TransTint probably works better mixed with the shellac since because it is soluble in water, alcohol, and oil, any top coat finish applied over it by hand is likely to lift the dye into the finish material.  Mixing with the shellac won't lessen blotchiness, it's more likely to increase it slightly.  The powdered dye only dissolves in water to any large degree so top coats other than waterborne won't have much impact. Dye mixed in alcohol dries too fast to apply by hand, it's a spray on product.   

   The glossiness of the shellac containing dye isn't a problem.  The gloss will entirely disapear when you apply a coat or two of satin varnish as your top coat.  The varnish will go over shellac quite well.  If you haven't used dewaxed shellac I would avoid polyurethane varnish or waterborne finishes directly over it.  But traditional resin varnishes will be ideal for that situation.   

4. 
   fausonj | Mar 11, 2008 07:27pm | #9

   Thanks, Steve.  I appreciate the advice.

   I will purchase some satin varnish and apply to the shellac to see what it does to the gloss.

   Two other questions:

   1: In your experience, does varnish tend to darken the piece?

   2: Do you generally sand in between dye coats?

5. 
   SteveSchoene | Mar 11, 2008 09:15pm | #10

   Most of the darkening will have occurred with the dye and when it was "wet" with the shellac.  The varnish will have a small additional darkening effect and can darken over the years a bit more.