I am building a cradle for a new grandson out of cherry. Some time ago I found the following article referenced by someone here in Knots Forum:
http://www.wwch.org/Technique/FinishesRL/OilFin.htm
Any one have any experience with such on cherry?
Any advice for how I should finish the cradle? I don’t want to stain it. Just put a good protective finish on it.
Thanks,
Alan – planesaw
Replies
Hello, again, Alan. FYI, The link you provided does not work.
Good choice, cherry. That's my preference as well. Up to now I've used Bartley's gel varnish for cherry projects. I machine sand through 220 grit and then hand sand with 320. Two or three coats of gel varnish gives a delightful finish...smooth as a baby's patootie!
This weekend I saw some furniture finished with Waterlox that seemed kind of nice. And another craftsman who said he's using a finish from Sherwin Williams that is a catalized (maybe pre-catalized) lacquer.
I have clicked on the link as posted and it comes up every time for me. When you get a chance, please try again. Maybe there is another way I can post it if it doesn't work for anyone.
alan -- planesaw
Works for me, too.
I suggest you wipe your cradle down with mineral spirits. This is the color you will obtain with a clear finish such as varnish or shellac. I have NO experience with lacquer so won't go there. Cherry will darken naturally with age anyway. If you would like the grain to accentuate you could wipe with boiled linseed oil and let dry thoroughly. A final finish of 4-6 coats of a wiped on 50/50 mix of varnish (non-poly for the nicest "depth" look) and mineral spirits will give a durable and beautiful finish. Of course, I would strenuously suggest you do the entire process on a scrap of your cherry.
Alan,
Click on this link - Cherry Finishes - to look at an assortment of finishes on cherry. The web page is in development so it'll take a while to load the pictures, and the descriptions aren't in place yet for the existing samples, but if you like one of the finishes I can give you the steps.
Paul
Paul,
Have you ever tried heated "boiled" linseed oil?
This is what Thomas Moser uses and I am wondering if it is less prone to blotchiness than just linseed oil at room temperature. In his book he says he heats it to 130 degrees F and hand rubs in several coats over a few days. He says it soakes it up like a sponge when heated.
I will be gluing up a large computer desktop next week and was thinking of using heated linseed oil. Do you have any expereince with it?
Regards,
Bill
I've used a process similar to what you described (i.e., heating BLO). I prefer a natural, but aged, look for cherry and use the Sun (plentiful here in Florida) to accomplish this. I place the parts to be finished (sometimes assembled, sometimes prior to final assembly) on horses in my driveway and apply BLO/Mineral Spirits 50/50 while the parts are soaking up the rays. This process seems to even out the absorption of the BLO/MS -- wipe on a good coat and then wipe it off after 10-15 minutes -- then keep wiping it as you see areas of the cherry 'releasing' some of the oil. A couple of coats of BLO/MS and several hours in the Sun gives the cherry a great look.
After final assembly, I then topcoat the project with a couple of coats of clear gloss poly and final coat of satin poly.
B&B Woodworking
How long do you keep the cherry in the sun?
I'm sure I will need several times as long in the March sun in New Hampshire.
Thanks,
Bill
No doubt it may take exposure over several days up in your area. I can see a dramatic change in color down here in a period of 6-8 hours. If it's an assembled project, it has to be turned occasionally to achieve equal exposure. Even after exposure to the Sun for several hours, there is still further development to the patina over a longer time frame.
Bill Arnold
B&B Woodworking
If you leave your project out in the sun be sure to check it periodically to keep it clear. I remember reading somewhere that someone left a table top out in the sun to darken. Along came the paperboy who placed the paper on the table. A couple hours later the top was nice and dark except for where the paper was. Not good news.
I've made cherry tops with heated linseed oil for the finish as well as others with poly. I regret I only used oil and wax on my dining table. It looks great but is not durable. It requires constant upkeep. My kitchen table and my computer desk have poly and look great and are extremely durable. No water rings.There are more old drunkards than old doctors. Ben Franklin
I regret I only used oil and wax on my dining table. It looks great but is not durable. It requires constant upkeep
Why not remove the wax thoroughly and put a number of coats of wipe on varnish to make a durable table top finish.Gretchen
I actually did end up removing the wax and applying a couple coats of a 3 part finish. Boiled Linseed oil, gloss Poly, in equal parts and a slightly lesser amount of odorless mineral spirits. It wipes on, you let it sit for a while and then wipe off the excess. This is basically the same finish Sam Maloof uses.There are more old drunkards than old doctors. Ben Franklin
Two years ago, I toured the Thos Moser factory in Auburn Maine and spent a little bit of time in the finishing department. Moser does use boiled linseed oil but it is a commercial variation delivered in 55 gallon drums. While it is a commercial formulation, I was told it did not vary much from the consumer variety.
The drums are heated to approximately 130 degrees F and the blo is sprayed on. Each piece is then wheeled (everthing is transported on mill carts) to a station where folks with white cloths wipe down the entire piece. The next day (and sometimes later the same day depending upon the rush) a second coat is sprayed on. Again it is wiped down and is followed the next day with a carnuba wax and polishing - hand and power. For what many people might consider minimal finishing for consumer furniture, Moser gives a lifetime warranty. And they have been doing this since the late 70's. And they are doing commercial items like college libraries with the same product - a growing part of their business.
I prefer Tried and True finish - I heat it in a glue pot with indirect heating - and apply thin coats to the cherry surface. On flat surfaces large enough to do it (like tabletops), I use a cheap shower stall sqeegee to ensure even delivery and a thin coat. I usually put a minimum of 3 coats, with 4 0 steel wool between coats. I've not been disappointed and the cherry naturally mellows with time.
After posting this, I went to the Moser site to double check my memory - and I was wrong about the temperature - Moser uses 170 F indirect heat. Check out their website - they have a shop tour and talk about the finishing process:http://www.thosmoser.com/home/index2.php
Edited 3/11/2004 9:56 am ET by EDGREGG
Have you ever tried heated "boiled" linseed oil?
Bill,
I read Moser's book while I was taking a finishing class and was intrigued. However, my curiosity was not sufficient to overcome my reservations about potential fire hazards, nor was the instructor's.
As a compromise, we obtained a "point & shoot" thermometer and measured the temperature increase while sanding-in an oil finish. I recall there was a measurable increase in temperature during vigorous sanding, but I can't find the temperatures in my class notes.
If you haven't tried sanding-in an oil finish, try it - you'll like the results!
Message 15377.4 includes a snapshot of Torrey Pine with a sanded-in oil finish.
-Jazzdogg-
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.
Edited 3/11/2004 12:55 pm ET by jazzdogg
Wow. Fantastic information. Samuel may arrive earlier than scheduled so I am moving the project along as quick as I can. I told my daughter and son-in-law the cradle may not be finished before Samuel arrives as I want to make sure the finish has had time to dry and "cure" an adequate amount of time before she places a newborn in it.
Any advice on how long the finish should "cure" before it is used?? Few days? Week? Two weeks? I realize the answer may be contingent on the type of finish, but if use the BLO or Watco Danish Oil, what would you advise?
Thanks for all the discussion and advice.
Alan -- planesaw
Hi Alan,
I plan to let mine sit for 30 days after the gel varnish is done. In my case, Nicholas is not due until the end of April so I have time...
Lofton
Alan,
I'll see if I can find my notes from finishing class and do a cut & paste for you over the weekend that covers the details of applying a sanded-in oil finish.
-Jazzdogg-
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.
Alan,
As promised, I dug up the notes I took on the oil finishing process for you - they're pasted below. Let me know if you have any questions.
APPLYING A SANDED-IN OIL FINISH USING LIBERON FINISHING OIL
SURFACE PREPARATION AND FINISHING
PUTTIES:Although it is better to repair a broken or missing piece of wood with a scrap of the same species (preferably from the same board), "putties" can be used. Three differend kinds are marketed:
Oil-Based
Water-Based
Solvent-Based
The acetone solvent will begin to evaporate as soon as the container is opened, despite your best efforts to promptly seal the container immediately after use; acetone is a highly volatile compound with extremely small molecules, and it is a tenacious escape artist -- it will find and escape through any irregularity in the container’s seal. Scrupuluosly cleaning the mating surfaces of the lid and container before resealing the container can help minimize these losses.
One classmate suggested applying a layer of plastic wrap across the top of the can before reinserting the lid to act as an additional barrier to prevent solvent from escaping. She did not know, however, what effect acetone and other solvents might have on plastic wrap.
Some manufacturers (e.g., Woodpatch) place the labels on their cans upside-down to enourage consumers to store the product with the lid facing down, which helps thwart solvent evaporation. The instructor adds a small, sacrificial, quantity of acetone to the container before resealing, and stores his cans bottom-side-up.
If a previously-used can of putty has begun to dry out, it can often be rejuvenated if it is still pliable by mixing in additional solvent.
Although putties are best reserved for projects that will be painted, stain-grade projects can include some putty if judiciously applied and finished. In either case, however, it is important to read the labels of both the putty and the finishing products to ensure they are compatible.
A shop-made putty made from same-species sawdust and a few drops of finish (e.g., shellac) can be used in inconspicuous areas, however, the limitations endemic to manufactured putties pertain to shop-made putty as well. Shop-made putties using glue and sawdust are best limited to painted projects.
Putties seldom match the color of the wood to which they are being applied, and do not absorb stains and finishes consistent with the way the adjacent wood fibers absorb them. Many wood species change color with age, while putties do not. When putty is used in a project that will be stained, oiled, or otherwise remain visible when finished, a bit of camouflage can be achieved using artist’s brushes, artist’s colors, and stain, to emulate the coloration and grain patterns of the surrounding wood fibers.
Putty can be difficult to apply without contaminating wood fibers in the area surrounding the repair. These smears will be visible when "clear" finishes and stains are applied. One technique that can minimize this kind of damage, is to apply blue painter’s tape before applying putty: When installing mouldings that will be face-nailed and puttied, first apply painters tape, then nail through the tape, then apply putty through the hole in the tape. When the tape is removed, the area surrounding the filled nail hole will not have been contaminated by putty smears.
DENTS & CRUSHED FIBERS:
Damage to a workpiece during the construction process seems all but inevitable. A dent (compressed wood fibers) can be repaired by applying moisture and heat directly to the dented area, causing the wood fibers to swell and expand to almost their original volume.
Start by lighltly scraping the dent and the area immediately surrounding it. Then, apply a few drops of water directly to the dent and allow it to absorb into the wood fibers for a few minutes. Next, dampen a small area of a clean cloth and apply it directly over the dent.
Using a clothes iron set to high, apply heat to the dented area through the moist cloth with the pointed tip of the iron, taking care not to press the iron into the wood. Avoid the temptation to lie the iron flat against the wood -- the objective is not to "iron the wood," it is to apply heat and moisture only to the dented area in order to achieve localized swelling of the wood fibers.
The instructor demonstrated this technique by inflicting four dents in a board. He then scraped two, leaving two unscraped as a control. After circling the dents lightly in pencil, he steamed the dents. Those that had been scraped were virtually invisible, while the unscraped dents were observable and could be felt.
SCRAPING AND SANDING:
As the instructor has mentioned before, people tend not to notice perfection, but readily notice imperfections: an award-winning project depends as much on the avoidance of conspicuous faults as it does meticulous joinery and application of finishes. When a finish has been successfully applied, people will have an urge to touch your project; to have their sense of touch confirm what their eyes have observed, and to fully appreciate the tactile qualities of the surfaces.
It makes sense for the artisan to employe these same senses during the finishing process. Use your fingers to inspect the prepared surfaces; can you feel defects or irregularities that may be observable when finish is applied? Installing an inspection light at an angle to the workpiece will cast shadows that will exagerate surface imperfections; once found, they can be corrected.
One of the most common finishing errors is the failure to completely remove mill marks before sanding commences; these kinds of imperfections will be amplified when the finish is applied. This is because the scalloped surfaces presented by mill marks expose segments of end-grain which absorb stains and finishes at a different rate than face or edge fibers.
While scraping or planing removes mill marks quickly, leaving a surface that is ready for 200-grit abrasives, the wood fibers are compressed and burnished to some extent. Tangentially, Japanese temple builders maintain their chisels and planes in such a super-sharp state that the wood fibers are compressed and burnished so effectively that water is repelled, making the application fo wood finishes unnecessary.
When finishes or stains will be applied, it is important to use abrasives after scraping and planing to prepare the wood fibers to receive the finish. Abrasives cut across the wood fibers, creating a condition in which the wood surface is analagous to myriad wicks, thirstily absorbing stains and finishes, and allowing them to penetrate more-or-less evenly and uniformly.
When water-based stains or finishes are applied, the wood fibers absorb the water swell and the grain is raised, resulting in a rough surface. Deliberately raising the grain before applying water-based products minimizes this effect. After sanding through 220-grit, apply water to the wood surface and allow it to dry for 24-hours. Then, re-sand with 220-grit abrasive to remove the raised fibers, and apply the water-based product.
A glue size (a solution containing 90% distilled water and 10% hide glue) applied before finishing can serve as a barrier coat that limits the absorbtion of successive finish layers, and can help reduce uneven absorbtion exhibited in end-grain and the blotching that can occur when stains are applied to certain species.
OIL FINISHES:
The two oils commonly used in the manufacture of oil finishes are Linseed oil and Tung oil. Linseed oil is derived from the flax seed, while Tung oil is extracted from the nut of a Tung tree. Without further treatment, these oils would dry too slowly to make them suitable as wood finishes.
Metallic driers are added to Linseed oil, which is then heated, resulting in product commonly known as Boiled Linseed Oil. Tung oil is heat treated to achieve polymerization - a state in which the molecules are bound together in long strands.
In 1989 the A.Q.M.D. (California Air Quality Management District) mandated changes to reduce VOCs (Volatile Organic Compounds) common in many wood finishes. These regulations resulted in the reformulation of many time-tested products that had achieved superior results as wood finishes, and stimulated the inordinate growth of water-based products.
Prior to this time, Watco’s Danish Oil products were favored by many fine woodworkers for their ease of application, short drying times, and superior finishes. The reformulations mandated by the A.Q.M.D. in 1989 yielded products that were generally inferior to pre-’89 products and did not dry properly.
After experimenting with many oil finishes in search of a product with characteristics comparable to the venerable Watco Danish Oil, Liberon Finishing Oil (a Tung oil-based product imported from England), was selected as the best oil finish. It has some alcohol added to achieve shorter drying times.
Minwax Antique Oil Finish (in the red can) also provides acceptable results, although it does not dry as quickly as Liberon Finishing Oil.
Other Liberon products also work exceptionally well, including their French import Black Bison Clear Fine Paste Wax (available in neutral and several tinted shades), and their steel wool, an un-oiled product that is graded for consistent texture and scratch pattern, and is clearly superior to other steel wool on the market.
NOTE: Steel wool should not be used in conjunction with water-based finishes, as steel particles will become embedded in the finish and will create unsightly black specks in the finish. When using water-based finishes, synthetic abrasive pads are available in several color-coded levels of abrasiveness. Scotch-Brite is one example. While bronze wool will not rust as steel, it is very fragile and disintegrates quickly.
NOTE: It should be noted that an oil finish, while very suitable for the exterior of fine furniture projects, is not recommended for the interiors of cabinets, drawers, et al. Even with ample air circulation, an oil finish will not cure properly, and an unpleasant odor will linger long after the project has been completed.
SPONTANEOUS COMBUSTION:
Before describing the process of applying an oil-based finish, a discussion of spontaneous combustion is warranted. Simply stated, spontaneous combustion describes [oil-soaked] materials bursting into flame: a very dangerous condition that should be avoided at all cost.
Three components are required for combustion:
Fuel
Oxygen
Heat
An oil-soaked rag, piece of steel wool, or similar item provides the fuel, and there is abundant Oxygen in the atmosphere. As The instructor likes to say, as oil products polymerize, "All of those little molecules racing around, bumping into each other generate heat." A rag lying flat readily gives off this heat to the atmoshpere and combustion temperature is never achieved. However, in a folded rag or wad of steel wool, the heat is not allowed to disipate -- it is contained in folds and pockets, and the temperature continues to build until combustion is achieved.
Because spontaneous combustion is so likely, and the dangers so severe, caution should be exercised to prevent an occurance. This is achieved by closely monitoring all oil-contaminated products during use (never leave an oil-saturated applicator unattended), and by promptly disposing of oil-soaked rags, unfolding them and spreading them flat on a concrete or dirt surface, away from all combustion sources, until completely dry.
When the oil has thoroughly dried, you are left with a "rag frisbee" that can be safely placed in a trash container.
APPLYING AN OIL FINISH:
Each finishing session will require seven to eight hours when applying a hand-rubbed oil finish; between half-an-hour to an hour to apply and sand-in the oil, followed by six hours of monitoring and surface maintenance. This isn’t a project to start at 10:00 p.m. unless you are prepared to be up all night.
Work on only one or two reasonably-sized surfaces at a time - don’t attempt to apply the finish to an entire project at once. One of the benefits of an oil finish is that there is no need to finish an entire project at once, or to maintain a wet edge. You can stop and start as you please, as long as you thoroughly remove all slurry before it dries and becomes thick and unworkable.
After scraping and sanding to 220-grit, prepare silicon carbide wet-or-dry sandpaper in three grits:
220-grit
320-grit
400-grit
Tear or cut the abrasive into sizes that will be convenient and manageable when folded in thirds.
You’ll also need to prepare an ample supply of clean, absorbent, rags with which residual slurry can be removed.
Wet the wood surface with finishing oil, rubbing it in with your hands until the surface fibers are saturated. The instructor keeps his finishing oil in a squeeze bottle (with an airtight lid), for easier and better-controlled application.
Start with 220-grit and sand the oiled wood, with the grain, until a slurry of oil and sawdust is created. Once a slurry has been created you can sand in circular or figure-eight patterns. Work one small area at a time, until the surface is consistently smooth and the slurry has been packed into the open pores of the wood.
After perhaps ten or fifteen minutes, the surface(s) you have been working will be consistently sanded to 220-grit, and the slurry will have begun to thicken. Now it’s time to wipe all remaining slurry from the surface of the wood with a clean rag. The instructor uses manacurist’s orange sticks, wrapped in a clean cloth, to remove all traces of the slurry from corners and areas containing detail and tight radii.
This needs to be accomplished before the product becomes too dry and gummy to remove easily - with Liberon Finishing Oil you have about twenty minutes. With other oil finishes, such as Minwax Antique Oil Finish, you have a little longer - perhaps three-quarters of an hour.
You will need to monitor your project for bleed-back over the next six hours. Bleed-back is the term used to describe residual oil that will ooze from the wood pores up to the wood surface as the finish polymerizes. Bleed-back will appear as small dots of finish on the surface of the wood.
Inspect your work once an hour, wiping away bleed-back with a clean rag. Then allow the first coat to dry for 48 hours before proceeding.
When you have sanded the oil finish into the entire surface of the project using 220-grit abrasive, repeat the process with 320-grit, followed by a 24-hour curing period. Repeat the process with 400-grit, and allow two to seven days for the finish to cure before applying at least two thin coats of hard paste wax, waiting five or ten minutes before buffing with a white cotton rag (old t-shirt).
-Jazzdogg-
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.
I've used heated boiled linseed oil and it works fine. I bought an old electric burner plate at a flea market and used that. You heat the oil until it begins to smoke and then apply it. Make sure to wear rubber gloves so you don't get burnt. Like I said, it looks great but doesn't provide much protection.There are more old drunkards than old doctors. Ben Franklin
>> ... heat the oil until it begins to smoke ...
That sounds unnecessarily hot to me. I don't know what temperature BLO starts to smoke at, but just for comparison, most cooking oils don't smoke until they're over 300F, which definitely fire danger territory.
Nothing's going to catch fire at 130F. That's just barely too hot for me to put my finger in. A double boiler arrangement is very safe. The oil temperature will never go over 212F. The only real risk is spilling it on yourself, and anyone who drinks coffee has probably developed appropriately cautious habits to keep that from happening.
I agree with your concerns about heating the oil. I read that Moser did it this way years ago. Another benefit he mentioned is that it'll cut through any wax that's on the piece. I don't think it adds much except for making it easier to apply due to the change in viscosity, as others mentioned. There are more old drunkards than old doctors. Ben Franklin
BBP,
The potential liability issues involved with heated oil were a little difficult to surmount in a college woodworking lab as you can imagine.
In truth, I am so satisfied with the results I get using Liberon Finishing Oil that I haven't felt any need to experiment with many other products or methods since finding it.
From one bassist to another, I recently disassembled my 5-string electric, completely recontouring the body, and am almost done refinishing it. Six coats of Liberon sanded in - the last coat with 600-grit silicon carbide. Now I'm in the middle of French polishing it with Qualasole. Sure looks different that it did when it came out of the factory!
BEADG,-Jazzdogg-
Whether you think you can, or you think you can't, you're right.
Funny you should mention disassembling your bass and recontouring it. I did the same thing a few years ago to my Fender Jazz bass. I cut it down to make it smaller, much like a Sadowsky. It still sounds great and is lighter and a little smaller.There are more old drunkards than old doctors. Ben Franklin
All heating BLO does is make it thinner in viscosity. By beitg thinner, it is absorbed somewhat more deeply. But, there is no affect on how it colors the wood.
I haven't used heated oil Bill. Like Howie points out, it will reduce the viscosity, but other than that I don't know what advantages it might have.
I have done a number of tests using a VERY light coat of linseed oil as recommended by Jeff Jewitt and do like the effect better than a good soaking with the oil.
I'd encourage folks to do a couple samples on a nice piece of cherry. One with oil and a topcoat and one with just shellac or lacquer to see which they like better. It's very much a matter of taste.
Paul
Paul. Thanks for showing us that web page reference. It looks as if it's going to be very handy when its completed.
My pleasure. ;)
Paul
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