Replies

1. 
   Bear | Apr 03, 2005 11:03pm | #1

   Very nice looking work. Even if you dicide to use the 5/8 baluster, two per step will meet code if your tread is 9". The traditional baluster is square at the bottom but only 5/8 round at the top which leaves 3 7/8 space which is code complyent.

   Bear

1. 
   MarkRD | Apr 04, 2005 12:06am | #3

   Thanks for the compliment. Tread is more like 11" can I still use 2 balluster?MarkMeasure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.

   Edited 4/3/2005 5:11 pm ET by Mark

2. 
   joinerswork | Apr 03, 2005 11:52pm | #2

   Mark,

   If you have a lathe, you could make your own bamboo turnings, like the windsor chair legs and spindles. Use any wood you feel is strong enough for the job. Maple, hickory, oak, finish to match floor color.

   Regards,

   Ray

1. 
   MarkRD | Apr 04, 2005 12:06am | #4

   Sorry no lathe - I've found web sites in the past that sell dowels of many materials and sizes however...Thanks,
   Mark

   Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.

1. 
   Bear | Apr 04, 2005 02:53am | #5

   It doesn't look like its 11" treads, you must subtract the overhang from the tread above. Common treads are 10 1/4 with a 1 1/4 overhang, net 9" run per tread.Bear

2. 
   Bear | Apr 04, 2005 03:16am | #7

   Another thing I wanted to throw at you, are you having this inspected or not? If you did the work with a permit, your orginal house was build to older codes which were probaly 6" spacing instead of the current 4". With no record of when this work was done the staircase would be grandfarthered and your spacing would not be an issue.Bear

3. 
   hammer1 | Apr 04, 2005 03:03am | #6

   Things are looking very nice so far. Obviously, your starting riser is less, due to using the original stingers and adding a floor? It must be an optical Illusion, that the second riser is looking taller than the rest. If it is taller, this is a tripping hazard.

   There is quite a bit of work ahead of you with the railings. Many codes require that a 4" sphere cannot pass through any of the spaces between posts and balusters. Because the width of treads are limiting, you sometimes have to go with three balusters per tread. There are very few inspectors in my area that will look at this code rule. They are primarily interested in certain plumbing and electrical issues. The four inch space may not be enforced. The reason for the rule concerns young ones getting their head through the space.

   Design issues are always a matter of personal taste. You have a fairly traditional look going on, so I'm thinking that, painted balusters may make a complimentary look with stained posts and railings. There are two typical railing and post approaches. Railings over the post or post to post. Over the post generally require some additional rail fittings, especially when making the transition from the stair angle to the platform landing. Railings are installed parallel to the angle of the stair, when you hit a platform, in order to maintain a 38" rail height, you need a landing newel with a longer block in post to post. These are taller than your starting newels. With over the post you need a gooseneck riser.

   Most dowel top balusters are tapered. When you try to fit a railing down over them, the taper makes the job much easier. Even with the taper it is a challenge. The holes in the rail have to be perfectly perpendicular or things will jam. Ordinary dowels are not very strong. There will be no shoulder at the tread and without a taper on top, you will have a hard time getting things together. Using rail lags at the tread intersection will probably split a dowel. If you didn't plan ahead for where your balusters will be placed, you may find that the tread nails or screws are going to be in the way. This is a bit of a complicated stair for a beginner. Trying to use materials that are not made for the application can add another degree of difficulty. Paint grade balusters aren't too expensive.

   Square balusters and a ploughed rail are the most forgiving. You can set your posts and rails, then place the balusters one by one. Most ploughed rails take 1 1/4" balusters. Traditionally, the lead baluster is in line with the riser. If your finished tread is 11", you don't count the overhang in figuring the spacing, you can get the 4" - spacing. Not counting the overhang, makes the tread 10 1/4" +-. Subtracting the thickness of the baluster 1 1/4" leaves 9". 9" divided by 2= 4 1/2". 4 1/2" less 1/2 of 1 1/4" = 3 7/8". You would notch the starting post to come in 1 1/4" past the riser to maintain spacing.

   It's hard to tell how far out that existing post comes out. It looks like it is in a bad position on either side. I think I would use rail hangers around it rather than try to use it as a newel. This will establish where your starting posts go. You also have an issue going up on the left, where the wall sits back. At least on that side you only need a railing. Better planning would have addressed these issues before the finished treads and risers were done.

   I hope this helps a little. Some of my first ideas were using bamboo cane and placing dowels in the ends. Another thought was using iron or wood in an oriental pattern. I've done some railings similar to the one at Monticello in a Chippendale lovers knot pattern, but those would be a bit heavy if you kept the spacing under 4". It would be an easy installation though. There are several styles on this building, the lovers knot is the fourth one down on the left. http://www.monticello.org/gallery/dependencies/sdependencies.html

   Beat it to fit / Paint it to match
1. 
   MarkRD | Apr 04, 2005 04:11am | #8

   Hammer,

   Things are looking very nice so far. Obviously, your starting riser is less, due to using the original stingers and adding a floor? It must be an optical Illusion, that the second riser is looking taller than the rest. If it is taller, this is a tripping hazard.

   Yes the first riser is short because of the flooring - all the other risers are the same. It is an optical illusion (or lens distortion?)

   The treads (per Poster Bear) are 9.25"

   There is quite a bit of work ahead of you with the railings. Many codes require that a 4" sphere cannot pass through any of the spaces between posts and balusters. Because the width of treads are limiting, you sometimes have to go with three balusters per tread. There are very few inspectors in my area that will look at this code rule. They are primarily interested in certain plumbing and electrical issues. The four inch space may not be enforced. The reason for the rule concerns young ones getting their head through the space.

   I am aware of the spacing requirements and I do plan to meet it, though I will not have it inspected.

   Design issues are always a matter of personal taste. You have a fairly traditional look going on, so I'm thinking that, painted balusters may make a complimentary look with stained posts and railings. There are two typical railing and post approaches. Railings over the post or post to post. Over the post generally require some additional rail fittings, especially when making the transition from the stair angle to the platform landing. Railings are installed parallel to the angle of the stair, when you hit a platform, in order to maintain a 38" rail height, you need a landing newel with a longer block in post to post. These are taller than your starting newels. With over the post you need a gooseneck riser.

   Our upstairs staircase uses the goosneck approach. I'm hoping to avoid it for this setup.

   Most dowel top balusters are tapered. When you try to fit a railing down over them, the taper makes the job much easier. Even with the taper it is a challenge. The holes in the rail have to be perfectly perpendicular or things will jam.

   Great point. If I go with dowels I'll know now to taper them.

   Ordinary dowels are not very strong. There will be no shoulder at the tread

   I've found two suppliers that make dowels of many different hardwoods - including oak, cherry, walnut etc. At least one of the suppliers will cut a tennon on them if requested (and worst case, I could build a router fixture that would do the same). So, potentially, I could purchase 5/8 dowels with a 1/2" tennon on the bottom and a taper on the top. With tennon on the bottom, I would "just" have to drill the stair treads to match the railing - then I could glue the dowels into the treads.

   This is a bit of a complicated stair for a beginner. The whole project has been one long learning experience - I even got to hand nail much of the bamboo flooring when the rented floor nailer broke late Saturday (drill, nail, nailset, drill, nail, nailset...)

   Square balusters and a ploughed rail are the most forgiving.

   I really don't like plowed railings for inside applications.

   It's hard to tell how far out that existing post comes out.

   That post is going to be a pain in the neck and I probably will use rail hangars. I can deal with the jog in the wall (on the left) with an attractive spacer on the wall (oak)

   Better planning would have addressed these issues before the finished treads and risers were done.

   Much of what I'm dealing with was already there - the jog in the wall and the post. The post is load bearing and couldn't be moved.

   I hope this helps a little. Some of my first ideas were using bamboo cane and placing dowels in the ends. Another thought was using iron or wood in an oriental pattern.

   I too considered the bamboo with plugs in the end - I also looked at Iron but my wife didn't care for it.

   Thanks for your thoughts - your post was great. I can't imagine how much effort the taper on the dowels will save me... Any thoughts on dowels with sholders that match up with holes in the railing?

   Best,

   Mark

   Measure it with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, cut it with an ax.

   Edited 4/3/2005 9:15 pm ET by Mark

1. 
   hammer1 | Apr 04, 2005 07:22am | #9

   After I set my posts, I lay the railing right on the treads and mark the angles to the posts. This can be hard if the treads are not all in line. If the posts are plumb, the top will be the same as the bottom. After the rail is cut, it's easy to mark the baluster locations on the treads and just use an engineer square to transfer the center marks to the railing. I'll then turn the rail end for end and place it upside down on the treads to drill the holes. I find a spade bit with the long tip helps start the hole on the angle. With a taper, the hole can be a bit larger than the actual tip of the baluster. You really need to take your time to make sure the drill is perfectly plumb. I tried those portable drill presses but they don't have a long enough stroke to be of much use. Just make a story block to use as a guide. If you have a shouldered tenon on top, it would have to be cut on the angle to match the rail. Maybe a chamfered tenon, like they do on pole fence type rails, would work. Getting all the balusters in their holes, both in the rail and the treads, is always difficult. It only takes one to screw you up and pop out the ones you already have in. The length of the balusters is critical also, with a shoulder on top. With tapered ends, you can push the top in a little deeper and pull them down to seat in the tread hole when you have trouble. I usually use a brad at the top of the baluster to keep them from rattling later. Personally, I think you would save yourself a lot of frustration if you bought your balusters. There are many options including some plain round tapers. The tops of manufactured balusters aren't a straight taper, they are actually straight sided for a couple inches before they start to taper. That little fudge factor sure comes in handy. You have to make sure you get the right length ballusters, you can trim them an inch or so but not much more.
   Beat it to fit / Paint it to match