Replies

1. 
   SteveSchoene | Mar 31, 2008 12:07pm | #1

   Yes, cherry will darken.  It will do it fastest in the sun.  As far as using the sun to provide a tan, 6 hours in direct sun light is fine.  The piece needes to be fully prepared for finish--the darkening is just on the surface so additional sanding will make it lighter in that place. Be sure to turn the pieces so all visible surfaces get similar amounts of sun light.  You don't want to get carried away with the sunlight.  Too much sun degrades wood surfaces giving adhesion problems for finishes. 

   The light treatment merely accomplishes something that will occur naturally over a longer period of time indoors. 

1. 
   jjohn83 | Mar 31, 2008 05:26pm | #2

   Thank you, the pieces are planed, scraped, and ready for finish right now so I am good on that part.  I remembered where I read the article after my post, but still couldn't find it.  I must have misplaced that issue of the magazine.  

   Your recommendation is about what I remembered.  I don't know where I got the shellac wash coat idea,  I guess after my drawer bottom fiasco, I was worried about the table tops deforming.   I just need a sunny day.

2. 
   jjohn83 | Apr 09, 2008 06:37pm | #3

   The recipe I've been using on cherry involves about seven steps, including two separate glazes, several coats of sanding sealer, etc.  It's a lot of work.  I don't know if this wood came a little darker, if the suntan helped that much, or that I used a garnet shellac as a wash coat, but the shade of this table looks pretty good right now.

   In fact I like the color exactly where it is, after only two steps.  I sunned it over the weekend, applied a washcoat of garnet shellac, then a thinned coat of Solar Lux walnut.  This is normally where the first glaze comes into play, but the piece is already dark enough for my taste with almost no splotching.   The main thing is that for whatever reason, it is a pleasant light brown with no hint of pink, and I understand it will continue to darken with age.  I prepared a couple of test boards last night to experiment from there.

   What would you recommend as a the next step or a finish coat?  I went thru both Jewitt's and Flexner's books last night and I guess a lacquer would be a good choice.   All I have is some spray Deft at the moment, but I do have several different types of varnish, including Behlen's Rock Hard and Waterlox, and I have several differnt types of oil.

   Can one use an oil, tung or linseed, between coats of different finishes?  I have successfully used BLO on some oak end tables, let it set for a couple of weeks and then followed with several coats of varnish, but I have always used it over raw wood.  In my present case could I use an oil over the shellac/ngr stain, and then finish with a more protective coat of varnish? This particular coffee table will probably get some hard use.  I am making it for a son setting up housekeeping after college.

1. 
   SteveSchoene | Apr 09, 2008 08:24pm | #4

   Oil can only be applied on wood that is substantially unsealed, you do apparently only have a very light wash coat that hasn't sealed the wood enough to prevent the Solar Lux dye.  Howver, In your situation oil would have no real function at all that I can see.  At this stage I would  go directly to your varnish top coat.  Either Rockhard or the Waterlox would work quite well.  Don't use sanding sealer--it will just weaken the overall finish. 

   With cherry, less is usually more anyway, since stains and dyes never really capture the depth and nuance of the colors cherry will naturally develop over a relatively short period of time.  

    

    

    

1. 
   jjohn83 | Apr 09, 2008 10:00pm | #5

   Thanks, I appreciate you taking the time to help.

2. 
   woodshoplast | Apr 12, 2008 03:40am | #6

   Steve I have started finishing a Cherry Cabinet and used Min Wax Cherry Stain # 235. It's easy and looks good but not quite dark enough. Can I mix a little Red Mahogany Trans Tint Dye in the can of Cherry stain to darken and make the color just a little redder?

   This is a cost only basis entertainment Center for family so don't want to get involved with multi step finishing. Thanks.

    

1. 
   SteveSchoene | Apr 12, 2008 04:28am | #7

   That's a good question, but one that I can't answer.  Offhand I'd say no, but for a real answer go to http://www.homesteadfinishing.com and ask on the finishing forum there if you don't find it in the dye FAQs.  That's Jeff Jewitt's site and he is the formulator of TransTint. 

   Me personally, I'd find it harder to figure out the concoction than to just make it a two step process.  For that matter with real cherry wood, if I had to change the color because the client was pointing a gun at my head,  I'd go with a dye instead of a stain with pigment.  Very easy to adjust to get to the darkness you want, and much less likely to cause blotching.  The dye won't obscure the subtle grain of cherry either. 

2. 
   RW | Apr 12, 2008 04:39am | #8

   Actually, you can almost do what you're thinking. You've already stained it. Its dry. Just take the transtint and use it as it says, with alcohol, and you can do it in very light coats and see if you can get it just a touch darker that way. Transtint is compatible with so many things, but mineral spirits bases isnt one of them. Mixing it, you wouldn't see the dye because of the other pigments, but drip some in just straight mineral spirits and it balls up.Real trucks dont have sparkplugs

3. 
   SteveSchoene | Apr 12, 2008 05:10am | #9

   Well not quite.  The Minwax has a binder that will have sealed the cherry, more or less.  Using dye, which is without binder, over the sealed surface is really tricky.  You also can't use multiple coats in that way, since each subsequent will dissolve material left on the surfaces. It's not like using it over unsealed surfaces where the penetration of one coat of dye means that the next over the dried first coat will darken without too much impact on the previous application. 

   Where things get really tricky is if the seal of the Minwax isn't complete, since in that case the dye overlay could end up actually accentuating any tendancy for blotching on cherry.  It's something I do do on occasion with mahogany, where I want to take pretty ordinary honduran mahogany and get it to look more like the mahogany you see on some museum antiques.   

   If he already had the stain in place on the project, instead of just the test boards, which I have assumed, you could use a toner, but it wouldn't be just a dye, it would have to be a toner which adds the dye to a binder.  Shellac would work well in this situation.  But if you still have the choice, dye over bare wood is MUCH easier to get right than using a toned finish, at least if you aren't skilled and equipped to spray the toner. 

4. 
   woodshoplast | Apr 12, 2008 04:32pm | #10

   Yeah, unfortunately I already stained two raised panels. Had used this same finish before and was happy with it. I just forgot how light it was before darkening over time. Got in a hurry because I had to finish the panels before assembly. Now guess I'll just live with it as know it will darken over time. Thanks for your help.

5. 
   woodshoplast | Apr 12, 2008 05:39pm | #11

   Actually I may just waste those two panels I've already stained. This is a big entertainment center. Just don't know how much work I want to put into a free family project.

   I will be using a lot of Cherry ply with solid Cherry framing, raised panel sides and doors. I'm familiar with Jeff's dye and stain process on solid Cherry using gel stain. I sure don't want to wipe all that gel stain.

   Don't know if that process works using a liquid stain. Will I need to dye the plywood as well if I have a mix of solid Cherry and ply? After dye, would I change the color of shellac or stain to get a little darker reddish tone?

   Could I use a reddish color shellac as a sealer and then Cherry stain? That would probably be easier than dye, shellac, stain, and maybe would prevent blotching.

   Appreciate any help.

6. 
   SteveSchoene | Apr 12, 2008 06:55pm | #12

   Whether applied as a liquid or as a gel, pigmented stain requires wiping.  And, if you want to avoid blotching, it requires a pre-stain conditioner or shellac washcoat using a very light shellac. 

   If you are starting from bare wood, and if you feel you need a one-step color system, I would just use a water soluble powdered dye and apply it directly to the bare wood.  It will blotch much less than stain with pigment so a wash coat isn't needed under it.  Then apply your top coat directly over that, as long as it isn't a waterborne finish.  If it is waterborne, you would need a coat of dewaxed shellac over the dye to keep the water in the finish from lifting the dye. 

   Do enough tests on scrap of both the solid and plywood to determine how concentrated to mix the dye.  Remember that you can't really tell how the dye will look until you have applied a coat or two of your intended top coat.   

   That's your simplest coloring schedule other than my preferred shedule with cherry which is no stain or dye, just a oil based wiping varnish for the top coat.  That will "blotch" a little, but blotching is really just the figure in the wood, not a finishing defect.  I'd always rather not darken cherry except to let it darken naturally. 

7. 
   woodshoplast | Apr 12, 2008 10:56pm | #13

   Thank you very much! Now if I can figure a way to salvage the two big panels I stained, everythings good.