Replies

1. 
   SteveSchoene | Feb 27, 2008 07:52am | #1

   No, not really.  I don't see how you could shellac just the particular area you have in mind without a visual demarcation.  And, in general you can't put an oil over a sealed surface--it just lays on the surface to get gummy. 

   What kind of tung oil are you planning to use?  I ask because many tung oil finishes are not tung oil but are really oil/varnish mixes or wiping varnishes.  (Formby's is a wiping varnish.)

   Frankly, I don't like real tung oil.  It takes several days for it to dry between each coat.  Each coat must be sanded lightly before the next coat is applied, and it will take 5-6 coats to get an even sheen.  If you try to rush it, or don't hold your mouth right, there is a chance that you develop a "frosted" look that isn't easily fixable.  Besides, you won't see much, if any, difference between a finish using pure tung oil offering almost nil protection, and an oil/varnish finish with significantly more protection against spills. 

    

1. 
   BossCrunk | Feb 27, 2008 04:13pm | #2

   Steve, how do you know this project will even have a horizontal surface that needs "protection" from spills?

    

   Edited 2/27/2008 8:15 am ET by BossCrunk

1. 
   SteveSchoene | Feb 27, 2008 07:14pm | #6

   Doesn't matter much, since I would doubt that very few people could pick out a tung oil finished surface when set next to an oil/varnish finish on the same wood.  Both are in-the-wood finishes with no surface build and depending on the particular varnish and particular oil in the mix would have very little color differences either immediately or over time.  Perhaps the tung would yellow a small degree less than a mix with BLO but hardly noticeble over the natural color changes that walnut will experience over the years. 

   So if you get an extra benefit and give up almost nothing except using a very finicky finishing material you might as well go with the more reliable material.  It's still an "oil finish". 

2. 
   BossCrunk | Feb 27, 2008 04:25pm | #3

   I'll trust your decision to use an oil finish.  They're beautiful.  Wood is not damaged by occassional exposure to a little water.  Film finishes are damaged by water.  Trees grow outside.  They get rained on.  People use water on bare wood all the time - water is sponged on wood to raise the grain before sanding.  Water based paints and other finishes are used on wood.  An occassional spot of water, glass ring or otherwise won't even show on an oil finish - just wipe it off.  It's not until you apply some sort of film finish that blushing and white rings occur.

   As far as the knot is concerned, don't worry about it.  Apply the tung oil per the schedule I'm sure you've already worked out.   I'd probably apply wax after the oil has thoroughly cured and buff it to death.  The area around the knot will not look "dry" once you're finished.  Re-wax with a solvent based wax a few times a year.

   There are a huge number of very fine woodworkers, living and dead, that would think it blasphemy to automatically slather a varnish on a really nice piece of Walnut.  Varnishing needs to be in your finishing arsenal but not every project needs it.

    

    

   
   

   ---

   Edited 2/27/2008 8:34 am ET by BossCrunk

1. 
   SteveSchoene | Feb 27, 2008 07:25pm | #7

   Waterspots do occur on oil finishes--its common.  BLO and pure tung oil provide almost no protection against this. Oil/varnish mixes provide a bit more protection.  Sure you can wet bare wood to raise the grain, but try just putting some big drops around on the surface.  Then you will see the spots.  I like oil finishes on walnut but oil finishes should be made with oil/varnish mixes not pure oils and particularly not with pure tung oil. 

   You almost never see water spots or white rings on varnish unless old (75 year type old) and deteriorated or unless the film has been scratched entirely through to the wood.  Lacquer and shellac are susceptible to white rings.     

1. 
   BossCrunk | Feb 27, 2008 07:44pm | #9

   "I like oil finishes on walnut but oil finishes should be made with oil/varnish mixes not pure oils and particularly not with pure tung oil." I'm allergic to absolutes when it comes to finishing, especially methodologies that have been around for centuries.

1. 
   SteveSchoene | Feb 27, 2008 09:01pm | #10

   I'm still not sure I understand what your objection is to using an oil/varnish mixture to achieve an oil finish other than saying oil/varnish mixes have not been used for as long a time. 

   When used on walnut, just exactly how do pure oil finishes differ in appearance from finishes made with oil/varnish mixes? 

   Do you think they are harder to apply?

   Do they need "refreshing" more often than pure oil finishes? 

1. 
   BossCrunk | Feb 28, 2008 12:33am | #11

   I don't object to it at all.I object to dismissing other options out-of-hand.I love oil only finishes, hell I love wax only finishes, I love beautiful varnish finishes, I like thin varnish finishes. I unabashedly believe that I am one of the best French polishers around. Seriously. In a bigger city, I believe I could make a living doing only shellac for other furnituremakers. My training, and the significant professional influences in my woodworking life, tended toward the minimalist end of the spectrum but I didn't want to be a one-trick pony.

   Edited 2/27/2008 4:33 pm ET by BossCrunk

2. 
   SteveSchoene | Feb 28, 2008 03:02am | #12

   Somehow I think you are missing the point--if you can't tell which is an oil/varnish mix finish and an oil only finish, but one has even marginally superior performance characteristics, then it is simply logic to prefer the oil/varnish, not limiting oneself.  It's not usually so simple.  Most of the other choices among the various finishing options involve trade-offs.  I just don't see any trade off involved in using oil/varnish instead of pure oil for the total finish. 

   Pure oil does have some important uses.  One coat of BLO is excellent for popping grain under film finishes.  Tung oil is great when used with resins to make high quality varnishes. 

   Of course there are places for lots of other finishes.  I have often recommended shellac as a finish, including French polish, just as in other applications wiping varnishes are great, and in yet another particular marine spar varnishes.  Sometimes paint is better than any clear finish. I even would use polyurethane varnishes in a (very) few applications.  That's not the point.  The only place we seem to disagree is whether it makes better sense to use an oil/varnish mix like Watco instead of pure tung oil on some walnut.   

3. 
   BossCrunk | Feb 28, 2008 02:44pm | #15

   "I just don't see any trade off involved in using oil/varnish instead of pure oil for the total finish."

   Other people do, however. You'll have to find some way to get your head around it.

   I'm a fan of Watco and other preparations that don't build unless many applications are made but I'm not going to dismiss an oil only finish and certainly not a tung oil only finish.  I'm a fan of history.  The first finishes I applied were plain oil finishes.  They were an unabashed success.  I owned the routines.  I tucked that knowledge in my vest pocket and proceeded to learn how to pad on shellac, apply lacquer by spraying and brushing (my least favorite and I don't do lacquer anymore - I sub that out but could fall right back into stride if I needed to), apply varnishes, rub out, etc.

   It never occurred to me to remove something from my repertoire when I learned something new to add to my repertoire. 

   The notion that a particular finish is 'better' is quite foreign to me.  Better, perhaps, for certain styles and in certain applications.  But a blanket assertion of "better?"  Nope.  Sorry.

   Your logic - "why the heck not if you can't see the difference" I'll let you ponder for a moment....

   Edited 2/28/2008 10:01 am ET by BossCrunk

2. 
   backroadpartner | Mar 01, 2008 09:11pm | #24

   Replying to you 2/27 message, 12 coats of tung oil were applied over a 7 month period. The grain around the knot is still absorbing as much oil as I might apply. So I just left it alone.

3. 
   frenchy | Feb 27, 2008 06:48pm | #4

   backroadpartner,

     Why not shellac it?  Shellac is insanely easy to do and is more durable than oils are..

     Besides I love the way shellac makes the color and grain of black walnut just explode in brillance. (pop is too small a word) 

      Shellac is faster by about a zillion percent than oil finishes are. plus it's safe!

    You've been eating shellac coated pills and candy all of your life..

4. 
   backroadpartner | Feb 27, 2008 07:07pm | #5

   To all who replied. Thanks for your thoughts. The piece already has ten coats of pure tung oil sold by the supplier in Quakertown, PA (Old Paint Co.?) applied over a 7 month period with some sanding between coats with 220 grit paper. Wax will be the end of it.

1. 
   BossCrunk | Feb 27, 2008 07:40pm | #8

   Cripes, I'll bet that thing is gorgeous.

1. 
   backroadpartner | Feb 28, 2008 06:15am | #13

   Yes it is. The planks were cut from the same trunk and I joined them at 8' length. The table is for a son living in New York City whose dining room will only accommodate a 7' table. I damn near cried having to take 5" off one end and 7" off the other. I built the table last summer on Ocracoke Island, North Carolina and brought it to Pennsylvania in January, leaving it in dry coal fired heated space for two months. Sure enough, there is a hairline crack all the way through at one end. At least I got to put the butterflies in it here instead of in a New York apartment. The table top and base weigh almost 150 lbs. The connectors to attach the top to the rails are brass buttons affixed with threaded brass inserts on the underside of the top. The legs have plastic faced height adjusters threaded into triangular plates in order to level the table against an uneven floor space.

1. 
   philip | Feb 28, 2008 10:56am | #14

   I don't think folk should be allowed to talk about such things unless they provide pictures-just ain't right (;). The table and top sounds delightful- could you let us SEE it?Philip Marcou

1. 
   backroadpartner | Feb 28, 2008 04:23pm | #17

   Dear Sir: I have not taken pictures as yet but plan to do so today as soon as I take the table to NYC, haul it up three flights, wax it and attach the top to the base. Backroadpartner.

2. 
   backroadpartner | Mar 01, 2008 06:50am | #21

   If anyone wants a picture of the table send an email address to me at [email protected]

3. 
   backroadpartner | Mar 01, 2008 06:52am | #22

   send your address to me and I'll forward a picture. [email protected]

2. 
   BossCrunk | Feb 28, 2008 02:46pm | #16

   Sounds lovely, really does.

1. 
   backroadpartner | Mar 01, 2008 06:49am | #20

   Send your email address to me and I'll forward a picture of the table.

5. 
   Clapper | Feb 29, 2008 04:40am | #18

   I have been using an oil finish which I read about in Fine Woodworking some years ago. I think Sam Maalof gave the formula. One part varnish ( I used McCloskey's) two parts boiled linseed oil & three parts turpentine. Mix, shake well & let sit overnight. Works well on walnut for me. Have also used on gunstocks. I also read someone else who recommended a coat of Watco as a first cost followed by VLT. Ithink you might enjoy trying the mixture.

1. 
   backroadpartner | Mar 01, 2008 05:32am | #19

   I have used a three part linseed oil, turps and varnish finish on pieces that have vertical surfaces. I have a walnut mirror frame I finished that way in 1965 and it is still perfect. The current application is a dining room table and I wanted a finish more nearly impervious to water and wine spills so 12 coats of pure tung oil have been applied. The precise issue I raised concerned the grain that faces upward at the area of a knot which keeps absorbing the tung oil without end. Ultimately, I said 'screw it' and delivered the piece yesterday as is was. I still have to insert a hickory butterfly and am considering filling the voids in the top with pewter if I can figure out how to do so without splatter on the surface. Thanks for your interest.

1. 
   Clapper | Mar 01, 2008 07:15pm | #23

   I generally just soak the project then let it stand about an hour before wiping it dry. Then let it cure for several days. One that turned out particularly nice needed 8 coats of oil for a really nice finish.