I am in the process of building a dining table and trying to plan the finish. The table is cherry with walnut breadboard ends. I want a finish that will highlight the look of the cherry and give a good amount of protection. The table will also be used for homework, arts & crafts projects, etc.
I am thinking of thinned coat of BLO and a topcoat of ruby shellac, or shellac followed by a wb poly topcoat. I am working on some mock ups to see how they look.
I have concerns due to the ‘blotchy’ reputation of cherry.
Is shellac alone a suitable topcoat? Is button shellac truly harder than flake? Is poly over shellac overkill?
Thanks
Andy
Replies
Shellac is fine -- to an extent. I like to use it on cherry over clear (well dried) Watco. The only issue is that it's pretty sensitive to heat, so you have to be pretty careful with hot dishes. That said, it's easy to repair.
Mike Hennessy
Pittsburgh, PA
Everything fits, until you put glue on it.
I'm not nearly as experienced as most of the guys here but my experience with BLO on walnut made me vow never to use the stuff again on anything. It darkened the wood so much I couldn't see the grain patterns anymore.
My best luck with cherry has been using two or three coats of de-waxed shellac followed by three coats of wipe-on poly. Mostly I've used Minwax poly but it has to be fresh. It doesn't last in the can on the shelf.
Respectfully,
Pete
Even though shellac has excellent repairability and a proven track record for longevity I would not use it as a top coat on a dining table that needs to stand the type of abuse you mention. Reason being that shellac does not have the same resistance to heat, water and solvents that varnish or lacquer offer. Your idea of going with shellac followed by waterbased poly is the one I prefer. Water based poly does not bring out the richness of cherry and especially walnut, hence using shellac or a natural oil as a base coat would be necessary in my opinion.
Any reason why you are not contemplating going with oil based poly/varnish? In that case the poly itself will bring out the richness of the wood.
You mention a concern about blotching cherry. Are you concerned about ruby shellac causing blotching because it has colour? Blotching is typically associated with staining but you don't mention you wish to stain the table.
I have a cherry table that I finished with Permalyn - an oil based polyurethane. It is extremely durable and yet looks good enough to be used on custom firearms of the highest quality. It is a bit expensive, but pretty easy to use. It has a sealer and finish form. Some custom gun makers use only the sealer.Brent
Senomozi,I like shellac. Maybe it's just a case of being comfortable with what I have experience with. I have used it over stain, under wb poly successfully but usually on oak. This is my first go at a large surface of cherry. This table is for my own use and any 'imperfection' in the finish is going to be all I see. I guess I am just a bit nervous about it.I want to bring out the figure and chatoyance with the thinned BLO, add a bit of color/depth with the ruby shellac, and protect with the poly. I am trying to stay more with the water based where I can to avoid the smell.I asked about shellac as a durable topcoat after reading on http://www.shellac.net/Kusmi1ButtonPic.htmland they claim the button process produces a harder product. Anyone have any experience with this?I also want to try to keep the purple color of the walnut (air dried). I am hoping the color of the shellac will help and not muddy the color.Here are some awkward photos, and yes, my shop is a mess.Andy
Edited 10/9/2009 10:56 am ET by AndyE
Hello Andy,I am not familiar with the specific shellac product you mention but my gut feeling tells me this is the same type of claim other manufacturers/providers make about their product being the best and this and that.I think the confusing aspect might be the term "hardness". The fact shellac is hard is not typically put in question. Because of its hardness it sands really nicely as a sanding sealer and it rubs probably better than any other type of film finish (lacquer also rubs nicely). However hardness is not the only characteristics that make a tough finish for a dining table. Resistance to heat, abrasion and solvents all are important to keep the table looking nice.In the end if you like shellac and you are comfortable with it then why not try it? You can always apply poly on the table later down the road if things don't work out the way you'd hope...assuming this Buttonlac product is wax free.
All good points. Their claim seems to stem from some chemical altering in production process of the lac. I am pretty sure the button lac is not dewaxed, but I can remedy that myself by decanting it. But that does bring up another point I have been thinking of. Will a layer of dewaxed shellac over the waxy allow a coat of poly to adhere? Will it dissolve the layers under it enough to pull the wax component into it? Hmm.Andy
Your cherry is going to darken over time anyway. I agree with the use of varnish all the way through, although I would wipe on coats of 50/50 non-poly varnishfor at least 8 applications. You will have a very durable finish and a beautiful "in the wood" look to your work.
Hardness of shellac doesn't necessarily equal a good top finish. As others have pointed out, it is susceptible to water and other solvents.Gretchen
Thanks Gretchen.I am researching options, and don't know what I will decide yet. What type of product to you use? Ideally I like to keep things low VOC since I work out of the basement and I find even with ventilation, those fumes travel.Andy
Andy,
I wonder why there is so much interest in using multiple finishing materials in various sequences. What is the point? The simplest approach that meets your objectives is to use only oil based varnish. The first coat should be thinned up to 50% for penetration. Subsequent coats should be thinned no more than about 10% to aid flow out. This approach will bring out the natural beauty of the wood and offer the best protection available short of professional finishes.
This approach does require some sanding and rubbing out to achieve the best sheen. I apply varnish with a good brush, building up a coating thickness with 3-4 coats. I then wet sand it level with 240 g to 320 g wet/dry paper. Then one or two more coats. Let it cure for several days before rubbing out. Wet sand starting with 600 g and proceed until you get the sheen that you want.
Good luck, Tom.
Shellac would be a fine finish if the table was going to be treated as a piece of fine furniture. It it will be used by children for homework, crafts or other generally abusive activities, then shellac may not stand up well. It can not be cleaned using the normal household cleaning chemicals and will be easily damaged by things like ball point pens, magic markers and crayons. A light coat of BLO wiped dry after 15 minutes and allowed to fully dry for 48 followed by a coat of amber shellac will bring out the figure or both cherry and walnut. Then two--three is better--coats of a oil based non-poly varnish will provide superior protection allowing easier cleaning and resistance to scratches and abrasion.
Even with the best finish, the table should be protected with trivets, coasters and placemats to maintain the longest lasting appearance.
Be aware that a waterborne finish is not too friendly to household cleaning chemicals. It would be an OK finish for a surface that will not be subject to abuse.
Finally, any finish you apply to cherry will tend to cause the cherry to exhibit its natural variation in color. That's just the way cherry is. I was up in Maine a couple of weeks ago and visited Thom. Mosher's showroom. All the cherry pieces exhibited what many would call "blotch". It's probably the reason that a dining table for 10 only went for $8,600 rather than $10,000. He uses oil/varnish finishes on most of his cherry items. Keep testing your finishing plans on scrap until you are comfortable with what you are seeing.
Thanks for the input Howard. I can't recall the last time it took more than a wet rag to clean anything off the table. My kids are generally careful, sometimes neat, and not very destructive, so I really don't need a bomb proof finish.My wife has already warned me that if I don't want the kids to use this table for their projects then I need to build another for them. I guess I will just have to treat it like a new car. Always hoping that first ding in the paint never appears.Andy
Hi Andy,
I built a dining table out of cherry and used boiled linseed oil, like Thos Moser uses, then finished with butchers wax. I've regretted it almost from the first day. While it looks great it is not durable. It has a water stain from a vase of flowers even though we've done our best to be vigilant about keeping it dry.I also have a kitchen table with a polyurethane finish that looks great but is extremely durable and has withstood the abuse of my two kids.
I recommend either straight poly or a 3 part mix like Sam maloof uses. 1/3 mineral spirits, 1/3 BLO, 1/3 poly. Saturate the surface, wait about a half hour, then wipe. repeat this process 3-6 times, allowing 24 hours between coats. This will provide decent protection although not as good as straight poly. As always, try it out on a sample piece first. Good luck.
Bleu
There are more old drunkards than old doctors. Ben Franklin
by no means am I an expert but I just made a blanket chest and used 2 coats tung oil then 4 coats oilbased poly. Came out great wet sanded with400wetpaper in between coats.
I can only say that every time I use cherry, the first thing onto the wood is a couple coats 1# - 1.5# dewaxed shellac (I mix my own from flakes - extra pale, ultra pale, something on that end), then a light touch with 3M 600g gold paper.
I have never had an issue with blotching - which is why I use the shellac seal coat. I'm not saying this is the only way, just saying what I do.
On top of the seal coat, I have used waterborne dye and stains on the cherry with no blotching (don't start on me about the stain or dye - I know, I know - my "instructions" were to get the cherry to the years-old reddish appearance without waiting those years).
I BELIEVE (not an expert at all) that most finishes are compatible with dewaxed shellac - but I'll defer to others on specifics. I have sprayed lacquer, I have used the varnish-BLO-turp mixture, no problems.
Yup, that's a fairly common technique to deal with woods the color unevenly. Generally, I first apply a light amber water based dye to even out the overall tone. Then I use a 1# cut followed by a light sanding with 400. Then I proceed with the stain--if required--or go right to the clear coat.There are a number of techniques and a new finisher should learn and become familiar with one that works for him/her. Practicing or testing on scrap it the best way to become proficient at finishing.Howie.........
".....Practicing or testing on scrap it the best way to become proficient at finishing...."
heh-heh-heh - made me think back to a couple dozen QSWO scrap boards laying everywhere before I started finishing my first project. Still have a few of them around, but for shim/test cut purposes.
Howie -
"...first apply a light amber water based dye..."
I'd like to try that - can you give me product + mix details? I gotta bunch of Transtint, but pretty sure not the right shade/tone/color.
I'll chime in and suggest you use a powdered water soluble dye (TransFast) instead of the multisolvent concentrate like TransTint. With the TransTint virtually every top coat will have a solvent that could redissolve the dye causing it to bleed into the top coat. (Not much a problem if the top coat is sprayed, however.) But with the powdered watersoluble, it dissolves very very little with shellac or other finishes so you don't get bleed, even if wiped or brushed on. TransTint is great for creating a toner.
Hey - thanks - still learning. I'll go that way next time.
Steve gave you part of the answer. As to color or tone, use an amber and dilute it until it just adds some color. Practice/test on scrap. Be sure to apply a quick coat of spray can shellac to your sample to mimic a top coat. Dyes are very dull until they are over coated. If you mix in a glass container, the color you see in the container is pretty close to what a top coated color will be.Howie.........
Howie - excellent - thanks - always learning. The day I can't say that is the day I find a new way to spend time + $$.
How long do you wait before you put something on top? (not spray the sample - the real deal).
Do you use this technique with only cherry? Others? Everything?
Edited 10/11/2009 12:14 pm ET by Spotcheck
You must let the dye stain fully dry before top coating. With a water mixed dye on a hard wood, I will generally wait 2-3 days.There is no one finish technique that fits all situations. I sometimes use the same basic technique on walnut but for different reasons. Shellac followed by gel stain is another technique that can be used of difficult to evenly stain woods.Let me suggest you purchase Flexner's Understanding Wood Finishing and/or Jewitt's Taunton Complete Illustrated Guide to Wood Finishing. Both with give you all the info you could want about becoming a good finisher.Howie.........
Howie - Thanks - I've got Jeff's book - had a class with him at Highland some years back. Refer to it all the time.
I just like to hear what other people do in situations that are exactly like the ones I face from time-to-time, and I appreciate your comments + advice.
Kent
You might consider making a sample with say a 2' x 3' piece of cherry ply or glued cherry boards, and let the family "have at it" with encouragement for a couple weeks to stress test the finish. Put on kitchen counter during meal prep (moisture, hot dishes, spills and cleaners), then on table during homework sessions (wet glasses, abrasion, ball point pen tips).
Would anyone share experience on hand applying colored shellac? I've always avoided worrying that lap marks would be unavoidable given shellac's fast drying.
Seems like dewaxed shellac reputed to be more water resistant than regular shellac containing wax.
y'all are way over my head and patients level.
for me, I'd just use a nice water based poly because you will want to refinish in a few years anyway.
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