I am in the process of building face frame kitchen cabinets, with cherry faces and fronts and a hard maple butcherblock countertop. It is the first time i’ve used these woods, and i’m trying to figure out the best way to finish them. We’ve decided that rather than staining, we’d like to let the cherry’s natural deep red pigment come out with age (even if it takes a few years). Likewise with the countertop, we’d like to leave it to it’s natural light color to offset the darkness of the cherry. I’m thinking of trying these natural oil finishes:
http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.aspx?c=1&cat=1,190,42942&p=45105
Any thoughts or suggestions for a nice, natural, durable, water resistant finish?
Jesse David
“Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before,” Bokonon tells us. “He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way.”
Replies
Jesse,
None of those finishes will give you the kind of protection that you will need from moisture and other environmental concerns in a kitchen. Kitchen cabinet doors get handled a LOT. Skin oils and foods become depostied, resulting in a gummy layer that needs to be frequently cleaned.
The only product there that comes remotely close to the durability you'll need is the varnish oil. And that will have to be applied endlessly and repeated at intervals to build a film thick enough to do the job.
Those finishes will also darken the woods, considerably.
The reference on that page to "kitchenware" refers to the fact that the finishes may be applied to wooden salad bowels, and the like, because there are no toxic solvents to worry about. (The truth is that any cured finish has no solvents left and is essentially non-toxic). But that finish does not provide anything like the protection you will need to have on wood surfaces in a kitchen.
I am doing a large kitchen project right now entirely of maple. The requirement is than the maple stay absolutely white-blonde. Maple will yellow by itself and quite a bit under a number of finishes. Nitrocellulose lacquer has been used for years in kitchens, but it will yellow maple big time - very ugly if you like the very white look of natural maple (I do).
A very good choice, given all these considerations is Acrylic-CAB lacquer (Acrylic Cellulose Acetate Butyrate). It handles just like nitrocellulose but goes on water white and never yellows. Sprayed or brushed on over its companion vinyl sanding sealer, it is very water resistant. It is as easy to repair as nitrocellulose should that be necessary in the future. Each successive coat melts into the previous just like nitrocellulose, so there are no witness lines. I consider Acrylic CAB an ideal finish.
Another choice is a catalyzed varnish or lacquer. These are really in the professional realm and take a lot of experience to learn to use. They are a lot more durable than any lacquer and waterproof. They are water white on application and don't yellow, but they don't have the clarity of nitro or acrylic CAB. Contractors like to use them because they will literally outlast the cabinets (or kitchen styles) so a re-do for a failed finish due to normal kitchen use is rare. But when a touch-up is necessary due to some unusual damage, it's harder to do than when using CAB as successive finishes can't melt into the underlying layer.
Rich
Edited 1/29/2005 4:20 pm ET by Rich14
Edited 1/29/2005 4:24 pm ET by Rich14
Edited 1/29/2005 4:27 pm ET by Rich14
That's right but If you want that Aged Natural look you could use the oil finish and Lacquer over it . I like the way oil on Maple looks and makes Cherry look awesome.
Make some samples
Ron
Thanks for your detailed response, it is much appreciated. Being that the acrylic-CAB keeps the maple from yellowing (i prefer the whiter look as well), i'm wondering if it would hinder the cherry in it's natural darkening proccess. I would like the cherry to redden with age, but would prefer the maple to maintain more of its original color. Also, do you have any thoughts on Ron's comments, below yours? DO you have any experience specifically with finishing cherry?
Jesse David
"Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before," Bokonon tells us. "He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way."
Edited 1/29/2005 9:25 pm ET by JesseDavid
Edited 1/29/2005 9:27 pm ET by JesseDavid
Jesse,Cherry will darken no matter what you finish it with. The only variable is how long? It depends on the environment, including the amount of light it gets. No surface finish will prevent the inevitable.Since the two woods are on separate structures in your project, you could apply an oil finish to either or both, then lacquer. You can just used "boiled" linseed oil off the shelf from any hardware store. The oil will darken either immediately and get the cherry on its way to its long-term deep color. The maple, if oiled will take on a slight amber hue. It will then probably become more yellow with time. But it won't get the additional yellowing effect of a yellowing finish if you use CAB lacquer. Under CAB without oil, it will stay the lightest in color.However, I have no experience with CAB lacquer on a counter top such as yours. The top will get more punishment than any cabinet front or shelf ever gets. And the finish will need frequent repair. I am not a fan of wooden counter tops. Tile, solid surface, granite, etc are the choices for counter tops for good reason.A small butcher block cutting area is OK, but such surfaces are end grain and typically get finished with nothing at all or mineral oil which is applied over and over as needed for appearance.Rich
Jesse,
Are you applying the finish by hand (brush/wipe) or with spray equipment?
Website
I'll be applying it by hand. My 'client' (aka my mother-in-law) is okay with a bit of extra work to maintain a butcherblock countertop (this'll be an edge grain, not an end grain countertop), but i'm not exactly sure how much extra work is involved, ie, how often it needs to refinished or touched up. I'd like to know if there are more durable, protective finishes that can be put on a wooden countertop without making it look like is has a plastic coating. I'd like the counter to be able to get wet, regularly, without it causing damage or staining. Perhaps wood isn't the best choice from a purely practical standpoint, but it is an aesthetic she's quite keen on. It'll be a while before i get to that stage, so i have time to research and experiment, and i'm open to all suggestions. I'm a lot more confident in my woodworking skills than in my finishing skills (i know the latter is an integral part of the former), but i also know that a nice peice of work can look like junk if it is finished poorly, so i want to make sure i've explored the best possibilities. I aslo have to be aware that some of the better finishing products might be too difficult for an amateur to do a nice job of applying, so i'll probably need to find something that is a good balance between ease of application and quality (though with more of an emphasis on quality than on ease). Also, i'd be happy to recieve links to good online information or reccomendations on books on the suject.
Jesse David
"Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before," Bokonon tells us. "He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way."
You can get a nice looking, durable finish with hand applied methods; it just narrows the field of the finishes you have to choose from. Jeff Jewitt has an article at this link - http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/pages/w00060.asp - that covers the choices and their properties. In the article, there's a link to a chart that compares the properties of the finishes, including durability.For brushing or wiping, an oil-base varnish (including polyurethane) is one of the best choices. Other choices that offer the durability you want/need are best applied with spray equipment.Some varnishes are based on a light colored oil (e.g., safflower or soya/soybean) that is not as amber as other varnishes and these are a better choice when you want to avoid adding color to light wood like maple. A couple brands with light coloring are McCloskeys Heirloom and Pratt & Lambert #38.If the butcher block will be used as a cutting surface, then mineral oil or a blend of mineral oil & wax should be used instead of a film forming finish like varnish.Paul S
Cherry Finishes
Jesse,If you are going to apply by hand, then use a varnish on the cherry. It will darken with the first coat and slowly darken with time after that. Use a dilute first coat (50% varnish, 50% mineral spirits) then thicker subsequent coats as you like.But I would use an alkyd varnish, not polyurethane. Poly can give you a "sealed in plastic look."As far as the maple counter top - no finish on Earth will protect against cutting implements and the like. Even a thick casting resin will get cut up and will look real bad. the edge grain wood will show wear very easily. I know the "look" of the maple is nice. If your M-I-L always uses a secondary cutting board on the counter to protect it, it will last much longer, and may never need refinishing.Butcher blocks are traditionally made of end grain because it is "self healing." The wear and tear actually enhances the look as opposed to destroying long grain surfaces.I don't know how large this job is. If it is at least a wall of cabinets, this is a great opportunity for you to learn to use a spray gun. You can learn to use one in the time it would take you to apply several coats of varnish to that job.It's frustrating at first. Like learning to ride a bicycle. "I can't do it. I can't do it. This thing is a piece of junk. I'll never learn this!"Then it "clicks." All of a sudden it all comes together and you actually have to try hard to do it poorly. Suddenly you're automatically compensating for all the little variables that previously would have gauranteed runs and drips at one end of the problem spectrum to a dry, gritty finish at the other end. And once you "get it" you'll look for opportunities to apply spray finish. Even low-price guns are very capable used with nothing but a small "hobby" compressor. I know. I've been there. If I can spray, ANYone can.Rich
I know this is going to scandalize everyone, but why don't you talk your MIL into a butcher block formica? It has the look and durability she wants, is much less expensive (she could pay you more), and if she tires of the look she can afford to change it.
Just a thought.
We have a maple work counter in our kitchen, and love it. Much more convenient to use the entire surface than to struggle with small cutting boards. I recommend an oil finish that isn't hurt by knives.
Our counter is edge grain. End grain is ideal, but the counter was here when we bought the house, and the edge grain has been fine in a home environment
It is wiped off frequently during use (many times a day) with a damp sponge.
Every couple months, we scrub it with a plastic or metal pot scrubber, and slop on some fresh cooking oil. Any oil not soaked in overnight is wiped off in the morning. If the counter looks dry (such as after carving a hot roast directly on the counter), that spot is cleaned and oiled, without the overall scrubbing.
We have never had a problem with the cooking oil going rancid, so haven't bothered with mineral oil. We use mineral oil on salad bowls that are used less often. ________________________Charlie Plesums Austin, Texashttp://www.plesums.com/wood
Say, Charlie, would you be able to post a picture of your maple countertop? Jesse David
"Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before," Bokonon tells us. "He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way."
You got it. The house was already 5 years old when we moved in 10 years ago. The maple counter has been used as a cutting board daily (or many times per day) for the last 10 years. (Serrated knives not allowed, normal use is with razor sharp chef's knives). It is washed with a sponge frequently as it is used, but has probably not been scrubbed for 6 weeks or more. Vegetable oil is added whenever it looks dry.
Scrubbing is with a plastic or metal pot scrubber like those in the picture, every few months. Then rinse with a sponge, slop on more vegetable oil, and the next day, wipe off any that hasn't soaked in. Easy upkeep and extremely convenient to use. ________________________Charlie Plesums Austin, Texashttp://www.plesums.com/wood
Charlie,
That is one good-looking counter.
Rich
Jesse,
check out this link
http://www.tools-for-woodworking.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=5098
This is highland hardware's Ceramithane, water based poly.
It is rated by the Kitchen Cabinet Assoc. for being a very durable finish. I can attest to the fact that the cured finish is very hard and durable. I have been using this finish for over a year now on all kinds of bath cabinets, kitchen and most recently a butcher block top.
I agree with others that nothing will protect the top if you actually use it for a cutting/chopping board, but if you use a seperate smaller board on your top then all is ok.
the satin gives a clear non-plastic look, the gloss gets you back to that plastic look. Highland doesn't list gallons, but they have it at $44 p/gal, expensive, but I really like it. Made by Muralo Inc.
Post some pcis when you are done.
Bill
Bill,Thanks for that tip. I really like the way Highland Hardware uses and completely describes everything they sell. Their description of how well the stuff goes down really interests me. Their description of all the problems associated with putting down water-borne finishes must have come from looking over my shoulder when I tried various brands! The stuff always acts like it's carbonated! Bubbles galore.Rich
The countertop is not intened to be used as a cutting board; i'm going to make her a few of those as well. It'll still inevitably take a beating, but it won't be getting sliced up, and all the teenagers have moved out of the house, so nothing too wantonly destructive. I'm appreciating these responses, i'm following them all up with further reading. After figuring out which options are best suited, i'll experiment with them on scrap before making a final decision and moving on to the real thing. I'll certainly post pics, i'm sure i'll be eager to show off. Lots to do before i get to that stage though!
Jesse David
"Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before," Bokonon tells us. "He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way."
Edited 1/31/2005 10:49 am ET by JesseDavid
Two thoughts, which may or may not have bearing on your case: The first is that cherry deepens in color much more slowly when less air-permeable finishes are used (poly, varnish, etc...). Part of that color change is oxidation, and if you limit the oxygen, you slow that part down. You don't notice it as much with varnish because the finish is yellowing as well. I have a poly-coated coffee table that has barely changed color in the 10 years since I made it. I have oil/shellac pieces adjacent to it (from the same tree, in fact) that are significantly darker, and the contrast just intensifies with time.
The other point I'd make is that cherry sapwood can also bleach out white when exposed to direct sunlight. You can sometimes get a surprising amount of cherry sapwood sneaking into your project if the wood was steam-kilned (most commercial kilns allow steam in for both cherry and walnut). If the sunlight is intense, direct and daily, even heartwood will start to bleach out.
-t
I used water based polyurethane applied with a foam brush. Three coats on the cabinets and 6 coats on the countertop. Sanded with 220 or 320 grit between coats. I would not use it next to a sink. I bought several brands and ran tests on my material by leaving water drops on overnight and setting a hot pan on them. Water drops turn white but go back to clear after being wiped up. I like Cabot's 2201 satin. We do not cut directly on the countertop and set our hot pans on the glass plate or trivets. The biggest advantage to water based polyurethane is that the countertop can be sanded and refinished in place if it starts to look beat up. Ours is now 4 years old and still looks good. I would use plastic resin glue or epoxy to glue up the wood. Our countertop is lychee and the cabinets are koa. No stain, all natural.
Your picture is missing!
Jesse David
"Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before," Bokonon tells us. "He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way."
Oops! I'll ask a friend what I did wrong and try again. Thanks
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