Replies

1. 
   peter28 | Jul 03, 2008 04:40am | #1

   Hi Peter,

   It's funny, I thought of you the other day and here you are. I hope things are well with you.

   I see you've been busy. Ash can be fun to work with. I've done some interesting things with it like dyeing it a reddish black and then staining it a very rich black, wash coat it and then put a very light cream color filler in the pores. This type of talk makes the brown furniture people cringe but was it fun to do and quite dramatic.

   An option to that is to use a golden brown dye, wash coat(with shellac) and then a dark warm brown filler. The pores will be a bit deeper in color than the surrounding wood. Subtle but dramatic.

   Another option, dye first, seal well, sand and then apply a glaze. It's a little easier than using pore filler. However on that note, I'll thin my filler much thinner than usual, so it's the consistency of milk. I'm not looking to fill the pores to make the surface flat, just to add the color (colour) to them.

   Or, dye and apply an oil stain right over it. Easier still.

   Have I overloaded you yet?? 

   A simple oil finish can be fun on this type of piece too. If you want it dark, do a deep colored dye first, when dry apply whatever oil finish you like. Since the dye alone will not develop color in the pores by itself the oil will help you here. 

   What type of oil finish did you have in mind?

   The drawer face on the interior is pretty nice. Want to make it 3D? Apply a deep colored dye, let dry, lightly sand the surface with 400, and then hit it with a clear oil.

   I finally got my website up and running. Petergedrys.com. Take look when you get a chance.

   Too bad you're so damn far away. We could have some fun with that piece. When you start to narrow down what you're going to do let me know. Be sure and make some samples first.

   Have fun.

   Peter

1. 
   Peter Charlesworth | Jul 03, 2008 05:04am | #2

   Peter,

   Thanks very much for your various ideas...I will need a little time to chew them over properly!  Then I'll get back to you.

   As it happens, I saw mention of your website on another blog, and I have already scoped it out!  I thought the website itself was very elegant indeed, and some of the restoration examples you have there are simply stunning.  The workshop and surrounding environment looks great!

   I'll be in touch.

   Regards,

   Peter

1. 
   Peter Charlesworth | Jul 10, 2008 04:22am | #3

   Dear Peter,

   I have had a think about the various options you proposed, while doing a little final preparation on the piece in the past few days.  It's funny, it is now over 2 years since I finished the cupboard and it has been sitting on the side during this period, while I wondered about the "best" finish.  Now that I critically evaluate it again, I have found various minor woodworking blemishes that I didn't notice before!  Perhaps my eye is improving.

   With regard to your suggestions, I am inclined to go with the dye + glaze combination, partly because I now have a small handle on the glazing concept, after the first job that you advised me on.  Also, I thought the the appropriate glaze might nicely add to the "antique" look, when worked into the quirks.

   I already have a selection of water-based stains, in Walnut, Warm Walnut, Antique Oak, Cedar (quite orange), Claret, as well as Yellow, Black and Red.  I have done some samples on surplus ash, but I am not sure that any of mine correspond to the "golden brown" of your suggestion.   I wondered about trying a mix of (say) Walnut with Yellow.  What do you think?

   I will also try your suggestion on the internal drawer, perhaps using a color (!) that contrasts with the main piece.

   Should the whole piece be sealed with shellac before dyeing?  I am a little concerned that the turned spindles in the door could take up too much color.  What color glaze would be right?  Burnt umber...raw umber?  It seems I have so many questions, I may as well post the piece to you and have you do it!

   I look forward to some further gems, at your convenience.

   Regards,

   Peter

    

1. 
   peter28 | Jul 12, 2008 03:59pm | #4

   Hi Peter,

   I wouldn't seal ( washcoat) with shellac first. You want this wood to drink in the dye. The only place I would washcoat is the end grain that is on the spindles. This is at the top and bottom of the radius on the turning. However, if you have it sanded to 180 or 220 it may be alright as is. Do one or two and see what your eye tells you. You can always re-sand this small area without a problem.

   A couple of color suggestions;

   Basic theory states that orange with drops of black will produce a rich brown. If you do this, be very careful with the black. That bright orange you have will turn deep with just drops at a time. Since blacks tend to be stongly blue and blue is the "compliment" to orange, you have basic color theory at work.

   Claret with a drop or two of black. Add this sparingly to your yellow.

   Warm walnut with drops of yellow added.

   A very easy golden brown can be made using a yellow with drops of violet. Again, basic color theory. Purple is the "complimentary" color to yellow and will neutralize it.

   This is one of the basic steps we do in color class. We first do it with water colors on a palette. Then I have them do it with dyes and apply it to wood.

   You've heard me use the term "brown furniture" Many woodworkers don't think that violet would be used in a formula. It doesn't make sense at first. To drive the point home I'll take a piece of tiger maple that I dye with violet first. I always see horror in the faces. Then I'll come over it with a bright or medium yellow and suddenly it's a beautiful golden brown. Now I have believers and it's just basic color theory. 

   When I do color tests, I take cheap white paper plates, seal them with a coat or two of shellac (blonde) and let dry. I'll spread the color mixture I am testing on this first. This allows me to "see through" the color and determine if it is too green too orange etc. Now I can adjust accordingly. When I'm happy with what I see, I'll try it on a wood sample. This saves time and a lot of wood!

   As far as glazing goes, I often use burnt|raw umber mixtures. To keep it on the "warm" side use more burnt in the mix. To dull it down or "cool " it use more raw.

   We'll get into that more when you're ready.

   Have fun.

   Peter

1. 
   Peter Charlesworth | Jul 13, 2008 04:57am | #5

   Peter, thanks for your further comments. 

   Your paper plate technique makes a lot of sense.  Do you have any tips for "converting" the decisions made there, with small amounts of the relevant colors, into the necessary proportions for the whole job?

   I think I got a bit lucky this time however, because I had forgotten that I also had another color in the dye stain range called Honey Glow, formulated for the typical color of many native-wood colonial antiques found  here in NZ.  It turns out that Honey Glow is a rather nice golden brown, so I will take the easy option and go with that for the base color of the cupboard, except for the drawer.

   After raising the grain and sealing the end grain parts of the spindles (and the edges of the shelves?), I plan to rag and/or brush the stain on.  Is spraying on with, say, a small plant mister acceptable in this situation?

   Regards,

   Peter

2. 
   peter28 | Jul 15, 2008 03:31am | #6

   Hi Peter,

   Mixing to proportion is not that hard, but I can't give you exact measurements. This is where common sense rules. When mixing and testing on a plate be aware of what is dominant and what is secondary. As I mix a large batch I'll test it on another plate and compare it to the first one that I liked and adjust accordingly. Just write down your proportions as you make a big batch and you can repeat it as required.

   One thing I always do is make at least 30% more than I think I'll need (even though water dyes go a long way) We know gravity never stops, right? Knock over your color once and you'll be glad you have more.

   You can use a plant mister if you'd like. Just remember to use plenty of dye. Whenever I see someone use it for the first time, they use it VERY sparingly. Do just the opposite and flood it well. You really don't have to worry about lap streaks like you would with an alcohol dye.

   One exercise I do with students is to get a large piece of plywood and start to dye it. I'll stop them about halfway and let the dye sit for about 30 seconds and then start again. When they add the dye to the new wood, where it meets the wet edge, there is a distinct lap line. However, rub over it for a few seconds with the dye and the lap line blends without problem. It's just that easy.

   You know, with all this correspondence, I expect big things!!

   Keep in touch.

   Peter

3. 
   Peter Charlesworth | Jul 15, 2008 04:02am | #7

   Thanks Peter, I'll get back to you when I've done the dyeing, to discuss the nuances of the glazing step!

   Regards,

   Peter

4. 
   peter28 | Jul 15, 2008 05:42am | #8

   Just for fun;

   Take that golden dye you have, and in a small glass of water sprinkle a pinch on the top and watch it settle

   You'll see three colors, a bright orange and............ a pair of compliments.

   Peter

5. 
   Peter Charlesworth | Jul 17, 2008 04:52am | #9

   Peter, the dyeing is complete, and a pretty nice "golden" brown has been achieved.  There are one or two darker blotchy areas, which could be where I have overcoated with dye?  The dye has also revealed, in a more coppery brown color, some small areas of animal glue contamination (oops) which I had not observed before coloring!

   Also, I think that I may have overdone the sealing of the spindles, since the demarcartion lines where the shellac went onto the swells of the turnings are very visible.  Perhaps if I paper back gently, I can restain?

   I look forward to your comments, and further suggestions for the glazing stage.

   Regards,

   Peter

    

6. 
   peter28 | Jul 21, 2008 03:47am | #10

   Peter,

   Next time before you dye, give it a wash with denatured alcohol near the joints. That will show you where the glue lines are.

   Was your dye premixed or powder form. If powder, try the test I mentioned and tell me the two colors besides orange that you see.

   You can sand back the edges a little to "open" it up a bit prior to dyeing again. You may consider using a damp rag to wet the spindles to remove a little color beforehand. Let it dry and then sand. When you are ready to dye them again, instead of wash coating with shellac just re wet the end grain with water and then dye. it should be pretty even to the eye.

   I would suggest you seal the surrounding area with shellac prior to doing the re wetting. If you are not careful and wet the adjacent areas the color will pull there too.

   The glazing is where you can have a lot of fun. I've already mentioned burnt and raw umber to you. To deepen a burnt umber a bit of van dyke brown will darken it and "cool" it at the same time. USE YOUR IMAGINATION WITH THE COLORS.

   Play around on the paper plate again for color intensity.

   Small amounts of glaze  can alter a ground color nicely. You can also do a second glaze after the first has dried.

   When I blend a glaze the norm is to blend with the grain. There are times after doing that I'll back brush towards a stile to deposit the slightest bit along the edge. It makes for an older, and been around for a while look. 

   A great reference book for glazing principals is

   Professional Painted Finishes; Ina Brousseau Marx.

   Watson-Gupthill

   It is well worth seeking out and reading.

    I was once critiqued after a 3 hour finishing demo at a large conference by someone that stated as to glazing;

    " this is getting dangerously close to faux finishing"

    I still chuckle at that one. When you need to color match, get yourself out of a jam, re grain a piece of plywood that was sanded through etc. etc., you'll find out just how valuable a skill it is.

   Have some fun with it. Just be sure and practice and remember, blending and softening is the key.

   Keep me posted.

   Peter

7. 
   Peter Charlesworth | Jul 21, 2008 04:52am | #11

   Thanks very much for those comments and suggestions Peter.  I will do a little remedial work and then get on with the glazing process. 

   The dye I used was premixed, so although I did the test as you mentioned, the water stayed a uniform color!

   I'll be in touch.

   Regards,

   Peter

   PS I forgot to check.  Should I washcoat the whole project before glazing?

   Edited 7/21/2008 4:31 am ET by Peter Charlesworth